What % of max towing capacity are you comfortable with in a 5er?

[emm-dee]

All of these numbers being thrown around are obscuring the real numbers. One only has to look at four different weight ratings:

Maximum vehicle weight,
Maximum combined vehicles weight,
Maximum towed vehicle weight, and
Maximum axle(s) weight.

As long as you are at or below ALL of the above weights you are good to go. Exceeding any one of them means you need a bigger truck or smaller trailer.

The only time payload is a consideration is it's nice to know when you are shopping for a towed vehicle. Even then, if the weights published for the trailer (either delivered weight, pin weight or hitch weight) should be considered a very rough estimate and not a real number until you get to the CAT scale. It would be nice if all RV dealers had at least a Sherline scale so we could find out what the weight would be when we drive off the lot. TT's are reasonably close (+/- 150 pounds hitch weight) but fifth wheels sometimes come in 500 pounds or more heavier than advertised pin weight.

[pprice01]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

All of these numbers being thrown around are obscuring the real numbers. One only has to look at four different weight ratings:

Maximum vehicle weight,
Maximum combined vehicles weight,
Maximum towed vehicle weight, and
Maximum axle(s) weight.

As long as you are at or below ALL of the above weights you are good to go. Exceeding any one of them means you need a bigger truck or smaller trailer.

The only time payload is a consideration is it's nice to know when you are shopping for a towed vehicle. Even then, if the weights published for the trailer (either delivered weight, pin weight or hitch weight) should be considered a very rough estimate and not a real number until you get to the CAT scale. It would be nice if all RV dealers had at least a Sherline scale so we could find out what the weight would be when we drive off the lot. TT's are reasonably close (+/- 150 pounds hitch weight) but fifth wheels sometimes come in 500 pounds or more heavier than advertised pin weight.

Thank you. This sounds reasonable. What is the purpose of the axle weight? What are you supposed to rate it against?

[Skyliner]

I'm comfortable going to 100% of max tow rating as long as no other capacity was exceeded.

I used to be a helicopter pilot and hitting 100% max engine power or flying with cargo that took me up to max weight was no big thing except power management and flight control technique was a bit more important.

Do you think airlines want to fly below max weights? They want to get as much passenger and cargo to maximize profits on that planes routes.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by pprice01

Thank you. This sounds reasonable. What is the purpose of the axle weight? What are you supposed to rate it against?

It's possible, but unlikely, to exceed the axle weight (usually rear axle) but still be below maximum vehicle weight.

For example, CAT scale weights for my setup (fully loaded trailer, full tank of gas, driver and pax, etc) shows a total truck weight of 6500 pounds. The actual weight on the rear axle is 3620. Since the max weight rating for that axle is 3,900 pounds I can only add 280 pounds (over the axle) to reach that rated weight. IF if add 280 pounds, I've reach the max rating of the axle but I am still 120 pounds below maximum vehicle weight of 6,900 pounds. So, even though I have a real remaining payload of 400 pounds I can only use 280 pounds of that number.

[shorthorn]

At a 15- 16k trailer, I really think the discussion should be DRW... I don't think any SRW has payload for a 4,000 lb pin weight!

[RubberNail]

I've towed at near 100% GCWR for years. No problems. MOST IMPORTANT thing is to know your REAL weights. Most often you are hit with the rear axle load rating BEFORE anything else takes hold. FYI, our 5th wheel, loaded and traveling, 70 gal. Fresh Water and propane, camping gear, extra charcoal, lighter logs, etc. is about 3000# over the unloaded weight. I weighed the coach when I pulled it off the dealer lot in 2008. Have weighed several times since, but not recently as I don't have any room left to have added anything since the last weigh in. I'm just under my coach GVWR and my truck GCWR. 100# over the RAWR, on upgraded tires. No weight related problems in 60-70,000 miles.

[pprice01]

Thank you all for the great information, but unfortunately, most of this appears to be anecdotally derived. Is the a government or insurance company document or website that outlines the actual method/rules used for calculating what is and is not legal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by pprice01

Thank you all for the great information, but unfortunately, most of this appears to be anecdotally derived. Is the a government or insurance company document or website that outlines the actual method/rules used for calculating what is and is not legal?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure that exists. It comes down to common sense.

If the manufacturer says the limits are such and such then it is what it is. Nowhere does anything say you should only operate at 75-80% of that limit.

If you're not comfortable with that concept then I suggest you not get on an airplane. In that industry a limitation is not a limit...it is a goal.

[CaptnJohn]

If I had the payload capacity a rear axel rating I'd tow 100% without a thought.

[pprice01]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

Not sure that exists. It comes down to common sense.



If the manufacturer says the limits are such and such then it is what it is. Nowhere does anything say you should only operate at 75-80% of that limit.



If you're not comfortable with that concept then I suggest you not get on an airplane. In that industry a limitation is not a limit...it is a goal.

So by your reasoning, this 3500 should have no issue towing the Gateway 3650BH (or any of the 5ers listed below for that matter) as its GWVR is less than the truck's max towing and the guesstimated hitch weight is less than the maximum payload.

[pprice01]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

If I had the payload capacity a rear axel rating I'd tow 100% without a thought.

Sorry, I'm not following.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by pprice01

Sorry, I'm not following.

Looks like he's saying he would have no problem loading enough payload weight to bring the total axle weight up to its maximum limit.

[pprice01]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

Looks like he's saying he would have no problem loading enough payload weight to bring the total axle weight up to its maximum limit.

Ah, interesting. Thanks emm-dee

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by pprice01

So by your reasoning, this 3500 should have no issue towing the Gateway 3650BH (or any of the 5ers listed below for that matter) as its GWVR is less than the truck's max towing and the guesstimated hitch weight is less than the maximum payload.

I think you are trying to come up with a reason not to do something...probably because someone on the internet said "never go over 80% of whatever weight". Would the towing experience be more comfortable at 80% compared to 90%? Maybe yes..maybe no. In my situation if I load my Harley in the toy hauler then I'm at 82% of GCVR. If the Harley is left at home I'm at 76%. The experience is better at the heavier weight, but that may vary a lot for other owners or configurations.

A caution to you about the numbers on your chart. Those pin weights ("reported" and "true") are NOT real numbers. You have to go to a CAT scale (or get a Sherline scale) to find the real number. Using reported pin weights can get you in trouble (but, the "true" weight listed is PROBABLY closer to the scaled weight).

BTW...good thing you are actually considering all these numbers. Just don't let them scare you. Way to many people just hook up the TT and hit the road without having a clue about what's really happening. I've seen too many ¾ ton trucks hauling trailers that I know have pin weights well over 3,000 pounds. It's a very rare ¾ ton truck that has enough remaining payload to accommodate that weight.

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by pprice01

So by your reasoning, this 3500 should have no issue towing the Gateway 3650BH (or any of the 5ers listed below for that matter) as its GWVR is less than the truck's max towing and the guesstimated hitch weight is less than the maximum payload.

You chart show pin weights at 20%. My Crusader below had dry 1953 hitch with 9964 dry weight so about 19.8% weight of the 5er on the pin. I added 1180 lbs to the 5er and the pin weight jump to 24.1% at 2780 pin weight with 5er total weight of 11380 lbs. My current 5er has 22.1% of the 5er weight is on the pin. Floor plan, where you put the stuff, how much you carry all figures in to the how much payload you need.

[pprice01]

Thanks everyone for their input, I very much appreciate it.

I tried to get AAA on the phone to discuss how they calculate whether or not my setup causes them risk due to weight - but they were less than useless giving me any information.

So the only place I had left to go was to the Dodge Dealer - which I did. It took me through 3 people before I got someone there who knew exactly what I was talking about.

Turns out that the payload ratings on the trucks have little to do with towing. The published payload ratings are for placing items in the bed like pavers or dirt, or general carrying of cargo capacity. Not towing.

For towing, I have to make sure that two things are not exceeded:

1. GCWR
2. Trailer + Cargo Max Weight

I also learned that the 2500 shares the same frame as the 3500, and the only differences in the 3500 were the Leaf Springs and the optional Aisin Transmission. These give the 3500 additional payload for hauling a bed full of dirt, etc. and the Transmission allows for an increase in HP by 30 or so.

The only difference in towing capability was that the 3500 can tow 110 more pounds, yes, 110!

Both versions have identical GCWR (25,000) and their base weights are within 40 pounds of each other. Unbelievable.

Once again, thank you all for your information, I appreciate it.

Happy Camping!


Paul

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by pprice01

Thanks everyone for their input, I very much appreciate it.

I tried to get AAA on the phone to discuss how they calculate whether or not my setup causes them risk due to weight - but they were less than useless giving me any information.

So the only place I had left to go was to the Dodge Dealer - which I did. It took me through 3 people before I got someone there who knew exactly what I was talking about.

Turns out that the payload ratings on the trucks have little to do with towing. The published payload ratings are for placing items in the bed like pavers or dirt, or general carrying of cargo capacity. Not towing.

For towing, I have to make sure that two things are not exceeded:

1. GCWR
2. Trailer + Cargo Max Weight

I also learned that the 2500 shares the same frame as the 3500, and the only differences in the 3500 were the Leaf Springs and the optional Aisin Transmission. These give the 3500 additional payload for hauling a bed full of dirt, etc. and the Transmission allows for an increase in HP by 30 or so.

The only difference in towing capability was that the 3500 can tow 110 more pounds, yes, 110!

Both versions have identical GCWR (25,000) and their base weights are within 40 pounds of each other. Unbelievable.

Once again, thank you all for your information, I appreciate it.

Happy Camping!


Paul

The same thing the Dodge dealer told me. That pin weight of the 5er does not count as payload so don't worry about what the payload of the truck or the much weight of the pin is just how much weight the truck can pull. Yea right - no clue what he was talking about.

Payload is the factor the one of the factors that determind the size 5er you can tow...

New Horizon has a 5er right at 25,000 lbs with pin weight of around 6250 lbs that will be sitting in the back of that 3/4 ton truck. Hmmmmm

[pprice01]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

The same thing the Dodge dealer told me. That pin weight of the 5er does not count as payload so don't worry about what the payload of the truck or the much weight of the pin is just how much weight the truck can pull. Yea right - no clue what he was talking about.

Payload is the factor the one of the factors that determind the size 5er you can tow...

New Horizon has a 5er right at 25,000 lbs with pin weight of around 6250 lbs that will be sitting in the back of that 3/4 ton truck. Hmmmmm

Well, to be fair, that would violate the 1st caveat I mentioned regarding GCVW.

[hbillsmith]

Originally Posted by pprice01

As I look around, it seems that most people say that 80% of your tow vehicle's max rating is safe.

Other people say to stay at/below 80% of max payload (making sure to include people, gear, and the hitch to the hitch weight of the 5er) - while using 20% of the 5er's GVWR as the guide for Hitch weight - not the Mfg listed hitch weight.

Lots of 5er options out there. Here's my weight table assuming my tow vehicle has a max towing of 16,500 and a max payload of 4,350 (reduced to 3,800 after including 450 for people + 100 for gear in the truck. Could always lower more for the actual hitch, but you get the idea.

Seems at 14,500 or below for the 5er GVWR I'm below 90% on max towing and well in the safe range for payload.

At 15,500 GVWR OF THE 5er I get a bit shaky for max weight (94%) but still under while only at 82% of payload.

Is this too risky for weight, or should I be OK given that the payload is what it is?

Am I calculating properly?

All mfg the UVW as published in their guides do not include weight of options. For instance, I had mine built with electric level system, bike rack, 3 slide out covers and upgraded refrigerator. To that were added propane and battery. This added a few hundred pounds to the UVW. You can still populate your spreadsheet but do web searches for the models you want and look for those that have your options. Many times the web dealers have pics of the yellow weight sticker which shows the real off the factory floor weight.

[pprice01]

Originally Posted by hbillsmith

All mfg the UVW as published in their guides do not include weight of options. For instance, I had mine built with electric level system, bike rack, 3 slide out covers and upgraded refrigerator. To that were added propane and battery. This added a few hundred pounds to the UVW. You can still populate your spreadsheet but do web searches for the models you want and look for those that have your options. Many times the web dealers have pics of the yellow weight sticker which shows the real off the factory floor weight.

I've been basing my calculations on the GVWR of the 5ers.