Battery life of original Group 27 and what to buy?

[Cabinfever97]

Originally Posted by RSLegacy

My experience over the years and talking with fellow RVer's seems to be, that the original manufacturer batteries appear to never last more than two-years. If you go beyond two-years consider yourself lucky. Battery maintenance is extremely important by keeping the terminals always clean, the cells topped off and when possible maintaining a trickle charge. It is also critical to never let a battery fully discharge and especially due to lack of distilled water. This can severely damage the plates and virtually ruin your batteries. Trojan Batteries I hear are great and extremely deep cycle. However, as you mentioned the price tag is outrageous. Some of my fellow RVer's go with relatively inexpensive batteries and run them until dead. Then buy another set of the same less expensive batteries. There are several options with this particular subject. I love this forum, as it give opinions, options, and some wonderful ideas, which normally would not be available for all of us. Safe travels !!!!!

Keep your camper plugged in or a battery maintainer on the battery and it will last at least 6 years. When we sold our old TT, it was 5 years old, the original battery was going strong. My neighbor is a Interstate dealer. He schooled me some on batteries. The constant trickle charge from your camper or maintainer will keep your batteries good a long time. He recommends twice a year to trickle charge, 1.5amp charge being the best, your auto batteries. He explained the alternator does more of a "top" charge. The battery in his truck is 8 years old and we live in Erie PA.

[Sagecoachdriver]

I did a test of my originals after doing the equalization and re-installing the batteries, they did good. Drained off 60 amps or 30% of the capacity which is what I am usually down every morning while dry camping. I was able to get back up to 90% within 90 minutes. Converter charger stayed at the 14.3 amps another 2 1/2 hours or 4 hours from the start. but with lower amps going in.Soalr was disconnected for the test. I'm going to have to be happy re-charging back up to 90% in the morning and maintaining that all day with the solar when I am in the shade and no direct sunlight on the solar.
But from my research, I'm going to go with Trojan SCS200 12v Deep cycle 115ah batteries when I do replace the originals. That will give me an extra 30 ah capacity or 15% increase over my existing originals.
My research on AGM showed less ah capacity like 92ah which is 8ah per battery over originals and 23ah each over the Trojans. Claims of faster charging only showed up after the bulk charging and during the absorption phase. And I believe my re-charging speed on AGM's would be limit by my Intelli-Power 60amp converter charger. Nothing much faster than what I am getting now from what I've read. Some have different claims and opinions on the AGM's.

[Sagecoachdriver]

Do the AGM's really charge 5 times faster than flooded> Anyone out there with AGM's? Does running your generator for and hour or two really charge it back up to almost full? The reason I am looking at Lithium and AGM is to cut generator use dry camping in Yosemite where generator hours are 7-9am 12-2pm and 5-7pm. I hate running the generator at 7 am and usually wait until after 8a so the charging is limited. Not around at noon to run the generator and have taken full advantage of the 5-7pm. Being down 70ah in the morning, I can't get caught up.

[Tombsy]

A pretty good article here
https://marinehowto.com/how-fast-can...ry-be-charged/
My take is doubling the charge current from .2c to .4c was only 12 minutes faster.

[Sagecoachdriver]

Originally Posted by Tombsy

A pretty good article here
https://marinehowto.com/how-fast-can...ry-be-charged/
My take is doubling the charge current from .2c to .4c was only 12 minutes faster.

My eyes are getting blurred reading all that. What's the bottom line comparing flooded vs AGM for 50% DOC to 90% and absorption? I need to see what I can expect when charging for an hour or maybe 90 minutes in the morning with the generator.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

My eyes are getting blurred reading all that. What's the bottom line comparing flooded vs AGM for 50% DOC to 90% and absorption? I need to see what I can expect when charging for an hour or maybe 90 minutes in the morning with the generator.

We have both kinds of batteries in different family RVs. Don't really notice any discernable differences in charging times.

When we boondock (which is most of the time), it takes about 4-5 hours of generator to fully recharge during the winter when battery usage is highest. We usually run a few hours in the morning during coffee and TV news, then again in the evening during dinner. Do this for up to three weeks with no problems making it through the night with the heater.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

My eyes are getting blurred reading all that. What's the bottom line comparing flooded vs AGM for 50% DOC to 90% and absorption? I need to see what I can expect when charging for an hour or maybe 90 minutes in the morning with the generator.

A lot of variables such as size of battery bank and battery temperature. A cold battery will accept less charge than one at or close to 80 degrees (battery electrolyte temp, not necessarily ambient temp).

Another factor is the size of wire between converter/charger and batteries. Unless your converter is mounted right next to the batteries there is a significant voltage drop which forces the charger from bulk rate into absorption rate.

Since my converter is mounted in the back 1/3 of my trailer and batteries are up front on the tongue I decided to eliminate as much voltage drop as possible by up-sizing the wire to #4 awg from the factory supplied #8 awg. For my batteries, 2) 12v Deep Cycle in parallel totalling 230-240 amp hour, I can get to 90% charge in less than 3 hours. This is from less than 50% DOD.

I doubt you'll get a full 90% SOC from just 90 minutes of generator time but chances are you will use less power between morning and early afternoon "generator time" so the second run of the generator will get you closer to 100%.

If faced with the same scenario of severely limited generator hours I'd strongly consider at least a portable solar "suitcase" (as I have). If batteries are severely depleted (50% DOD or perhaps more), run the generator until shut down time and deploy the solar charger. Won't put out as much power as the converter/generator but it will be somewhat continuous as long as you have sun.

I purchased a 160W suitcase solar unit from Amazon for a very reasonable price then modified it to use a more efficient MPPT controller. My last boondocking trip I did just as I suggested above. An hour or two in the AM on the generator, using the toaster and microwave for breakfast prep as well, then let the Solar take care of the batteries for the rest of the day. By mid afternoon the solar controller was showing the charge rate in absorption and Battery monitor was showing 100%. BTW, this was October in N. Cal, in the trees so solar was somewhat intermittent as one tree or another shaded the panels.

In closing I will say that my average daily "Amp Hour Usage" is around 30 ah so recharging my batteries is not a huge task if I do it every day. When I'm lazy, or weather is bad, I will run up to 3 days before charging.

[Sagecoachdriver]

TitanMike, my roof top 300w solar has been almost useless on the last few trips. We were in Morro Bay SP and had trees blocking the sun, same in Yosemite. Yes the solar was able to maintain the same SOC and DOD the entire day but not much added. We use about 60-70amps per day with the TV, Sat Receiver and furnace. So with my 200ah battery bank I'm down about 30% DOD and 70% SOC. So running the generator for 60-90 minutes should bring me up the 20-30ah need for 90% SOC and absorption. It's been starting to charging at 35-35amps at 13.9-14.0 volts. This is after I equalized the batteries last month. I have to stop and be content with just 90% SOC as the last 10% takes forever and the amps just aren't there from the converter charger. I've noticed that the rate of amp's charging is about half of the DOD. Example DOD of 70 amps will have about 35amps going into the batteries and maintains that ratio almost throughout the charging. So if I'm down (35%) 70ah DOD and need to get to (10%) 20ah is 50ah needed. It's been too long since high school algebra to figure the time it would take for the 50 amps at that decreasing rate of charge.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

TitanMike, my roof top 300w solar has been almost useless on the last few trips. We were in Morro Bay SP and had trees blocking the sun, same in Yosemite. Yes the solar was able to maintain the same SOC and DOD the entire day but not much added. We use about 60-70amps per day with the TV, Sat Receiver and furnace. So with my 200ah battery bank I'm down about 30% DOD and 70% SOC. So running the generator for 60-90 minutes should bring me up the 20-30ah need for 90% SOC and absorption. It's been starting to charging at 35-35amps at 13.9-14.0 volts. This is after I equalized the batteries last month. I have to stop and be content with just 90% SOC as the last 10% takes forever and the amps just aren't there from the converter charger. I've noticed that the rate of amp's charging is about half of the DOD. Example DOD of 70 amps will have about 35amps going into the batteries and maintains that ratio almost throughout the charging. So if I'm down (35%) 70ah DOD and need to get to (10%) 20ah is 50ah needed. It's been too long since high school algebra to figure the time it would take for the 50 amps at that decreasing rate of charge.

Get out your Multimeter and check voltage at batteries while charging at bulk rate. Then check voltage at the output terminals of your converter/charger. The difference between the two (converter end will be higher) is your voltage drop and this is keeping your batteries from receiving ALL the charge current your converter is capable of putting out. Only one solution if this voltage drop is more than 1-2% and that's BIGGER WIRE. Not just from converter to batteries but also ground side of system which is usually the vehicle chassis/frame.

When I upsized the wire on my TT, I have seen as much as 56 amp charging current (Coverter is rated for 60 amp) on my Victron monitor which then slowly tapers down to 20-30 amp after 10-15 minutes.

Think of it like having a pressure regulator on a hose and trying to fill a barrel. You may have the pressure at the start of the hose but if the hose is too small in diameter, the regulator will close off the flow as soon as the pressure at it's end reaches it's setting. Remove that back pressure and more water will flow.

If you have a converter that's mounted real close to the batteries you can still have too small a wire, especially on the "ground side". Oh yeah, make sure all terminals and connections are clean and tight. Not just clean but CLEAN to the point metal contact surfaces are shiny/bright. I also like to use a product called No-Ox-Id which is a terminal "grease" that enhances the conductivity and prevents future corrosion. You can buy a 100 year supply in tube form on Amazon for around $8.

BTW, you may need a larger converter. should be rated for AT LEAST 25% of the total battery bank capacity.

As for the permanent mounted solar, my choice was to go with a portable suitcase unit and "built" a 45' extension cord out of some #10-4 SO cord I had laying around. I connected the panels in series and mounted the MPPT controller near my batteries. This minimizes any voltage drop from panels to controller and I can move the panels to "chase the sun". I like to park among the trees but so far have been able to reach a nice patch of sun with the long cord. The fact that I am "tracking" the sun makes my meager 160 watts of "solar" more effective than larger flat panels on top of an RV. Just my choice.

[Sagecoachdriver]

TitanMike, my batteries are 2 100ah equalling 200ah and my converter charger is 60amp so I'm good there. I do have a Renogy 100w solar suitcase that I wired with Anderson connectors to the controller so I can have 400 watts and 21amps of charging in perfect conditions. Not that ambitious enough to start re-wiring from the converter to the batteries at this time.
thanks

[garbonz]

Originally Posted by FollowTheSun

Your topic often invites a diverse gamut of opinion to the subject regarding what you ought to use or replace your battery scheme with. But the truthful fact is that the simple 12-volt battery scheme, such as you have, is a very practical, good, and economical stored energy reserve for your Mobile Palace. As already noted by several folks – flooded wet-cell batteries are pretty tough, very economical, and if properly maintained – provide a good life. However flooded batteries like being used and recharged, and their cells need to be full of electrolyte. The symptom you describe suggest your batteries are becoming sulfated. A good source of information for taking care of your batteries might be found at https://batteryuniversity.com: specifically, the topic "BU-403: Charging Lead Acid." There are also a few unorthodox extend-end-of-life methods not covered by the University which might help recover or extend life of a dying battery: 1) Fully charge the battery. Then shake the battery in all directions, then drain all of the electrolyte into a plastic container. You may notice that it looks a little like your black-water. Let is settle. Decant to another container leaving the gunk & chucks behind. Refill battery with decanted electrolyte – add distilled water to top-off. Recharge fully with a dumb charger. This method helps clean the sediment that forms in the bottom of a battery and often removes obstruction that short cells. 2) Google: "Replace electrolyte with Epsom salts". This method changes the chemistry of a stone-dead battery reviving its life, sometimes for an additional two years. There are many opinions regarding this method so you need to search & decide for yourself. I've used it to restore life into an old battery ... it works, but after this, the battery is finished.

Great idea, make sure you do it in your living room with the kids around, in bare feet, and don't bother with gloves. That is just crazy. And then check into the emergency room with acid burns and a back injury from holding a 75 chunk of lead for 10 minutes. I really want to see a picture of this operation. Please post a video.

[nramem]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

These are the ones I buy. Not the best, but for the $$$ they work fine for our RV. https://www.interstatebatteries.com/...ies/deep-cycle

I traded in my 2 12 volt batteries for 2 interstate 6 volts, had them in 4 yrs now with no problems. Run heater at night when needed, and my c pap machine, in morning still have 45 to 65 percent charged batteries.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by nramem

I traded in my 2 12 volt batteries for 2 interstate 6 volts, had them in 4 yrs now with no problems. Run heater at night when needed, and my c pap machine, in morning still have 45 to 65 percent charged batteries.

Yep, same results as my two twelve volts. I tried six volts on my last RV. Really didn't see any measurable difference in performance.

So I think it's just a matter of personal preference and perception.

As long as they do what we need them to do, it's all good.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

Yep, same results as my two twelve volts. I tried six volts on my last RV. Really didn't see any measurable difference in performance.

So I think it's just a matter of personal preference and perception.

As long as they do what we need them to do, it's all good.

Same experience for me.

I don't parallel my two batteries anyway. I use a selector switch and select one at at a time. I could select both but never had a need/reason to do so. One group 27 12v easily gets me through a night.

No worries about having exact matched batteries and one never pulls the other down. I can also charge the single battery quicker than when paralleled and if one should go bad, I still have 12v. Heck, at the moment, one of my batteries is about six years old and one, two years old.

May not be for everyone but has worked well for me for many, many years.

[Sagecoachdriver]

I am going to replace my flooded 12v batteries with Lithium Battle Born 100 amp mainly because of wanting to cut down generator running time. Everyone has different factors influencing their decisions. The Lithium batteries are my solution. Yes pros and cons to this decision.

[TitanMike]

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

I am going to replace my flooded 12v batteries with Lithium Battle Born 100 amp mainly because of wanting to cut down generator running time. Everyone has different factors influencing their decisions. The Lithium batteries are my solution. Yes pros and cons to this decision.

Biggest "Con" is $$$$$ Hard to find fault with the rest of these batteries. Faster charging, more usable capacity, lighter weight, etc, etc. Just the fact that one battery can cost as much as a half dozen or more regular Lead-Acid batteries.

[Sagecoachdriver]

Originally Posted by TitanMike

Biggest "Con" is $$$$$ Hard to find fault with the rest of these batteries. Faster charging, more usable capacity, lighter weight, etc, etc. Just the fact that one battery can cost as much as a half dozen or more regular Lead-Acid batteries.

Yes, but it is the last battery I will have to buy. 3,000 to 5,000 charges compared to 500. Maintain 13.6 volts constantly and can have a DOD to 100% vs 50%. Many more pros than con of $. As much as we go to Yosemite, it will be worth it to us.

[babock]

Yep....I have 2 Battleborns I installed this year and they will be the last batteries I will have to buy. 60# under the bed vs 120# for batteries on the tongue plus the 50# box I was going to put them in. Accepts charge as fast as anything I can throw at them. Very little voltage drop. Can be stored at less than 100% charge without the worry of sulfation. Installed with a solar system and you can get a 30% tax credit so the actual net price is considerably less.

If you just compare by price, I agree, the lithiums may not be worth it in the short run. In the long run they are way more attractive. One Battleborn is the usable equivalent to 2 T105 Trojan batteries. So that's $260 for the Trojans vs $925 for the Battelborn or $650 for the Battelborn if you do it within a solar install after the tax credit. For me, it's all the other things that are so much better about them that made me pick them.

[Sagecoachdriver]

Babcock, if lithium batteries are 70 amps DOD would my PD4560 charge them at the full 60amps rate less what ever line loss there is. Reason I’m asking is currently they are charging at about 35amps with that converter charger with the flooded.

[Tombsy]

Originally Posted by Sagecoachdriver

Yes, but it is the last battery I will have to buy. 3,000 to 5,000 charges compared to 500. Maintain 13.6 volts constantly and can have a DOD to 100% vs 50%. Many more pros than con of $. As much as we go to Yosemite, it will be worth it to us.

When my AGM’s die I’ll be all over these too , I have LiFe’s in my kayak and use a lot of LiPo’s in my RC’s, so I’m pretty familiar with the tech but have been waiting hoping the price came down a bit. I’ll have to check if we have any kind of rebate program in Canada.
Thanks for doing the research, I’ll be following along.
A lot of my fishing is off grid for two weeks at a time during furnace season and I’d like to run the genny less if I could.