50 amp outlet for RV's

[TGR]

B and B has the answer to your problem and the link provided by wmtire provides the information.

The 240 VAC we receive in our homes comes in on two legs with a ground. Measuring across these two legs will show 240 VAC. Measuring between either of these two legs and ground shows 120 VAC. This is possible because these two incoming voltages are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Appliances that use 240 VAC get power from both input legs, i.e., two-phase power, and 120 VAC appliances get power from one leg and neutral/ground, i.e., single phase power.

In our home circuit breaker boxes, the breaker in the top slot connects to one leg of the input power and the slot below it connects to the other leg, back and forth, as you go down your panel. The breakers in each of these slots supplies 120 VAC to household circuits. However, if you put a double breaker in these same two slots, the two outputs measure 240 VAC between each other and power 240 VAC appliances like your stove, home air conditioner and 240 VAC car charger. If you measure between any two adjacent single breakers, you will read 240 VAC as well.

Your 240 VAC car battery charger uses the 2 phases of AC power and the safety ground. It doesn’t need the neutral circuit. However, your RV uses the input power as two separate 120 VAC circuits and that requires a neutral.

As Flybob and TURBS said, plugging into the outlet without the required neutral connection may have cause problems in your RV. Check out your RV and see if everything works.

I’d complain to the electrician for not wiring in the neutral if you have any problems in your RV. I’d also have him complete the wiring by installing the neutral wire so the RV will work properly when connected. As hammer55 indicated, it would be normal to use two phases of 120 VAC from a double 50A breaker to supply your 50 A plug but not without the required neutral.

[johntaylor]

There are no separate 110V and 220V circuits, and there's no configuring of electrical outlets other than the presence or absence of the neutral wire.

Draw 3 points in a line, 1" apart. It's 1" from the middle point to either of the outer ones, and it's 2" between the outer ones. That's how a 220V 2-phase circuit works. Think of the neutral wire in the middle, with a hot wire on each side of it:

It's 110V between either of the hot wires and neutral.
It's 220V between the two hot wires.

The power delivered to your house is 220V 2-phase, with 2 hot wires, a neutral and a ground. For your 110V circuits, your breaker box connects between one of the hot wires and neutral (half your circuits use one hot wire and half use the other), and for your 220V circuits (stove, clothes dryer, etc.) it connects between the 2 hot wires.

The RV and the car can use the same outlet, providing it has all 4 wires. The RV gets its 110V between a hot wire and neutral (one AC unit and some circuits will be on one hot wire, the other AC unit and some circuits will be on the other hot wire). The car charger gets its 220V between the two hot wires.

If your outlet has no neutral wire, it provides 220V just fine for the car charger, but if you plug the RV into it, you will be running the RV on 220V with the circuits on one leg in series with the circuits on the other leg, because you have no neutral between them.

Edit: TGR posted the info as I did, but he just beat me to it!

[BillMFl]

Yup any MH I owned had two separate 120vac legs. None of the appliances in my MHs run on 220vac. With my Montana 5th wheel, the two legs were split so that one roof air was on a separate leg from the other. When I used a 30amp adapter plug on a 50 amp outlet only one ac unit would operate. I don't see this as a do it yourself project unless you were highly experienced. Putting 220v thru your coach could be very expensive.

[Livin the Life]

WOW.........There are many, many things one can do for oneself to save $$$$ when maintaining, modifying and or repairing your RV/TT/MH. BUT........if you do not get, (understand), electricity, leave it to the pros. Pay the money for their expertise, of course do your due diligence so you don't get ripped off. But, reading a blog about using the same outlet for your electric car, (expensive) and your RV/TT/MH, (again expensive purchase), with very little or no knowledge about electricity is just asking for trouble and very expensive electrical repairs. Pay the pro and learn from them so the next time you can be a do it yourself-er. Electricity is nothing to play around with and can be deadly if even a small mistake is made. Nobody like spending money needlessly but......WOW!

[RJHuser]

The thing that gets me is that the receptical used is a standard four wire/four blade one, as would and should be used in any modern 240 VAC system, but the electrician only ran two hots and a ground. The correct receptical for that configuration would be a three blade receptical as used for a welder.

He didn't know what he was doing!. If the car charger came with a four blade plug, the charger needs and should have had a neutral run. Many 240 VAC devices use 120 VAC (one hot and the neutral) for controls.

Unless, the electrician used the ground as a ground and neutral which is definitely against code, and for which he should lose his license!

Also, was it inspected? Any work like this should and is usually is required to be inspected by the county inspector and approved before being made hot. Unless the inspector is incompatent also!

Rick

[JoeNanMinn]

your electric car cord/plug is 220. you cannot use that receptacle for your RV.

[B and B]

Just for the record. The picture of the OP panel shows a dual breaker feeding the outlet. With out a neutral it is possible turning on certain loads in the RV to generate a artificial neutral with not 120 on each leg but higher or lower damaging voltage. This is based upon current draw of all devices turned or running. As Turns and I believe Glenn did suggest you need to check any items in the RV for proper operation. If not plugged in do not worry about it. As always consult a licensed electrician and make sure there are no hidden junction boxes like Mike Holmes says.!!

[67cudafb]

Originally Posted by JoeNanMinn

your electric car cord/plug is 220. you cannot use that receptacle for your RV.

You are incorrect sir. If a neutral is added it will work fine for an RV with a 50 amp plug. As it was stated a welder only use 3 wires 2 hots and ground. RV needs 2 hots a ground and a neutral.

[jk510]

This is all rehashing what I said back in post 15. If you add a neutral line to the outlet you can use it for your MH. If the car charger uses the same plug it probably doesn't have the neutral wire in the cord so it doesn't matter if the outlet has it or not. If it does have the neutral wire then it probably handles it on it's own.

One other thing, is that the original, factory, plug on the car? If it's supposed to be 220v without a neutral then maybe it should be 3 prong.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by jk510

This is all rehashing what I said back in post 15. If you add a neutral line to the outlet you can use it for your MH. If the car charger uses the same plug it probably doesn't have the neutral wire in the cord so it doesn't matter if the outlet has it or not. If it does have the neutral wire then it probably handles it on it's own.

One other thing, is that the original, factory, plug on the car? If it's supposed to be 220v without a neutral then maybe it should be 3 prong.

I myself truly think the OP has enough information to. It would be nice to here from him.Also what car and charger he has EVO 1 or 2 just found this on the internet. Not saying it's right but the Onstallation
Buying the charging station is only part of the cost, however. You'll need a qualified electrician to wire things up, too. Some locales require permits and inspections.

An exception is if your garage already has a dedicated 240-volt plug receptacle of the proper type installed. That would let you buy a portable EVSE, hang it on the wall and plug it in yourself.

For both hard-wired and plug-in Level 2 EVSEs, you'll need to install the properly sized circuit breaker in the fuse box and run wiring inside conduit from the box to the EVSE's location.

Then you either connect the EVSE directly or, for plug-in models, install the proper receptacle so the EVSE can be plugged in. The EVSE's specifications sheet will tell you which type of plug it has. Most are either NEMA 6-50, the type used for welding equipment and for most 240-volt garage outlets, or a NEMA 10-30 or NEMA 14-30, both used for residential clothes dryers. All are pictured in this online NEMA reference chart. NEMA is the acronym for National Electrical Manufacturers Association, which sets standards for all sorts of electrical equipment.

Costs will vary by prevailing fees for electrical work, by the amount of work that needs to be done and the cost of any necessary permits.

If the best place for your EVSE is on the interior garage wall directly behind the exterior-mounted fuse panel, there will be very little wire to run and the cost could be just a few hundred dollars.

If the electrician has to run wire through the wall and then 20 feet away to the EVSE location, wrapping the conduit around a corner or two along the way, the cost could be hundreds more.

And if your house is an older one and simply doesn't have a big enough fuse box and you have to upgrade your electrical service, you're typically talking well in excess of $2,000.

Who Makes Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment?
At present, there are a number of major manufacturers of home and portable EVSEs.

Aerovironment, one of the early suppliers, makes both wall-mounted EVSEs and cord sets and is the preferred supplier of several major plug-in vehicle manufacturers.

Blink, which had problems early on and is now owned by The Car Charging Group, has a new wall-mount home station. Bosch is a favorite of German carmakers.

Clipper Creek makes EVSEs with J1772 connectors but also is the preferred supplier for Tesla. Delta, a maker of wall-mounted units, has products available online. Eaton is a major electrical equipment supplier.

Electric Vehicle Institute is an online supplier. EVoCharge makes an outdoor-rated home EVSE with a retractable cord and a reel that can be mounted separately. in locations such as an overhead joist in a garage. EVSE Upgrade converts carmaker-supplied Level 1 cord sets to operate as Level 2 charging cords as well.

General Electric makes wall-mounted stations for home use. Leviton, Schneider Electric and Siemens are major electrical equipment suppliers now in the home charging station market.

[OldCoot]

Is it not true that the neutral and ground are tied to the same terminal back at the main breaker box?

[Witch Doctor]

You are kinda right they are both tied to the box, and you could use a ground for a neutral from a 50 amp breaker and get 110v I wouldn't recommend it. When I did A/C repair and needed 110 V . I had a 110v receptacle with 2 wires and alligator clamps on them I would hook 1 clamp to 1 lug in the disconnect and the other alligator to the box itself that gave me 110 V to use on roof tops for my equipment that I needed that was 110v. Now a day's the code requires a 110 box at the unit also. But yes it would give you 110v. 1 hot leg and a ground. But as the article says the car plug is most likely a welders config. 3 prong and not a 4 prong RV plug. So really I do not know what he's trying to do?

[chrisbailey13]

My RV breaker looks similar to the one the OP posted in #6, one thing that is missing from his picture is if there is a Neutral Bar in the breaker box that may not be shown in the picture.


if there is it would alleviate a lot of the speculation that the electrician wired the outlet wrong.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by gljurczyk

You are kinda right they are both tied to the box, and you could use a ground for a neutral from a 50 amp breaker and get 110v I wouldn't recommend it. When I did A/C repair and needed 110 V . I had a 110v receptacle with 2 wires and alligator clamps on them I would hook 1 clamp to 1 lug in the disconnect and the other alligator to the box itself that gave me 110 V to use on roof tops for my equipment that I needed that was 110v. Now a day's the code requires a 110 box at the unit also. But yes it would give you 110v. 1 hot leg and a ground. But as the article says the car plug is most likely a welders config. 3 prong and not a 4 prong RV plug. So really I do not know what he's trying to do?

I've always had welder's and they have all been wired with 2 hot, a neutral and a ground wire on the receptacle itself even tho the plugs only have 3 lugs. Have always used 8-3 with ground.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by chrisbailey13

My RV breaker looks similar to the one the OP posted in #6, one thing that is missing from his picture is if there is a Neutral Bar in the breaker box that may not be shown in the picture.


if there is it would alleviate a lot of the speculation that the electrician wired the outlet wrong.

Have seen a lot of home 100A & 200A boxes where certified electricians have connected the neutral and ground to the same lug/terminal in the main box. The electrician could have if there were a ground wire, done the same in this incident, but evidently did not run a ground wire.

[fast murray]

What size is the wire going to that 50 amp breaker. It should be #8 but its tough to tell in the picture.

[fast murray]

Originally Posted by johntaylor

The power delivered to your house is 220V 2-phase

Just for fun, residential power is typically 240 volt 1 phase. There is no 2 phase power, only single phase and three phase.

[johntaylor]

Originally Posted by fast murray

Just for fun, residential power is typically 240 volt 1 phase. There is no 2 phase power, only single phase and three phase.

Not so. The voltages in the 2 hot wires are 180 degrees out of phase. That makes it a 2-phase supply, and that's how you get 240V between the 2 hot wires. If the 2 hot wires were in phase, making it a 1-phase supply, you would have 0V between the hot wires. As you say, there is also 3-phase power; the 3 hot wires there are 120 degrees out of phase.

[B and B]

Two Phase power does not exist. Either single phase like most homes or a 50 amp RV or 3 phase not found in RV

From Wilipedia..

Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century polyphase alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°. Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently, three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the largest generators in the world at that time and were two-phase electric machines. As of 21st century, two-phase power was superseded with three phases and is not used in the industry. There remains, however, a two-phase commercial distribution system in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; many buildings in city center are permanently wired for two-phase[citation needed] and PECO (the local electric utility company) has continued the service.

[TGR]

Originally Posted by chrisbailey13

My RV breaker looks similar to the one the OP posted in #6, one thing that is missing from his picture is if there is a Neutral Bar in the breaker box that may not be shown in the picture.


if there is it would alleviate a lot of the speculation that the electrician wired the outlet wrong.

It looks like the view of the neutral/ground busbar in post #6 is partially obscured by the circuit breakers. However the busbar is visible in the slots without circuit breakers. The two white neutral wires are wired to the neutral/ground busbar and so are the two green wires.

Fast murrray is correct, residential homes are supplied by split-phase power, not 2-phase power.