Battery short help needed

[Modmike]

Originally Posted by johnbryanpeters

Are you running the refrigerator on propane or on 12 VDC? The former doesn't use much power, the latter uses a lot of power.

Fridge is domestic and runs off of inverter.

[Modmike]

Originally Posted by veepapa

...

And then I added a Bogart battery monitor system to keep a check on them.

Attachment 153553

I don't have as nice a battery voltage monitor but there is a basic one built into my Xantrex Freedom Xi. It also has the ability to shut down the inverter if the batteries are low.





The cool thing is the panel can be removed and mounted remotely. Xantrex supplies the blank replacement plate and remote mounting kit in the box.

[veepapa]

My fridge is a residential with ice and water in the door and uses the 2000 watt inverter which runs off for coach batteries. But when I installed the Bogart system I also installed the Solar panel controller.
Hopefully some day to venture out into the bad lands of the BLM lands lol. I will be doing a YouTube video on how I installed my Bogart unit it was quite a challenge to bring it up into the coach the wires that is.
At A Canadian RVer A.

[johnbryanpeters]

Originally Posted by Modmike

Fridge is domestic and runs off of inverter.

So that's a power hog right there.

[Modmike]

Agreed, but at least it won’t catch fire and it keeps food cool even when it’s hot outside, which seems more and more these days.

All ribbing aside, I consider the cavernous fridge and its 2 ice makers the jewel of my RV. Wouldn’t give it up for anything.

[Modmike]

In a fit of pique I went out and purchased a Schumacher-BT 250 battery tester ($50.00), something I should have done long ago.

I tested my batteries and although the resting voltage was good, every single one of them had a bad cell!!!!! Even my car battery, but I already suspected that one was toast.

After aresearching desulfating chargers for 3 days, I purchased a PulseTech XC100-P Xtreme Charge 12V Battery Maintenance Charger Desulfator. At only $100 it’s a steal, especially when you compare to what the so called “Genius” sells for.

I hooked it up to my car battery as a test and 3 hours later the bad cell was repaired!!!!! I will test it on my RV batteries and if it works I am going to get their PowerPulse PP-12-L

This PowerPulse generates the desulfating pulse continually. At $45 it’s cheap insurance to keep your batteries in tip top shape. Keep in mind it’ does consume power to do its thing so you might want to put a switch on it to disconnect it when you are not plugged in, unlesss you have solar of course.

PulseTech is used by the army in nearly every piece of heavy equipment, including the M1 Abraham’s tank, so I think I made the right choice. I’ll keep you posted on the progress with the RV batteries.

[babock]

Originally Posted by Modmike

After aresearching desulfating chargers for 3 days, I purchased a PulseTech XC100-P Xtreme Charge 12V Battery Maintenance Charger Desulfator. At only $100 it’s a steal, especially when you compare to what the so called “Genius” sells for.

Don't you have a convertor in your RV? A Power Dynamics convertor would do everything that this battery charger does plus it's your converter.

[Modmike]

Of course I have one, it even says “genius” on it!

The short answer to your question is, not even close. Other than maybe a high voltage pulse to boil off the sulphate, which is what Genius chargers use. That being said, I am not aware of any converter with desulphating capabilities of any kind.

It is not the charger that counts in this equation, even though the PulseTech has one of the best charge profiles out there.

What is important is the low voltage high frequency pulse that breaks down sulphates and returns them to solution. That’s what repairs bad cells, doubles battery life, but more importantly, restores capacity.

That’s why I intend to install a PowerPulse permanently. It doesn’t charge, just desulfates. I plan to put in a relay so it is active whenever I am plugged in to shore power, or the engine is running. At least until I get solar installed. Then it can run full time.

[babock]

The best thing to do is to prevent sulfation in the first place. Never let your battery get below 50% charge and make sure it's 100% charged while in storage and get it back to 100% as soon as possible when you are using it and it gets discharged.

One of the reasons I am ditching the WFCO converter and buying the Progressive dynamics and mounting it within a couple feet of my battery.

[Modmike]

That's a common mis-conception, although good general advice. By the way, I already have a Progressive Dynamics PD9200 series converter. I also ugraded to their surge protected auto-transfer switch. Nice product.

Sulphation is the product of normal charging, you simply can't avoid it. Check out this study:



Read the full article here:

Answer To The Question: Battery Desulfators - Do They Work? - Blog -

This is only one of a few good articles. Do a Google search on Battery Desulfators.

Cheers!

[babock]

I know quite a bit about battery sulfation since I worked on the GM EV1 back when it used lead acid batteries.

Keep the batteries fully charged and your batteries will last over 5 years easily.

Yes you will get sulfation everytime your battery gets discharged and the battery is below 100%. It just naturally occurs.

[babock]

Sulfation and How to Prevent it - Battery University

Applying random pulses or blindly inducing an overcharge can harm the battery by promoting grid corrosion. There are no simple methods to measure sulfation, nor are commercial chargers available that apply a calculated overcharge to dissolve the crystals. As with medicine, the most effective remedy is to apply a corrective service for the time needed and not longer.

While anti-sulfation devices can reverse the condition, some battery manufacturers do not recommend the treatment as it tends to create soft shorts that may increase self-discharge. Furthermore, the pulses contain ripple voltage that causes some heating of the battery. Battery manufacturers specify the allowable ripple when charging lead acid batteries.

[babock]

From the Trojan Battery Website:
Frequently Asked Questions | Trojan Battery Company

2. Do you recommend the use of desulfators?
We don’t recommend the use of desulfators or any other external device, as they tend to do more harm than good.

[Modmike]

There is some truth to what Trojan says if you are using high voltage pulsing to desulphate, which is what the Noco Genius charger, and many similar chargers that claim repair capabilities do. High voltage pulsing tries to 'boil' the sulphate off the plates and the voltages used can eventually shorten battery life.

Trojan is being disingenuous by lumping all desulfator technology together into the high voltage camp. Let's not forget that Trojan is in the business of selling batteries after all!

PulseTech uses a 22-28 KHz pulse frequency at a rate of about 22K to 28K per second which works in a similar manner as an ultrasonic cleaner. Which has been empirically proven to work.

Copy pasting claims from web sites is proof of nothing. I guess you could say the same of what I am writing except for the fact the the US Army has tested and evaluated PulseTech's chargers and has one installed on every tank they own. It does not get more validated than that.

[johnbryanpeters]

One of the problems with trying to stay on top of battery health is that much of the "information" available is marketing-based. It's hard to winnow out the actual useful information.

It would also seem that battery design and manufacture has developed more on the basis of empiricism than on a science-based approach. Both approaches work, but the former's hard to discuss and is often proprietary.

[Modmike]

I don't agree and lets not confuse empiricism with empirical evidence. Look at the plate pictures I posted and you will see the difference. Or disregard that and take the US Army's word for it.

As I mentioned before, my car battery had a bad cell, as diagnosed by my Schumacher BT-250 tester. I also only had 770 CA amps when the battery was rated for 1035. After the overnight charge, I re-tested the battery, the bad cell was repaired, and I had 900 CA. I need to leave it on for a longer period of time to continue the desulfating process but it is my daily driver so I can only get 1 night at a a time.

The best proof will be my RV batteries, each one of which has a bad cell. Unfortunately there is no identifying stickers so I can't get the original specs of the batteries to compare CCA. I know CCA is totally unnecessary in a deep cycle but it's what the Schumacher uses and is all I have to compare.

Any chance you know who OEM's the D27DC-160 batteries in my coach?

[Modmike]

Originally Posted by babock

Sulfation and How to Prevent it - Battery University

I am very happy to see that Battery University supports what I am saying. Battery desulfation can help but voltage pulsing causes damage which is why I am against NOCO Genius and similar chargers for desulfation.

What you need to understand is that there is not a single approach to desulfation, there are 4, one of which is high voltage pulsing. Because it is not a proprietary technology, it is the go to "battery repair" function included in those type of chargers.

As I stated many times, PulseTech uses frequency pulsing that acts like an ultrasonic cleaner without the adverse effects of high voltage pulsing.

Again, Battery University is entirely correct when talking about voltage pulsing. They also are correct when they say desulfation has benefits.

I also agree that the best practices is to keep charged at 100% and do not discharge past 50%. Unfortunately that is impossible for many of us, especially me. Moreover, sulfation will still occur, maybe not as fast, but it will. You can bet your battery on that!

[babock]

Originally Posted by Modmike

US Army has tested and evaluated PulseTech's chargers and has one installed on every tank they own. It does not get more validated than that.

You heard this where?

I certainly wouldn't be leaving this connected to your battery 100% of the time. And guess what...the desulfication device you are using does put pulses of voltage out. It may be a pulse that has an AC component but it is still a voltage pulse. It also has a TON of ripple in it which is damaging to batteries.

Please let us know if your batteries self discharge more.

[Modmike]

Originally Posted by babock

You heard this where?

I certainly wouldn't be leaving this connected to your battery 100% of the time. And guess what...the desulfication device you are using does put pulses of voltage out. It may be a pulse that has an AC component but it is still a voltage pulse. It also has a TON of ripple in it which is damaging to batteries.

Please let us know if your batteries self discharge more.

This statement is completely false and uniformed as it applies to PulseTEch desulfators.

BUT

The statement is absolutely correct as it applies to voltage pulse desulfation.

I agreed to everything you said when we are discussing voltage pulse based desulfators several times. On the current drain you are absolutely correct, a PowerPulse will use power to do what it does. Thats why I said I would attach it via a relay so it only works when there is 110 or the ignition is on.

I even have the same converter you want to purchase and it doesn't do what you hope it does.

You are taking the same tact as Trojan and Battery University in refusing to evaluate PulseTechs technology by ignoring it's existence to prove your point..

Start at the beginning with an open mind. Understand how the tech is DIFFERENT. Go to PulseTechs site and see why the military uses their tech. It's plastered everywhere.

Also read this article thoroughly. There is no way you can effectively debate without knowing every side of the debate. Here is a highlight:

"The US Air Force Management Equipment and Evaluation Program also conducted studies of Pulse Technology and shared their findings:

"This evaluation indicates that many batteries previously condemned could be reclaimed if Pulse Technology were used extensively; assuming there is no internal damage to battery, i.e.: plates, etc." The report goes on to state: "In conclusion, Pulse Technology worked by removing sulfation from the battery plates as the manufacturer claimed. It is unknown exactly how long a battery will last with Pulse Technology connected, but it is estimated at least eight to ten years of life can be added."

At this point I think the forum has enough information to research and I don't want to get in to a flame war so I am calling it quits. I hope I am not being rude, I simply think all the facts in this debate have been presented.

[Modmike]

Originally Posted by babock

I know quite a bit about battery sulfation since I worked on the GM EV1 ...

By the way, this is fascinating, there was so much controversy about GM killing it and destroying the cars. Did you work at GM or did you won an EV-1? What did you think of GM's decision to scrap the product and destroy the cars?