Solved- GT Electrical Nightmares

[jojo bamboo]

....and to think, all of our motorhomes are put together like this.

[Iggy]

The NEC does not cover electrical in a motorhome or trailers.
What I see in the pictures looks correct and reasonable code for wiring, grounding and box/connections.

All I see is that some connection got loose or was not twisted in the wire nut tight enough and started to arch when the device was on. Over a period of time the heat/arching just kep destroying things until it totally failed and grounded. At that point a Circuit breaker may or may not have tripped.

All our rigs shake and things get loose. If this scares you yes you should havea quailified person to check all connections. This is one of the first I've seen and heard of this happening.

The problem continued to get worse because the user didn't stop and shut off the breakers soon enough when things started to get weird.

I'm sure will catch hell for my statements...

Originally Posted by VinceU

I see a few possible NEC code violations, maybe why they arent answering. Wrong size box, too many cables for box used and most importantly rule calls for accessibility. This is pretty serious stuff. E-How quote below.....
I assume Indiana follows the Nat. Code?
Code Specifications

• The National Electrical Code requires that junction boxes must remain accessible, which means they cannot be covered with drywall or other wall covering material. The box opening must be covered with a coverplate that is screwed shut to protect the connection. The box must be deep enough to house the number of cables entering it. For example, a 4-inch by 4-inch square box that is 1-and-1/2-inches deep can accommodate the connections for up to 6 14-gauge NM cables or 5 12-gauge cables. If more cables must be connected in the box, use a box with a 2-and-1/8-inches depth.
  
  

Read more: Typical Electric Junction Box Wiring | eHow.com Typical Electric Junction Box Wiring | eHow.com

[VinceU]

[QUOTE=Iggy;195324]The NEC does not cover electrical in a motorhome or trailers.
What I see in the pictures looks correct and reasonable code for wiring, grounding and box/connections.

All I see is that some connection got loose or was not twisted in the wire nut tight enough and started to arch when the device was on. Over a period of time the heat/arching just kep destroying things until it totally failed and grounded. At that point a Circuit breaker may or may not have tripped.

All our rigs shake and things get loose. If this scares you yes you should havea quailified person to check all connections. This is one of the first I've seen and heard of this happening.

"You are apparently not an licensed electrician and this ain't no laughing matter. It took four seconds to find this quote, it takes 4 minutes for a rig to burn to the ground because of connections like this. These faults are like cancer, they sneak up ant get you!"

RVIA/NEC CODES.
Home » Standards and Education » Standards


RVIA organizes standards in the following way:

1. 12-Volt Electrical Requirements as specified by ANSI/RVIA 12V Low Voltage System Standard.
   • Addresses the interfacing of the original chassis manufacturer and the RV manufacturer designs so as to be compatible.
   • Overcurrent protection tables and conductor (wire) sizing and protection criteria.
   • Requires listed lighting fixtures and other devices and appliances to be installed in accordance with manufacturer’s written instructions.
2. 120-Volt Electrical Requirements as specified in Article 551 and other applicable sections of NFPA 70, of the National Electrical Code.
   • Ground fault protected receptacles are specified where they are appropriate.
   • Only listed electrical fixtures, appliances, equipment and materials that have been labeled by nationally recognized testing agencies are allowed.
   • Dielectric tests are performed on the completed Recreation Vehicle to determine that the electrical system is installed correctl

[Iggy]

RVIA is the standard for certified RV's
Like I said earlier the NEC is not for RV's but RVIA uses standard that meet their minimum standards.
Like I said earlier the the NEC will never talk about trucks, buses, trailers at all in any of thier standards.
I'm sure you may not agree with my statement but that's ok.


[QUOTE=VinceU;195542]

Originally Posted by Iggy

The NEC does not cover electrical in a motorhome or trailers.
What I see in the pictures looks correct and reasonable code for wiring, grounding and box/connections.

All I see is that some connection got loose or was not twisted in the wire nut tight enough and started to arch when the device was on. Over a period of time the heat/arching just kep destroying things until it totally failed and grounded. At that point a Circuit breaker may or may not have tripped.

All our rigs shake and things get loose. If this scares you yes you should havea quailified person to check all connections. This is one of the first I've seen and heard of this happening.

"You are apparently not an licensed electrician and this ain't no laughing matter. It took four seconds to find this quote, it takes 4 minutes for a rig to burn to the ground because of connections like this. These faults are like cancer, they sneak up ant get you!"

RVIA/NEC CODES.
Home » Standards and Education » Standards



RVIA organizes standards in the following way:

1. 12-Volt Electrical Requirements as specified by ANSI/RVIA 12V Low Voltage System Standard.
   • Addresses the interfacing of the original chassis manufacturer and the RV manufacturer designs so as to be compatible.
   • Overcurrent protection tables and conductor (wire) sizing and protection criteria.
   • Requires listed lighting fixtures and other devices and appliances to be installed in accordance with manufacturer’s written instructions.
2. 120-Volt Electrical Requirements as specified in Article 551 and other applicable sections of NFPA 70, of the National Electrical Code.
   • Ground fault protected receptacles are specified where they are appropriate.
   • Only listed electrical fixtures, appliances, equipment and materials that have been labeled by nationally recognized testing agencies are allowed.
   • Dielectric tests are performed on the completed Recreation Vehicle to determine that the electrical system is installed correctl

[KyDan]

Looking at the photos is scary but here's my thoughts--

At least the junction box was metal. This probably stopped a real fire.

The box does not appear to be overly crowded.
Apparently a wire nut was loose and the weak connection over heated
and melted the nut and nearby wire insulation.
This is not all that uncommon in homes or anyplace else.

The wire nuts need to be tight and all conductors need to be fully
inserted in the wire nut.
I have put on hundreds, maybe thousands of wire nuts in my 37 year
industrial maintenance career. I can tell you when you're holding 3 or 4
conductors with one hand and screwing on a wire nut with the other hand
it's easy to let one or more conductors slip back slightly and that's a problem.
You ( the installer) have to be SURE they all stay even on the ends when
the nut is applied.
AND it must be TIGHT. I often use linemans pliers to give the nut an
extra turn.

Now days some wire nuts- called "wing nuts" have a shape that's easier
to get a good grip on and securely tighten. I always use this kind at
home but had to use what ever they gave me at work.

Copper wire in a reasonably dry environment is not prone to corrosion.
If it is securely fastened with the proper size wire nut it is safe and
I would not expect bouncing down the highway to change that.
Note that all wires pass thru "romex box connectors". These hold the
wires securely in the box and I would not expect any movement of
the individual wires inside the box no matter how bumpy the road.

I feel sure the burned wires in the photos were either not all the way into
the wire nuts and/or the wire nut was not securely tightened.
It's most likely installer error but not an over crowded box or bad design.

The fact the junction box was so hard to locate is troubling to me as much
as anything else.

[cfsoistman]

Originally Posted by KyDan

Looking at the photos is scary but here's my thoughts--

At least the junction box was metal. This probably stopped a real fire.

The box does not appear to be overly crowded.
Apparently a wire nut was loose and the weak connection over heated
and melted the nut and nearby wire insulation.
This is not all that uncommon in homes or anyplace else.

The wire nuts need to be tight and all conductors need to be fully
inserted in the wire nut.
I have put on hundreds, maybe thousands of wire nuts in my 37 year
industrial maintenance career. I can tell you when you're holding 3 or 4
conductors with one hand and screwing on a wire nut with the other hand
it's easy to let one or more conductors slip back slightly and that's a problem.
You ( the installer) have to be SURE they all stay even on the ends when
the nut is applied.
AND it must be TIGHT. I often use linemans pliers to give the nut an
extra turn.

Now days some wire nuts- called "wing nuts" have a shape that's easier
to get a good grip on and securely tighten. I always use this kind at
home but had to use what ever they gave me at work.

Copper wire in a reasonably dry environment is not prone to corrosion.
If it is securely fastened with the proper size wire nut it is safe and
I would not expect bouncing down the highway to change that.
Note that all wires pass thru "romex box connectors". These hold the
wires securely in the box and I would not expect any movement of
the individual wires inside the box no matter how bumpy the road.

I feel sure the burned wires in the photos were either not all the way into
the wire nuts and/or the wire nut was not securely tightened.
It's most likely installer error but not an over crowded box or bad design.

The fact the junction box was so hard to locate is troubling to me as much
as anything else.

The problem with the wiring is the wires were never twisted together prior to the wire nut being placed on the end. The wire nut is an insulator for anything it covers. It is not meant to be the connector between the iwres. the wires should have been twisted together so the connection is tight. The way they placed the wires side by side as you said one wire wasn't completely in the nut as the other, so the metal spring inside the wirenut became the connection and turned that little spring wire into a hot coil like a toaster. The wire is sized to handle that load but that spring inside the wirenut is not. That's why it's important to twist together the wires that are rated for the load and use the wire nut to insulate them from contacting any other metal objects or ground wires.The one wire that burned the entire wire nut away and left the spring behind is to the front AC Unit which has an electric element in it. That load fried the wire nut which was making the contact between the two wires.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32z6Q8--fEM

Straight from the manufacturer of wire nuts.

[cfsoistman]

Well I rewired all of the fried connections and got everything back in place last evening. Everything works, surprisingly on the first try. I'm back to being a happy camper. I can now watch the All-Star Race this weekend or at least fall asleep while watching it in the motorhome.

[VinceU]

Originally Posted by cfsoistman

Well I rewired all of the fried connections and got everything back in place last evening. Everything works, surprisingly on the first try. I'm back to being a happy camper. I can now watch the All-Star Race this weekend or at least fall asleep while watching it in the motorhome.

Here's my final say on this matter. Just today I opened a 7 cable JB in my 2012 GT 378. Note the photos are unretouched. Wires in nuts are tightly twisted, only 2 cables per stuffiing tube neatly stowed, nuts well taped and cables routing to and from the box are "organized". Maybe this dude went from beginner to master electrician in 1 year?

[cfsoistman]

Originally Posted by VinceU

Here's my final say on this matter. Just today I opened a 7 cable JB in my 2012 GT 378. Note the photos are unretouched. Wires in nuts are tightly twisted, only 2 cables per stuffiing tube neatly stowed, nuts well taped and cables routing to and from the box are "organized". Maybe this dude went from beginner to master electrician in 1 year?

It's nice to see that someone there does know how to do the work properly. I hope my unit was the only one that ended up being done wrong. Thankfully nothing too serious happened. Had the access panel been cut in and marked, my problem would have been easier to locate and would have saved me numerous hours trying to find that junction box. I contacted FR about my coach and asked what their intentions would be for all the work I had to do to fix their mistake. They don't reimburse customers for any work done or materials used to correct their mistakes but John Armstrong is sending me 2 Water Filter Cartridges as a customer concession. I guess it's better than nothing.

[Iggy]

John Artmstrong is a good man at Forest River and is in a very difficult position.
At least he shows some compassion with your older MH problem which I feel is admirable.

If only all readers here that have motohomes go away and check out their rigs will be good. Any time you have a moving trailer or motorhome things will get loose. This is not a unmovable house but a box that expands and contracts, shakes and flexes many times while driving. Over the period of the life of any of these RV things can and will get loose.
It is our responsibility to maintain our rigs safely.
Your message will maybe be a wakeup call for all who own RV especially if you buy a used on and know nothing about its condition.

Thank you for your message.
Iggy

[myredracer]

Yes, darn lucky you didn't have a fire. Great job in how you were able to fix it!

In cases like this where you have a bunch of receptacles out and it's not a tripped GFCI or breaker, it is almost always a bad connection somewhere - either in a wiring device or a junction box. You have to be persistent and methodical in pinpointing the problem.

You had an arcing fault as opposed to a fault to ground. Nowadays in houses, Code requires an arc fault breaker for bedroom receptacles. I wonder if they should be using them in RVs?

Wire connectors (aka "nuts") do not have to have the wires pretwisted, but this is the normal practice in the commercial/industrial sector. Otherwise, there is a bit of a knack to holding the wires together and twisting the connector on to get the wires to twist properly. Once the nut is twisted on properly, there ain't no way the wires will come apart. You can remove one to test if you have it right. Gets much more difficult when you have 4 or more wires, in which case, it is just better to pre-twist them anyway and trim them. The yellow connectors in your coach have wings on them to make the twisting process easier. I like these better but they do take up more room in a box. There is a little plastic tool that you can use for the wingless ones.

In all my decades of being in the electrical business, I have to say that I have never, ever heard of taping wire connectors. It's overkill but perhaps an extra good measure in an RV that shakes, and moves - unlike a building. Good idea to install the plastic connectors on the box with 2 cables each. I'm not so sure that 4 cables in the original metal connector was okay by NEC?

FWIW, I thought I would just say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the design of 120V receptacles in RVs. They are what is used in manufactured homes also. The problem is when whoever is doing the install does NOT terminate the wires properly. Can be done with a screwdriver (if done slowly and carefully), but there is a correct/proper tool for punching down the wires and I would expect factory workers doing these to have the proper tool but it sounds like maybe not out there...

If you had spare time some day, it might be an interesting excercise to pull off a few receptacles and check the connections. In one I removed in our TT (to relocate up 6" for a cab. mod.) I found one conductor was improperly terminated. There are 2 "stabs" for each conductor and on one of them, only one stab had a wire connected and the other was all bent to crap and the wire unconnected. I doubt that the proper tool was used. I am going to check all the others.

[louis cherry]

Had The same problem with the 2004. Burn in two places. Redid with Buchan Fastners. I don't like wire nut on anything, high amp draw works on the spring inside them.

[louis cherry]

Made by Ideal Industries Inc. You can get at Radio Shack and the tool

[cfsoistman]

Originally Posted by myredracer

FWIW, I thought I would just say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the design of 120V receptacles in RVs. They are what is used in manufactured homes also. The problem is when whoever is doing the install does NOT terminate the wires properly. Can be done with a screwdriver (if done slowly and carefully), but there is a correct/proper tool for punching down the wires and I would expect factory workers doing these to have the proper tool but it sounds like maybe not out there...

If you had spare time some day, it might be an interesting excercise to pull off a few receptacles and check the connections. In one I removed in our TT (to relocate up 6" for a cab. mod.) I found one conductor was improperly terminated. There are 2 "stabs" for each conductor and on one of them, only one stab had a wire connected and the other was all bent to crap and the wire unconnected. I doubt that the proper tool was used. I am going to check all the others.

My only issue with the RV Receptacles is using them as a junction box. The front receptacle to the front TV had 3 wires connected to the receptacle. One for the TV receptacle, one that went down the window coulmn to the receptacle under the dash and the other to the Home Threatre Receptacle which also continued to the receptacle under the HT Cabinet. All three wires were pushed into the slots. However the first two wires opened the slot so much that the third wire just popped out of the slot as soon as I took the gray back cover off. So it was just floating in the receptacle. There was evidence of arching on one side of the receptacle. I ended up installing a seperate junction box and ran seperate feeds to each receptacle.

[cfsoistman]

Originally Posted by louis cherry

Made by Ideal Industries Inc. You can get at Radio Shack and the tool

I used the Buchanan Crimp Rings and Caps on all of the junction boxes I opened where there were more than 2 wires being connected. Basically the same type item as you posted. Thanks for sharing it with everyone.

[Bttravel]

Just read this very "interesting" post with the new adds. Quite an eye opener, MH, TT or whatever. I am completely flabbergasted that FR does not have any type of wiring schematic available or at least to refer to on a problem like this. Plus the way they "hide" JB's. Good grief. I think it might be time for the association to update some rules and guidelines for safety sake. How much easier would this whole thing have been if he had had a schematic available to figure out where things were. What a hair pulling episode in the rv life. Plus the photos scared the crap out of me. I've been through a house fire before and it is not something you want to repeat. Good job on tracking down the problem. Shame on FR for not having available printed support for something as simple as a wiring diagram. In this day and age I just don't get that. Just think where we might be without this forum??

[louis cherry]

When I have three wires or sometimes two large ga. wires I crimp them together adding a wire come out to go in the rec.s this will keep them tighter,but rv rec.s are the pits anyway. The dealer here has got a better aftermarket rec. they use you have a set screw to keep them tight.