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Old 03-04-2010, 10:04 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by windrider View Post
The electric solenoid is a great idea. Check the voltage on the valves for a rainbird sprinkler system. I installed several in a green house operation some years ago. Can't remember if they were 12 volt or 18 volt. If twelve volt, would have to operate a toggle to fill tank, then turn toggle off, removing voltage so valve would close, and transport. Could also run a wire from the pump pressure switch to open the valve when the pump ran, this letting air in. Sounds like a plan.
Ohhhh, Yeah! connect it to the pump, didn't think of that. This is becoming "overly complicated" (in my best DR. Evil voice) and I love it! Gonna have to put my thinking cap on now.

Last summer I had found a 12 volt solenoid sold by a small company online that was for just such a purpose. I will have to look around and see if I saved the URL for it.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:17 PM   #22
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If I'm not mistaken, the filler cap is not a sealed inlet, yes it tightens, but I believe it is vented with a two holes, one with the retainer lanyard to keep it from getting lost, thus the reason the vent hose is able to siphon, otherwise, the siphon would stop because the vacuum created (by the siphon process) would not be strong enough to collapse the tank, the purpose of the vent hose is to create a large enough vent when the high volume water is filling the tank. If this is the case, the solenoid connected to pump is a mute point
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:21 PM   #23
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Yep, you connect to the pump for letting air in when you need to. Will need a toggle switch/override to open the valve and let the air out while filling. Lowe's and Home Depot have irrigation valves, fairly small pipe for drip systems, barb fittings, I just can't remember the voltage rating. Would be great if they were 12 volt. I might can come up with wiring schematic if anybody would like. As I stated in an earlier post, doesn't affect me, but willing to help. Having and Electronics Degree has it's benefits.

Flyrotor, if you read all the posts, I think you will find it's not a siphon problem, it is apparently a "sloshing out" problem on these motor homes due to a shallow tank. The cap should seal on all trailers, due to health reasons and to keep rain out. The vent on my Work and Play is right beside the fill pipe, and actually higher than the fill pipe. The lanyard hole is only in the trim piece, and not through the fill pipe, yours may be different.

I hope I'm correct on all of this, and if not, somebody correct me. Just remember, I don't have a motor home, just trying to help.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:38 PM   #24
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Yep, you connect to the pump for letting air in when you need to. Will need a toggle switch/override to open the valve and let the air out while filling. Lowe's and Home Depot have irrigation valves, fairly small pipe for drip systems, barb fittings, I just can't remember the voltage rating. Would be great if they were 12 volt. I might can come up with wiring schematic if anybody would like. As I stated in an earlier post, doesn't affect me, but willing to help. Having and Electronics Degree has it's benefits.

Flyrotor, if you read all the posts, I think you will find it's not a siphon problem, it is apparently a "sloshing out" problem on these motor homes due to a shallow tank. The cap should seal on all trailers, due to health reasons and to keep rain out. The vent on my Work and Play is right beside the fill pipe, and actually higher than the fill pipe. The lanyard hole is only in the trim piece, and not through the fill pipe, yours may be different.

I hope I'm correct on all of this, and if not, somebody correct me. Just remember, I don't have a motor home, just trying to help.
Windrider,

The issue I keep running into is that we need a solenoid that does not require current in either direction. IE, you want to supply momentary +12v to open or close the valve. Most that I can find are "normally open" or "normally closed". Obviously we wouldn't want to have to energize the solenoid continuously to hold it open when dry camping or it would be a constant drain on power.

For that reason I was thinking that a normally open solenoid valve rated at 100% duty cycle that was engergized (closed) with +12 volt, ignition switched power would be the best idea. That way you could never drive off having forgotten to close the vent valve, the solenoid would do it for you as long as the ignition on the RV was on. When you shut off the RV then the solenoid would de-energize and open the valve.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:53 PM   #25
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That would be the best way, normally open valve, closed when 12 volts applied, wired to a switched ignition source. I was thinking irrigation stuff, and they are going to open only with 12 volts applied. That's why I suggested wiring to the pump, and override switch for filling. Normally open valve would work great, and simplify wiring. One wire to switched ignition source would keep it closed while traveling. Upon setting up camp, with ignition off, valve would be open. It would also be open for filling the tank, as long as the ignition was off, and would not be drawing any current while dry camping.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:03 AM   #26
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I like it! Not totally automatic since you still need to power it when filling the tank, but it gets rid of the possibility of forgetting to open it when getting at camp.

Windrider, there is siphoning going on. I've filled the tank in my driveway until it comes out the vent and it will keep sucking water until the tank is over half empty without moving. The sloshing when driving gets the siphon started if it wasn't already.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:27 AM   #27
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Siphon Question

I love the way you guys have taken off with my thread and brainstormed it to a solution. One question though. If I understand correctly during the water tank fill ignition stays off to allow air escape. Once the siphon draining starts to occur, then turn on ignition to close the valve. If the valve were opened again, wouldn't the siphoning start up immediately? I haven't tried this but wouldn't running a water tap or flushing a toilet stop the siphon? I know when I've siphoned gas or water the process interrupts easily.

While driving (ignition on) any water use would cause the pump to pull against a closed water tank system. I'm assuming the water tank is a plastic of some sort and could "shrink" a bit allowing a toilet flush or two. Once ignition goes off, valve opens vacuum is relieved but does the siphon start up again? If the siphon is always a potential, then a manual valve would seem to be the answer.

I occasionally get into a brain fart loop so forgive any stupid questions here.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:46 AM   #28
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I like it! Not totally automatic since you still need to power it when filling the tank
Actually Ron, no this wouldn't be correct. Solenoid valves can be bought in either "normally open" which means the valve is open UNTIL +12v is supplied to the solenoid, or "normally closed" for which the valve would be closed UNTIL +12v is supplied to the solenoid. Just like electrical switches.

Therfore: If you select a "Normally Open" valve the vent would remain open, UNTIL you turn on the ignition on the rig, then the valve would close. Power would not need to be applied in order to fill the tank.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:51 AM   #29
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While driving (ignition on) any water use would cause the pump to pull against a closed water tank system. I'm assuming the water tank is a plastic of some sort and could "shrink" a bit allowing a toilet flush or two. Once ignition goes off, valve opens vacuum is relieved but does the siphon start up again? If the siphon is always a potential, then a manual valve would seem to be the answer.

I occasionally get into a brain fart loop so forgive any stupid questions here.
The little amount of water used while on the road would not be a big concern as far as the vent being closed. If this were a concern you could have an override switch on the dash to cut power to the solenoid for that short amount of time but as it is now when we close the valve manually before we hit the road we still use water without the vent open.

Siphon could be a concern no matter which way you go. Whether the valve is opened by you or automatically a siphon could still start. My theory is that if the solenoid was installed right at the elbow on top of the tank then there would be no water head in the pipe to start the siphon process going.

When I hit the road yesterday to run the rig up to the repair shop I was in a hurry and forgot to close the vent. I drained water overboard all the way into town. The solenoid is starting to look better and better to me as my forgetful brain gets older.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:03 PM   #30
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Well to answer the question, "wouldn't the siphoning start again?", NO. If the tanks has a vacuum from toilet flush, or other water running, as soon as the the ignition is turned off, the valve would open, and air would be drawn through the valve, back in to the tank, thus equalizing the pressure. Seems the siphoning doesn't start until there is sloshing.

"KISS" every project, in other words, Keep It Simple Stupid. I don't have one, and have no idea what the tanks or hoses look like. Could you put a tee in the vent line where it comes out of the tank, then add a piece of hose on the tee, run it across the tank and up the fill pipe using zip ties. Get it as high as you can, and leave it there. Now fill the tank until the water comes out of the overflow. Nothing should come out of your added pipe if it's high enough. Water will take the path of least resistance, and shouldn't climb up the added vent, but the new line will act as vacuum break, and will prevent siphoning. Won't help with the sloshing problem, still need a valve.

One other thought, go under the rig where the drain hose is. Add a piece of hose long enough to go somewhere. That somewhere would be engine compartment or other place where the extension could be turned up and gotten higher than the tank. Then turn it back down towards the ground so it can be monitored for tank full. It only has to be an inch or two higher. Length doesn't matter to vent hose.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:25 PM   #31
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All good points Windrider. There still is the issue of my forgetful brain and a memory of 13 seconds. I may still pursue the solenoid here in the near future.
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Old 03-05-2010, 12:53 PM   #32
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Actually Ron, no this wouldn't be correct. Solenoid valves can be bought in either "normally open" which means the valve is open UNTIL +12v is supplied to the solenoid, or "normally closed" for which the valve would be closed UNTIL +12v is supplied to the solenoid. Just like electrical switches.

Therfore: If you select a "Normally Open" valve the vent would remain open, UNTIL you turn on the ignition on the rig, then the valve would close. Power would not need to be applied in order to fill the tank.
I missed that! I guess if you happen to overfill and start siphon you can always run in and turn on the ignition switch.
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:19 AM   #33
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Water Siphon

Okay, back from stormy Vancouver Island and ready to attack this problem. At an irrigation supply place I talked to a helpful guy who suggested a drip system anti-siphon valve on an elbow since it has to be vertical. As soon as I have a few minutes I will post pictures of the proposed solution. In the meantime you guys can pick holes in this approach using imagination only. So here goes:

Use a bayonet fitting to add two 90 degree fittings to the water tank vent hose. Add a threaded adapter to the last 90. Screw an anti-siphon valve into the threads and you're done. The whole shebang is located so its accessible from the covered hole in the water intake panel. When water is going into the tank a gentle pressure will not trip the anti-siphon valve. Higher pressure will. So I can put a finger on the valve to release air or I can leave a sink faucet slightly open to relieve pressure. When the tank is full, air will enter through the valve so the water pump doesn't strain while water is being consumed.

One problem I see is water in the J-trap created by the two 90s used to get the valve vertical. Water there could stop up the breather function of the vent. However, the suction created by the water pump should also pull water back up the vent line into the tank and air would flow through the valve per its design. Whaddya think?

Hope this is clear enough without photos. But will follow up.


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Old 03-16-2010, 07:38 PM   #34
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I promised a picture and here it is. These are the parts I've assembled to "terminate" the water tank breather hose so it no longer siphons. Will followup after I've had a chance to get out with a full water tank.

Starting at the top left there is a bit of the water breather hose I cut off to use at various parts suppliers. It is roughly one inch diameter. The next part is a 1" X 3/4" threaded male to slip female coupler. Next is a 3/4" to 3/4" slip elbow coupler. Next is a 3/4" slip to 1/2" threaded elbow coupler. Finally the dark part is a "Air/Vac Relief Valve". It is typically used in large diameter drip irrigation systems to vent air and prevent water flow. Sounds like our problem doesn't it?

I am going to screw in the threaded male part into the existing water tank vent line. Then I will couple the "U" portion of the parts which has been already glued up to the vent line with PVC glue. I still have to figure out bracing so the assembly doesn't vibrate to pieces. Will send a picture of that solution when I implement it.

I will be able to access the whole assembly from the water supply compartment. On a 391 the floor hole in that compartment opens near the drain valves and the vent line. When I hook up the water tank fill, I can open this access hole and see the installation I've made. If air pressure during the fill operation closes the gray air/vac valve then I can just push it down to allow air escape during water tank fill. If the tank fill doesn't push too hard, then the valve will allow air to escape. It will certainly allow air INFLOW as the pump pushes water out of the water tank during usage.

Again my one concern is that water resting at the bottom of my anti-siphon solution will block air flow. I'm hoping that water in the vent line and my "J" shaped solution will be sucked back by the water pump. Cross your fingers for me. More pictures to follow assuming it works. If you see a problem with this design let us all know.
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Old 03-16-2010, 07:40 PM   #35
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:24 PM   #36
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I promised a picture and here it is. These are the parts I've assembled to "terminate" the water tank breather hose so it no longer siphons. Will followup after I've had a chance to get out with a full water tank.

Starting at the top left there is a bit of the water breather hose I cut off to use at various parts suppliers. It is roughly one inch diameter. The next part is a 1" X 3/4" threaded male to slip female coupler. Next is a 3/4" to 3/4" slip elbow coupler. Next is a 3/4" slip to 1/2" threaded elbow coupler. Finally the dark part is a "Air/Vac Relief Valve". It is typically used in large diameter drip irrigation systems to vent air and prevent water flow. Sounds like our problem doesn't it?

I am going to screw in the threaded male part into the existing water tank vent line. Then I will couple the "U" portion of the parts which has been already glued up to the vent line with PVC glue. I still have to figure out bracing so the assembly doesn't vibrate to pieces. Will send a picture of that solution when I implement it.

I will be able to access the whole assembly from the water supply compartment. On a 391 the floor hole in that compartment opens near the drain valves and the vent line. When I hook up the water tank fill, I can open this access hole and see the installation I've made. If air pressure during the fill operation closes the gray air/vac valve then I can just push it down to allow air escape during water tank fill. If the tank fill doesn't push too hard, then the valve will allow air to escape. It will certainly allow air INFLOW as the pump pushes water out of the water tank during usage.

Again my one concern is that water resting at the bottom of my anti-siphon solution will block air flow. I'm hoping that water in the vent line and my "J" shaped solution will be sucked back by the water pump. Cross your fingers for me. More pictures to follow assuming it works. If you see a problem with this design let us all know.
You could always use a tee in place of the second elbow and add a female adapter and a screw in plug or valve to just drain out that water. I can't imagine that water would get sucked back into the tank.
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:34 PM   #37
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All the water doesn't have to go back in the tank. The suction just has to move the water out of the way so air can get in the tank. Looks like a plan, hope it works. As a "safety net", should you add a piece of hose over the the anti-siphon valve and route it through the floor, in case things don't work as planned, then the overflow would still hit the ground, and not be in the compartment. I'm not sure this can be done, just a thought. Good Luck.
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:44 PM   #38
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Thanks for your thoughts. Windrider's comments make me think that the normal siphon process fills the vent line with water. Under this arrangement there are two outcomes:

A. Overflow fills the vent line and slowly pushes air out of the vacuum valve till water gets to the end.

B. Overflow causes the vent line to close due to high pressure. Owner, me, allows air to escape by pushing the vacuum valve down till water hits. We are now manually back to the "A" outcome.

Either way the vent line is full of water and the valve is closed. When the water pump is turned on and a faucet or toilet or shower is used, then water is pulled from a full tank sucking the water out of the vent line with air coming in via the vacuum valve. Eureka! Sounds good.

Lets see how the real world screws this up. Unless I haul my MH to the house for testing I am a few weeks away from a trip and an outcome. Will let you guys know either way.
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Old 03-16-2010, 11:52 PM   #39
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Lets see how the real world screws this up. Unless I haul my MH to the house for testing I am a few weeks away from a trip and an outcome. Will let you guys know either way.
I seem to always operate on the 50/50/100 rule. That is, if there is a 50/50 chance that something will work right then there is a 100% chance it won't work for me.

Ya have me eagerly waiting for the outcome though. I'm pullin' for ya.
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Old 03-21-2010, 09:33 AM   #40
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Anti-Siphon Works!

I finally got a chance to install, test and photograph the j-trap like siphon solution. During fill up there is no detectable affect. I can't hear or feel air flowing out of the anti-siphon valve. Once full I got a very tiny amount of water coming out of the valve. Maybe a half pint. Apparently, the siphon pressure is not very high. Anyway, I started up the water pump and all went fine. I also pushed down on the valve and sure enough a fair sized stream of water came out while it was depressed.

If you intend to use this yourself a couple of cautions. I haven't used this long term yet nor have I traveled with it. Be sure to screw the nipple into the vent line before you glue the rest of the J-trap to it else you will have a hard time manipulating the whole contraption while laying on your back. You'll see in the photo I installed a ninety degree bracket to support the trap. The screws went into the baggage compartment where my Lippert pump and hydraulic setup are located. Use threaded screws matching your pre-drilled hole so you have an easy time setting them in place in the metal wall of the baggage compartment and don't have to go back and forth. I've also included photos of my water compartment and the view from the water line access hole where you can just see the j-trap I installed and where I can access it during fill up.

I also got into the water pump compartment trying to make the pump quieter. Not much available there. I tied down one line that vibrated. The large corrugated line is the vent line. You can see where Forest River looped it to try and reduce siphoning. I was also surprised to see a 10 amp in line fuse for the water pump back there. I wonder how many other fuses are hidden away in strange places. The large white thing in the back ground is the water tank. It's only about 10 inches high. The two red painted screws are the full and low water sensors. When I took this shot the water was over the 82 gallon mark on the tank.

If anyone has a water pump quieting idea let me know. Enjoy
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