Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2010, 12:25 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
NWJeeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Enumclaw, WA
Posts: 2,617
All good points Windrider. There still is the issue of my forgetful brain and a memory of 13 seconds. I may still pursue the solenoid here in the near future.
__________________

__________________
"I can fix it, and if I can't fix it, I can fix it so no one can fix it!"
Ed & Wendy
2009 Georgetown 378TS | 1998 Jeep Wrangler | 1998 Skeeter ZX202C
Nights camped in 2009: 53 | Nights camped in 2010: 55
www.nwjeepn.com
NWJeeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2010, 12:53 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
ronhanson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWJeeper View Post
Actually Ron, no this wouldn't be correct. Solenoid valves can be bought in either "normally open" which means the valve is open UNTIL +12v is supplied to the solenoid, or "normally closed" for which the valve would be closed UNTIL +12v is supplied to the solenoid. Just like electrical switches.

Therfore: If you select a "Normally Open" valve the vent would remain open, UNTIL you turn on the ignition on the rig, then the valve would close. Power would not need to be applied in order to fill the tank.
I missed that! I guess if you happen to overfill and start siphon you can always run in and turn on the ignition switch.
__________________

__________________
Ron Hanson
2009 Georgetown 350TS (bunks)
400W solar, 440AH 6V GC2
2009 Ford Edge AWD Ltd towed
2011 Honda Fit Sport towed
ronhanson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2010, 11:19 AM   #33
Senior Member
 
Lawfive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lafayette, CA
Posts: 157
Water Siphon

Okay, back from stormy Vancouver Island and ready to attack this problem. At an irrigation supply place I talked to a helpful guy who suggested a drip system anti-siphon valve on an elbow since it has to be vertical. As soon as I have a few minutes I will post pictures of the proposed solution. In the meantime you guys can pick holes in this approach using imagination only. So here goes:

Use a bayonet fitting to add two 90 degree fittings to the water tank vent hose. Add a threaded adapter to the last 90. Screw an anti-siphon valve into the threads and you're done. The whole shebang is located so its accessible from the covered hole in the water intake panel. When water is going into the tank a gentle pressure will not trip the anti-siphon valve. Higher pressure will. So I can put a finger on the valve to release air or I can leave a sink faucet slightly open to relieve pressure. When the tank is full, air will enter through the valve so the water pump doesn't strain while water is being consumed.

One problem I see is water in the J-trap created by the two 90s used to get the valve vertical. Water there could stop up the breather function of the vent. However, the suction created by the water pump should also pull water back up the vent line into the tank and air would flow through the valve per its design. Whaddya think?

Hope this is clear enough without photos. But will follow up.


George
__________________
Lawfive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 08:38 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Lawfive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lafayette, CA
Posts: 157
I promised a picture and here it is. These are the parts I've assembled to "terminate" the water tank breather hose so it no longer siphons. Will followup after I've had a chance to get out with a full water tank.

Starting at the top left there is a bit of the water breather hose I cut off to use at various parts suppliers. It is roughly one inch diameter. The next part is a 1" X 3/4" threaded male to slip female coupler. Next is a 3/4" to 3/4" slip elbow coupler. Next is a 3/4" slip to 1/2" threaded elbow coupler. Finally the dark part is a "Air/Vac Relief Valve". It is typically used in large diameter drip irrigation systems to vent air and prevent water flow. Sounds like our problem doesn't it?

I am going to screw in the threaded male part into the existing water tank vent line. Then I will couple the "U" portion of the parts which has been already glued up to the vent line with PVC glue. I still have to figure out bracing so the assembly doesn't vibrate to pieces. Will send a picture of that solution when I implement it.

I will be able to access the whole assembly from the water supply compartment. On a 391 the floor hole in that compartment opens near the drain valves and the vent line. When I hook up the water tank fill, I can open this access hole and see the installation I've made. If air pressure during the fill operation closes the gray air/vac valve then I can just push it down to allow air escape during water tank fill. If the tank fill doesn't push too hard, then the valve will allow air to escape. It will certainly allow air INFLOW as the pump pushes water out of the water tank during usage.

Again my one concern is that water resting at the bottom of my anti-siphon solution will block air flow. I'm hoping that water in the vent line and my "J" shaped solution will be sucked back by the water pump. Cross your fingers for me. More pictures to follow assuming it works. If you see a problem with this design let us all know.
__________________
Lawfive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 08:40 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
Lawfive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lafayette, CA
Posts: 157
Picture Added
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1100.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	61.4 KB
ID:	2285  
__________________
Lawfive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 11:24 PM   #36
CLASS "A" Senior Member
 
cfsoistman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upperco, Maryland
Posts: 3,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawfive View Post
I promised a picture and here it is. These are the parts I've assembled to "terminate" the water tank breather hose so it no longer siphons. Will followup after I've had a chance to get out with a full water tank.

Starting at the top left there is a bit of the water breather hose I cut off to use at various parts suppliers. It is roughly one inch diameter. The next part is a 1" X 3/4" threaded male to slip female coupler. Next is a 3/4" to 3/4" slip elbow coupler. Next is a 3/4" slip to 1/2" threaded elbow coupler. Finally the dark part is a "Air/Vac Relief Valve". It is typically used in large diameter drip irrigation systems to vent air and prevent water flow. Sounds like our problem doesn't it?

I am going to screw in the threaded male part into the existing water tank vent line. Then I will couple the "U" portion of the parts which has been already glued up to the vent line with PVC glue. I still have to figure out bracing so the assembly doesn't vibrate to pieces. Will send a picture of that solution when I implement it.

I will be able to access the whole assembly from the water supply compartment. On a 391 the floor hole in that compartment opens near the drain valves and the vent line. When I hook up the water tank fill, I can open this access hole and see the installation I've made. If air pressure during the fill operation closes the gray air/vac valve then I can just push it down to allow air escape during water tank fill. If the tank fill doesn't push too hard, then the valve will allow air to escape. It will certainly allow air INFLOW as the pump pushes water out of the water tank during usage.

Again my one concern is that water resting at the bottom of my anti-siphon solution will block air flow. I'm hoping that water in the vent line and my "J" shaped solution will be sucked back by the water pump. Cross your fingers for me. More pictures to follow assuming it works. If you see a problem with this design let us all know.
You could always use a tee in place of the second elbow and add a female adapter and a screw in plug or valve to just drain out that water. I can't imagine that water would get sucked back into the tank.
__________________

2007 Georgetown 370TS
aka - RAYNMKR

Driver: Charlie
Navigator: Sheri
cfsoistman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2010, 11:34 PM   #37
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 2,381
All the water doesn't have to go back in the tank. The suction just has to move the water out of the way so air can get in the tank. Looks like a plan, hope it works. As a "safety net", should you add a piece of hose over the the anti-siphon valve and route it through the floor, in case things don't work as planned, then the overflow would still hit the ground, and not be in the compartment. I'm not sure this can be done, just a thought. Good Luck.
__________________
LadyWindrider
2012 Ford F250 ext. Cab 4x4
2002 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
2008 Yamaha V-Star 650 Classic

2008 Work and Play 18LT
LadyWindrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 12:44 AM   #38
Senior Member
 
Lawfive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lafayette, CA
Posts: 157
Thanks for your thoughts. Windrider's comments make me think that the normal siphon process fills the vent line with water. Under this arrangement there are two outcomes:

A. Overflow fills the vent line and slowly pushes air out of the vacuum valve till water gets to the end.

B. Overflow causes the vent line to close due to high pressure. Owner, me, allows air to escape by pushing the vacuum valve down till water hits. We are now manually back to the "A" outcome.

Either way the vent line is full of water and the valve is closed. When the water pump is turned on and a faucet or toilet or shower is used, then water is pulled from a full tank sucking the water out of the vent line with air coming in via the vacuum valve. Eureka! Sounds good.

Lets see how the real world screws this up. Unless I haul my MH to the house for testing I am a few weeks away from a trip and an outcome. Will let you guys know either way.
__________________
Lawfive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2010, 12:52 AM   #39
Senior Member
 
NWJeeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Enumclaw, WA
Posts: 2,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawfive View Post
Lets see how the real world screws this up. Unless I haul my MH to the house for testing I am a few weeks away from a trip and an outcome. Will let you guys know either way.
I seem to always operate on the 50/50/100 rule. That is, if there is a 50/50 chance that something will work right then there is a 100% chance it won't work for me.

Ya have me eagerly waiting for the outcome though. I'm pullin' for ya.
__________________
"I can fix it, and if I can't fix it, I can fix it so no one can fix it!"
Ed & Wendy
2009 Georgetown 378TS | 1998 Jeep Wrangler | 1998 Skeeter ZX202C
Nights camped in 2009: 53 | Nights camped in 2010: 55
www.nwjeepn.com
NWJeeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2010, 10:33 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
Lawfive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Lafayette, CA
Posts: 157
Anti-Siphon Works!

I finally got a chance to install, test and photograph the j-trap like siphon solution. During fill up there is no detectable affect. I can't hear or feel air flowing out of the anti-siphon valve. Once full I got a very tiny amount of water coming out of the valve. Maybe a half pint. Apparently, the siphon pressure is not very high. Anyway, I started up the water pump and all went fine. I also pushed down on the valve and sure enough a fair sized stream of water came out while it was depressed.

If you intend to use this yourself a couple of cautions. I haven't used this long term yet nor have I traveled with it. Be sure to screw the nipple into the vent line before you glue the rest of the J-trap to it else you will have a hard time manipulating the whole contraption while laying on your back. You'll see in the photo I installed a ninety degree bracket to support the trap. The screws went into the baggage compartment where my Lippert pump and hydraulic setup are located. Use threaded screws matching your pre-drilled hole so you have an easy time setting them in place in the metal wall of the baggage compartment and don't have to go back and forth. I've also included photos of my water compartment and the view from the water line access hole where you can just see the j-trap I installed and where I can access it during fill up.

I also got into the water pump compartment trying to make the pump quieter. Not much available there. I tied down one line that vibrated. The large corrugated line is the vent line. You can see where Forest River looped it to try and reduce siphoning. I was also surprised to see a 10 amp in line fuse for the water pump back there. I wonder how many other fuses are hidden away in strange places. The large white thing in the back ground is the water tank. It's only about 10 inches high. The two red painted screws are the full and low water sensors. When I took this shot the water was over the 82 gallon mark on the tank.

If anyone has a water pump quieting idea let me know. Enjoy
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Jtrap.jpg
Views:	124
Size:	51.1 KB
ID:	2310   Click image for larger version

Name:	Hole.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	54.1 KB
ID:	2311   Click image for larger version

Name:	Jhole.jpg
Views:	118
Size:	32.5 KB
ID:	2312   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pump.jpg
Views:	112
Size:	68.0 KB
ID:	2313  
__________________

__________________
Lawfive is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




ForestRiverForums.com is not in any way associated with Forest River, Inc. or its associated RV manufacturing divisions.


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 AM.