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Old 06-21-2015, 07:40 PM   #1
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Oil Change Question

Hey Guys.. We have a 2014 Sunseeker 3050S with the Ford V10. I'm incredibly anal about maintenance. Last October I change the oil myself before I put her into indoor storage at about 2600 miles. I used Motorcraft 5w-20 Synthetic Blend and a motorcraft filter.

I now have about 400 miles and on the coach since I change the oil last fall (9 months ago). I know oil can break down (moisture from condensation). Because of the time should I change the oil before we start taking our trips. Our next trip will be about 500 mile round trip and the one after that will be about 2000. I was thinking about changing it after this short trip will be taking.

What's your thoughts? Run it or change the oil and filter because of time.

Thanks everyone...
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Old 06-21-2015, 07:51 PM   #2
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You didn't say if the indoor storage was heated or not. Still, I wouldn't change the oil. If I was going to change the oil as often as you probably will I certainly wouldn't waste money on synthetic, with all due respect.
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Old 06-21-2015, 08:05 PM   #3
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I would run it then think about changing. I think I would re think about using synthetic, unless you decide to start driving more miles during the year. Later RJD
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:41 PM   #4
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Synthetic blend that you used is correct and recommended for the V10 engine and I would use nothing less. You can often get Motorcraft synthetic blend at places like Walmart for less than "Dino" oil. You could step up to full synthetic which wouldn't hurt anything but is not needed IMO. I wouldn't worry about changing the oil until the end of the season if you only will have about 3000 miles on it. As for condensation forming over the year I wouldn't be concerned since engine crankcases today are sealed up good to minimize emissions. The engine temps today are also high enough to boil out any moisture that might form as long as you aren't doing a lot of trips a couple miles long where the engine oil does not reach operating temps.
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:50 PM   #5
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I agree with ATVer. Change once a year or every 5,000 miles. I'd change after all your trips this summer.
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Old 06-21-2015, 10:13 PM   #6
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once a year or every 5k.... I use 5w 20 weight as recommended... The only time I start using synthetic is once the engine is over 50k
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:07 AM   #7
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Your engine is a great refining/distillation unit. Condensation won't hurt the oil a bit and it will distill off as soon as you reach operating temps. On new (last 15+ years) the manufacturing processes and most of all, Fuel injection and ECU's keep your oil MUCH cleaner than years ago when 2000 miles changes were often recommended. I assume like most RV's your trips are typically not short in town ones. Those are by far the worst on oil and even those aren't nearly as bad as the old carb'ed days. If you want to feel better, after your next oil change send a "sample kit" in and have in analyzed. You will find that after even 6,000+ miles of highway use it will test close to new. (The suggestion above of 5000+ miles or once per year is a good rule of thumb.)


Unless you are doing a lot of VERY cold winter driving, or VERY hot summer driving (while towing) a synthetic is not usually worth the investment. (Clearly synthetics are better than stock dino oils, but overkill for the price with your change frequency and application.) Contrary to popular opinion and Madison ave, it will not give you any additional HP or MPG. (except in the cold extremes with short trips)


I have dynamometer tested probably 30 brands of synthetic and dino oil on dozens of engines for several companies and race teams. With measuring resolution of fuel use per seconds and HP in the 1-2 area, I have NEVER SEEN any advantage with synthetic at normal operating temps and application. There are some "semi-synths" that give you a slightly better oil for a much lower price if you want.


BTW, In all our tests performed for a large chemical company (tested about 20 brands of off the shelf brand name oils in misc weights, concoctions etc.) we only found 1 brand that concerned us in quality control (varying mixes from batch to batch) and even it performed flawlessly, meeting all expectations. (BTW, obviously a good brand name filter should be used at every change.)

To be fair, I use synthetic, but I get it much cheaper than retail



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Old 06-22-2015, 11:22 AM   #8
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Just did my first uneventful, no problems ( knock wood ] 3000 mile oil change on my Chevy and had Mobile one added. Chevy computor monitors percentage of usefull life of the oil, but I will do mine every 5000 miles. Mobile one is supposed to be good for 20,000 miles just change the filter like every 5000 miles, but I'll stick with full oil and filter change.
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Old 06-22-2015, 12:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppytoymaker View Post
Mobile one is supposed to be good for 20,000 miles just change the filter like every 5000 miles, but I'll stick with full oil and filter change.
Same here. It's probably not a problem, but it feels like taking a shower and putting on the same underwear.
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Old 06-22-2015, 07:31 PM   #10
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In theory synthetic is good for 20K, 25K or more and oil can be recycled since it doesn't actually wear out. Its the fuel, carbon and who knows what that requires us to change it. Furthermore, I don't know of a filter out there than can do 20K. My manual says 7500 miles on any rated oil, so I am very sure 7500 on better oil is okay. I run full synthetic and a good filter (read: not a fram); she holds 12 quarts at $8 each and a $15 filter. Every lubrication expert I've talked to, says modern oil is designed to go the distance the manufacturer claims and that changing at 3000 or 5000 is wasting your money. But, its your money. Just because some bozo puts a sticker on the windshield that says to do it again at 3000 miles or 6 months doesn't make it so.
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Old 06-22-2015, 07:47 PM   #11
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I used Mobil 1 full synthetic that was just a few dollars more than the Motorcraft oil and so did my brother. I noticed afterward that the motor seemed to run smoother and asked my brother about it and he noticed the same thing. Neither one of us were expecting anything so it wasn't the placebo effect. I don't know if it really made a difference though. If the Mobil 1 had been significantly more I would have no problem running Motorcraft as I have run that in my other Fords for years.
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Old 06-22-2015, 08:05 PM   #12
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Don't know how synthetic oil would make it run smoother. Maybe some plugged in something... electrical or vacuum (?) while the hood was up. What you have to watch out changing to synthetic is doing it in an old engine that has never had it, it will clean it up to the point of causing sludge and such to now be suspended in the oil. I would never start synthetic in an old engine (I would call old 60-80K plus miles). If that happens you have to change it again and right away. I sold synthetic year ago when we still could get leaded gasoline... this effect was really a problem then. It would clean or wash lead deposits into the oil and make it a light grey color. Lead isn't a very good lubricant and fortunately no longer and issue either.
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Old 06-22-2015, 08:47 PM   #13
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Synthetic oils have a much greater pour rate. So it is CONCEIVABLE one could notice a change right after startup. This is one of the reasons synthetic is much better in the winter time. Lifters are silent almost immediately, whereas with the same weight dino oil you can hear them for a short time.

There is no problem (nor good reason) to use synthetic in an older engine. You normally WANT sludge etc. to go into solution so that the filter can remove it. That is why oils contain sequestering agents.

Years ago there was an issue when using synthetics. Cork filters did not swell as well and older engines could leak a bit. This was addressed years ago. There is still a urban legend about synthetics leaking in an older engine that has SOME truth to it.; On old engine may already leak a little on the highway when warm, but may not leak much when cold. Use synthetic in it and the much higher poor rate with viscosity index and it may leak a bit more all the time. So you get a bigger spot in the driveway . This is usually not much of an issue now days either.

The biggest problem with synthetics (IMO) is they came around too late. By the time the main name producers offered them the dino oils and additive packages were so good, that the far better synthetic package wasn't needed. I wish we had them 30+ years ago in the racing industry. Effectively the molecular string in a synthetic oil can be designed to much better, handle heat, shear, load, viscosity indexing, sequestering, etc. than dino oil. But now days, the dino oil and its additive package (with much better engines and induction systems) make cheaper oils all you really need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfWhistle View Post
Don't know how synthetic oil would make it run smoother. Maybe some plugged in something... electrical or vacuum (?) while the hood was up. What you have to watch out changing to synthetic is doing it in an old engine that has never had it, it will clean it up to the point of causing sludge and such to now be suspended in the oil. I would never start synthetic in an old engine (I would call old 60-80K plus miles). If that happens you have to change it again and right away. I sold synthetic year ago when we still could get leaded gasoline... this effect was really a problem then. It would clean or wash lead deposits into the oil and make it a light grey color. Lead isn't a very good lubricant and fortunately no longer and issue either.
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Old 06-23-2015, 09:36 AM   #14
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Synthetic oils have a much greater pour rate. So it is CONCEIVABLE one could notice a change right after startup. This is one of the reasons synthetic is much better in the winter time. Lifters are silent almost immediately, whereas with the same weight dino oil you can hear them for a short time.

There is no problem (nor good reason) to use synthetic in an older engine. You normally WANT sludge etc. to go into solution so that the filter can remove it. That is why oils contain sequestering agents.

Years ago there was an issue when using synthetics. Cork filters did not swell as well and older engines could leak a bit. This was addressed years ago. There is still a urban legend about synthetics leaking in an older engine that has SOME truth to it.; On old engine may already leak a little on the highway when warm, but may not leak much when cold. Use synthetic in it and the much higher poor rate with viscosity index and it may leak a bit more all the time. So you get a bigger spot in the driveway . This is usually not much of an issue now days either.

The biggest problem with synthetics (IMO) is they came around too late. By the time the main name producers offered them the dino oils and additive packages were so good, that the far better synthetic package wasn't needed. I wish we had them 30+ years ago in the racing industry. Effectively the molecular string in a synthetic oil can be designed to much better, handle heat, shear, load, viscosity indexing, sequestering, etc. than dino oil. But now days, the dino oil and its additive package (with much better engines and induction systems) make cheaper oils all you really need.

The only thing I would add is Synthetic oils should not be used alone in any older engines as they have poor lubricating qualities and cannot protect an engine from damage that has flat tappet camshafts especially those with high valve spring pressures. Most engines made before 1989 have flat tappet cams. The old oils from the 60s and 70s are actually better than synthetics for these engines. The zinc based anti wear additives needed by old design engines were removed from the new oils. Good news is you can buy these additives and add them yourself to properly protect your engine.
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Old 06-23-2015, 10:45 AM   #15
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It's not "poor lubricating". Synthetic has slightly better lubricating qualities than dino oil. However prior levels of zinc phosphates did protect cams from scuffing and early life failure. That same material destroyed cat. convertors and were generally bad for the environment, so the amount of it was reduced in the 70's. It was never much of a big problem except with flat tappet, high lift, high spring tension cams. For race engines (about the only place you will find these cams today), there are several dino and synthetic oils available over the counter that contain the higher level of additives. These items are marked "Racing Oil Only" or "Not for Street Use", etc. Or as you mention ZDDP, etc. can be purchased alone and added by the consumer. No engines produced in the last 30+ years have these issues, and zinc is not needed or wanted. (Although they still contain slight amounts.) This is something you just don't need to worry about anymore.



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The only thing I would add is Synthetic oils should not be used alone in any older engines as they have poor lubricating qualities and cannot protect an engine from damage that has flat tappet camshafts especially those with high valve spring pressures. Most engines made before 1989 have flat tappet cams. The old oils from the 60s and 70s are actually better than synthetics for these engines. The zinc based anti wear additives needed by old design engines were removed from the new oils. Good news is you can buy these additives and add them yourself to properly protect your engine.
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Old 06-23-2015, 10:56 AM   #16
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We should just agree to disagree that synthetic has poorer lubricating properties.

Synthetic was initially (as invented by German engineer during WW II) created from chemicals (esters, as I understand it), but now most if not all now are just mineral oil; but are refined more highly. As far as I know only API even defines what synthetic oil is. As with most things marketed, what its called has little to do with what it is.

There are about as many "oil" myths as their are members on this forum. The oldest was that pennsylvania oil should only be used and never should an engine be changed to oil from another region...
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Old 06-23-2015, 02:47 PM   #17
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We should just agree to disagree that synthetic has poorer lubricating properties.
We can, but you will be left in the wrong wing. TRUE synthetic oil molecules are DESIGNED to any properties desired. THOSE oils have far better lubricating properties. (some I named above) Actually, I am not aware of ANY desired oil attribute that isn't better in a synthetic oil. (Maybe if you defined the "lubrication properties" that are not as good? (Shear stability, viscosity, evaporative loss, sequestering, detergency, oxidation resistance, etc. ?)

Yes, there are some oils on the market that take some liberties with the "synthetic " name. But, even those are better than regular oils.

Quote:
There are about as many "oil" myths as their are members on this forum. The oldest was that pennsylvania oil should only be used and never should an engine be changed to oil from another region...
Both of those are true statements. That is why I posted above. I tested and worked with labs that were testing these oils for compliance. I would like people NOT adhere to the old wives tales.
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Old 06-23-2015, 04:00 PM   #18
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I read ATVers comment thinking was talking about synthetic oil when he actually said, "older engines as they have poor lubricating qualities" I apologize, A. I wasn't disagreeing with JimS. I don't know of any attribute of synthetic that doesn't out perform mineral oil. It was my understanding that true ester based synthetic out performed mineral oil, even on surfaces such as tappets, but I have never seen an actual test. It doesn't matter because we can't get it anyway. The only thing I saw that seemed odd to me was if you added a thin coat of ester based synthetic on a surface, and heat was applied to the other side, the synthetic seemed to be repelled away from the hot spot and the oil seemed to "leave" the surface at that spot; using the same "test" mineral oil didn't. I've never had an expert comment on this "phenomena". This was supposed to imply that synthetic shouldn't be used in air cooled engines. Possibly mineral based synthetic doesn't have this issue. Comments?
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Old 06-23-2015, 04:22 PM   #19
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Understood.


I think I remember seeing this demonstration on TV It was for a "silicone" based product called "Duralube" or something like that? There were several silicone based products on the market a few years ago. All were garbage and several were sued by the FTC. (and some people lost their engine warranties due to it.) Even Dupont (silicone inventor and manufacture) said several times "We DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS IS IN internal combustion engines." But not sure if that is the same stuff you are talking about.


Never tried seeing what either oil type would do as far as repelling from hot spots. I do know that true synthetics will remain as oil and continue to lubricate past 400 deg F. Dino oil become nothing but crud at those temps. Also of note; There are several air cooled racing engines that often approach oil temps of over 350 to 380. They CANNOT use dino oils. I can also report that one of my Porsche is a 1985 Carrara with air cooled engine. It has never had anything but Mobile One synthetic in it (Or maybe a batch or two of RedLine) on the street or track. While it doesn't have a lot of miles on it for an '85 (65K) it performs flawlessly and uses no oil between changes.
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Old 06-23-2015, 06:20 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jim Schings View Post
Your engine is a great refining/distillation unit. Condensation won't hurt the oil a bit and it will distill off as soon as you reach operating temps. On new (last 15+ years) the manufacturing processes and most of all, Fuel injection and ECU's keep your oil MUCH cleaner than years ago when 2000 miles changes were often recommended. I assume like most RV's your trips are typically not short in town ones. Those are by far the worst on oil and even those aren't nearly as bad as the old carb'ed days. If you want to feel better, after your next oil change send a "sample kit" in and have in analyzed. You will find that after even 6,000+ miles of highway use it will test close to new. (The suggestion above of 5000+ miles or once per year is a good rule of thumb.)


Unless you are doing a lot of VERY cold winter driving, or VERY hot summer driving (while towing) a synthetic is not usually worth the investment. (Clearly synthetics are better than stock dino oils, but overkill for the price with your change frequency and application.) Contrary to popular opinion and Madison ave, it will not give you any additional HP or MPG. (except in the cold extremes with short trips)


I have dynamometer tested probably 30 brands of synthetic and dino oil on dozens of engines for several companies and race teams. With measuring resolution of fuel use per seconds and HP in the 1-2 area, I have NEVER SEEN any advantage with synthetic at normal operating temps and application. There are some "semi-synths" that give you a slightly better oil for a much lower price if you want.


BTW, In all our tests performed for a large chemical company (tested about 20 brands of off the shelf brand name oils in misc weights, concoctions etc.) we only found 1 brand that concerned us in quality control (varying mixes from batch to batch) and even it performed flawlessly, meeting all expectations. (BTW, obviously a good brand name filter should be used at every change.)

To be fair, I use synthetic, but I get it much cheaper than retail



Jim
Jim,

Great information here and thank you. I'm all about maintenance and yes, I tend to over do it. Like you, I'm able to get the Motorcraft Blend much less than retail price so for me it's by best choice for out Coach.

I'm a big fan of quality parts (i.e. oil and filters). In our Coach I only use the Motorcraft Filter. We also have a couple of Jeep Wranglers one which I tow behind our Motorhome. I only use Amsoil XL in my Jeeps along with the factory filter.

We only get the Coach out about once a month with a few of those trips under 100 miles and a couple of others are between 400 and 2000 miles.

We live in SWPA so it gets quite cold here in the winter and travel south while towing our Jeep behind it. Gets a little warm in South Carolina. We do store our Coach indoors during the winter and the place is kept at around 56 degrees with concrete floors. It's actually an old Sam's Club warehouse.

Again, thanks for all of you input and it sounds like I should just hold off until the fall for my oil change. By the way, where can I send out a sample of my oil to be tested and how do I go about doing so.

Thanks again..
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