secure wi-fi within campgrounds

[LittleBill]

Originally Posted by NXR

https://kingconnect.com/product/king...ender-kwm1000/

If it's the one in the above link it can't. And actually, none of them can. The reason is simply that everyone in the world is connecting to the same public network called The Internet. As soon as any unencrypted traffic leaves the WiFi Max and hits the Internet it's vulnerable to some extent. "Vulnerable" does not equal "Risk". Never has and never will.

Excerpt:

"How it works:

The KING WiFiMax Wi-Fi Router and Range Extender creates your own personal, private, and secure Wi-Fi network, just like you have in your home. When you are in range of an available Wi-Fi source, or a private network you have the password for—such as a visitor center guest network, coffee shop, hotel, or any other available source—you simply configure the WiFiMax to connect to that network. Then, it extends the internet access from that Wi-Fi source to your own private Wi-Fi network, giving you internet just like you’d have at home. You can connect all your Wi-Fi-enabled devices, such as laptops, cell phones, tablets, smart TVs, appliances, and more!"

Ray

Ray
Yes the link you pointed out is the WiFi Router and Range Extender I am considering. I understood the King rep at the Goshen Rally to say that the King encrypts outgoing data like your home system and will receive encrypted data back. Which to me that sounds like it would be secure. Do you think that is wrong and if I were to get it, it wouldn't give me the same security I have with my home cable network router (which I believe encrypts both ways out and in with https sites)?

Currently when we are traveling and need a secure connection to the internet I use my phone's hotspot. I will check emails and stream generally (when a connection will work) using a campground wifi, but for banking and financial stuff I use my phone's hotspot (haven't had any issues other than going through my data plan quickly). At home my cable router is passworded and I do everything (banking, financial, streaming, emails, etc) when connected to it.

If I was to get something like the King do you think I would still need to use my phone's hotspot as I do today when traveling?

IYHO would a dedicated hotspot with unlimited data be a better choice than something like the King WiFiMax for a reasonably secure network?

Note: Chrome is telling me that this forum link is "Not secure"

[NXR]

Actually, it looks like an intriguing device and I may look further at it. Right now I have everything connected to my hotspot and it's performance drops off when everything is connected. Maybe the King device can off-load some of the hotspot's workload.

That being said, Internet Security is an area where the snake oil salespeople reign supreme. Not just in the consumer space but also in the corporate and government space. As people progress in their careers they tend to become less technical and start applying their old, outdated, no longer relevant experience to today's threats. All the salespeople have to do is promise "automatically", "simplify", "compliance", etc. and they usually garner a sale.

So here is the easy way to think of this, I hope. What follows applies to both your home router and your mobile system. Yes, I can say this with confidence even though I have no idea what your home equipment is or who your home Internet provider is. And yes, it also applies to cellular hotspots.

• Think of the Internet as two people talking to each other. Both people need to speak the same languages and dialects for communication to actually occur. On the Internet the two "people" are "your equipment" designated as YOU and "the equipment where you are connecting" designated as THEY.
  
  
• If YOU are encrypting your data but THEY are not equipped to decrypt it, communications does not occur and you cannot get to their systems. (I think this is what the salesperson told you the King equipment could do?)
  
  
• If THEY only accept encrypted data (such as Gmail) and YOU do not encrypt your data, communications does not occur and you cannot get to their systems.
  
  
• If THEY only accept UNencrypted data, you must send UNencrypted data or you cannot get to their systems. There is no way around this. None. These forums only accept unencrypted data, which is why Chrome and other browsers mark them as not secure.
  
  
• When a website (or email system) is using UNencrypted communications, like these forums, the risk could be high for someone to steal your username and password. If you are using the same username and password on these forums as on any other account, STOP DOING THAT AND CHANGE THOSE OTHER ACCOUNTS RIGHT NOW. Clear enough?

I'm guessing you're with me so far.

Where a router such as the King unit might make a slight difference is if a web site accepts both HTTP (unencrypted) and also accepts HTTPS (encrypted) and the King router forces the encrypted connection. I do not know if the King unit actually does that, though.

Some years ago browser extensions were developed that take traffic to an HTTP site and automatically change it to HTTPS if YOU did not specify HTTPS and THEY accept both HTTP and HTTPS.

Nowadays almost all websites will automatically redirect an HTTP connection to HTTPS for you. But if you want to install such a browser extension, this is the one to get: https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere The EFF is a highly reputable organization but as always, trust nothing you read on the Internet without doing your own diligence. Yes, I use it, as far as you know.

Post-Snowden most website, email and other operators got a clue and started using HTTPS and encryption on everything. The graph I attached is from this link: https://transparencyreport.google.co...overview?hl=en and shows the percentage of HTTPS usage for the Chrome browser. Chrome has over 60% of the browser market share so it is by far the most prevalent browser. HTTPS usage is over 80% with the RV Life forums being in the minority. If you mouseover a line on the link you'll see the actual percentage for each operating system.

I use the FMCA Sprint hotspot because Verizon killed their unlimited data hotspot plan. Both capabilities are the best option if you need highly reliable Internet. You may be in an area where your hotspot has limited coverage so the Wi-Fi could keep you connected. The hotspot also can be used while driving. For example, I have my security cameras and Nest Protect smoke/carbon monoxide detector connected to the hotspot. If we're sleeping at a rest area or truck stop we usually have Internet access via the Sprint hotspot. Or via our Verizon phones.

Did I answer all of your questions?

Ray


PS: On the subject of passwords, longer is always better than complicated for encrypted systems, including your Wi-Fi router or hotspot. "Longer" means 30+ characters, not 9 or 10. I am 100% confident that if I tried to connect to your home or mobile Wi-Fi or hotspot and simply and automatically tried different password combinations against it, I will get in if you have a short password, probably within minutes or hours, not days. 100% confident. There is no "lockout" on these systems; they happily let anyone try as many passwords as they want.

When I was working, one of the companies we hired to try and break into our systems had built a password-cracking system that could attempt six billion (not a typo) passwords per second. They were upping it to 20+ billion attempts per second.

I do not care how good you think your passwords are. If they are short, none of them can withstand that kind of horsepower. I'm pretty sure they could not even withstand a million passwords per hour.

[LittleBill]

Ray
Thanks for you post #62 response and all the others you have contributed on the issue at hand - internet security. I am very appreciative of your insight you have given us. Even though I understand most of what you have given us, I will have to go back and get the finer points I may have missed on my first and second go arounds.

I like the idea of using a hotspot, whether my phone's or a dedicated one, in conjunction with a wifi extender as campground wifi can be difficult to get a good signal. I will look at Sprint's and other hotspots as you are right about Verizon's being $$ for unlimited data.

I'm still leaning towards the King WiFiMax from the standpoint that is what CC and other FR products are putting into their new units. As I am looking for a roof mount antenna, I hope to make a decision by the time I take my unit to Orvan in Nov. so he can install it in a more clean way then I ever can.

I understand about the need for longer passwords, which can still be hacked. Generally mine are a minimum of 9. But with over 130 logons between the DW and me, it is really hard to remember all the usernames let alone the passwords that go with them . When I went back to work at my old company 2 yrs ago for 1 1/2 yrs, they required a minimum of 12. Some needed to be changed monthly while others needed to be done every 90 days.

I will take your advice and try to do due diligence in whatever system/method I elect to go with. Thank you again for all your insight as I am sure others are also. Your knowledge and ability to communicate it, is outstanding.

[LCraddock]

Originally Posted by LittleBill

Ray
Thanks for you post #62 response and all the others you have contributed on the issue at hand - internet security. I am very appreciative of your insight you have given us. Even though I understand most of what you have given us, I will have to go back and get the finer points I may have missed on my first and second go arounds.

I like the idea of using a hotspot, whether my phone's or a dedicated one, in conjunction with a wifi extender as campground wifi can be difficult to get a good signal. I will look at Sprint's and other hotspots as you are right about Verizon's being $$ for unlimited data.

I'm still leaning towards the King WiFiMax from the standpoint that is what CC and other FR products are putting into their new units. As I am looking for a roof mount antenna, I hope to make a decision by the time I take my unit to Orvan in Nov. so he can install it in a more clean way then I ever can.

I understand about the need for longer passwords, which can still be hacked. Generally mine are a minimum of 9. But with over 130 logons between the DW and me, it is really hard to remember all the usernames let alone the passwords that go with them . When I went back to work at my old company 2 yrs ago for 1 1/2 yrs, they required a minimum of 12. Some needed to be changed monthly while others needed to be done every 90 days.

I will take your advice and try to do due diligence in whatever system/method I elect to go with. Thank you again for all your insight as I am sure others are also. Your knowledge and ability to communicate it, is outstanding.

Here's another option to consider for access that I use and that works well. I have an AT&T hotspot with unlimited data however, they can throttle you after 21GB if you're in a congested area.

So I purchased another sim to use in the hotspot and setup an account with OTR Mobile (https://otrmobile.com). It's a tad pricey ($60 / month - no contract) but I work fulltime remote and can't afford to have my internet throttled. I've traveled quite a bit and always had decent coverage. You can use their sim in lots of equipment and they also sell equipment.

Oh and naturally I left out the important point ... there is no data limit and they never throttle you.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by LCraddock

Here's another option to consider for access that I use and that works well. I have an AT&T hotspot with unlimited data however, they can throttle you after 21GB if you're in a congested area.

So I purchased another sim to use in the hotspot and setup an account with OTR Mobile (https://otrmobile.com). It's a tad pricey ($60 / month - no contract) but I work fulltime remote and can't afford to have my internet throttled. I've traveled quite a bit and always had decent coverage. You can use their sim in lots of equipment and they also sell equipment.

An OTR account is an AT&T hotspot and is subject to the same “network management” after 22 gigs. They are not throttled. I have a no longer available ATT unlimited data plan which is subject to the same management but I don’t think I’ve ever encountered it.

I also have the Verizon unlimited plan offered for about 9-10 months (disappeared in May). Now that plan can encounter network management on a regular basis. I won’t post what I really think about Verizon because the forum doesn’t allow those terms. I’ll only say I’ve encountered an amazing amount of dishonesty, subterfuge and incompetence when dealing with Verizon. Never had any problems with ATT or T-Mobile.

[LCraddock]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

An OTR account is an AT&T hotspot and is subject to the same “network management” after 22 gigs. They are not throttled. I have a no longer available ATT unlimited data plan which is subject to the same management but I don’t think I’ve ever encountered it.

I also have the Verizon unlimited plan offered for about 9-10 months (disappeared in May). Now that plan can encounter network management on a regular basis. I won’t post what I really think about Verizon because the forum doesn’t allow those terms. I’ll only say I’ve encountered an amazing amount of dishonesty, subterfuge and incompetence when dealing with Verizon. Never had any problems with ATT or T-Mobile.

I also have an ATT unlimited data plan. ATT definitely can and will ( if you are in a congested area ) throttle your access speed; I've had it happen. I realize that OTR uses the ATT network and I do not know the business arrangement but you are not throttled using their service and there is no data cap.

[jimmarako]

Wow. I came to check out the repeater and stayed for the refresher in networking. Thanks to all those willing to explain in decent detail how all this works.

So does anyone actually have one of these King repeaters (or similar)? Do they work at all? $100 is not that pricey, but to spend that amount to go from crappy campground WiFi to slightly less crappy campground WiFi may not be worth it.

I thought you could in theory use an old (or a cheap $30) router and do basically the same thing. My quick research seems to suggest that you may need/want 3rd party firmware or have to hack around a bit. Anyone go that route?

I would also think that you would really want to use an external antenna for the 2.4GHz network (assuming all campgrounds are on 2.4) to get a signal as good as you can. I see they have the Swift option but for a $130+ upgrade that seems quite high for an antenna and some coax. It could be very high quality stuff but somehow I doubt that.

Thanks
Jim M.

[5picker]

Nothing will take crappy campground WIFI and magically make it less crappy campground WIFI.

[NXR]

Originally Posted by 5picker

Nothing will take crappy campground WIFI and magically make it less crappy campground WIFI.

Right, with the clarification that there are two types of "crappy".

The first is a weak signal because you are on the fringes of the coverage. That's where an external antenna can help or an "extender" can help.

The second is an over-subscribed Internet service, which simply means they have X amount of capacity and all of the users totaled up are trying to use 2X or more capacity. Nothing can fix that. Well, nothing other than dressing all in black and walking to each site and flipping their power breaker off, that is.

Where a unit like the King can make things simpler as compared to installing a home router is that the home router needs a cable plugged into it to get Internet access. The King unit, instead of a cable, has an extra wireless radio that connects to the campground Wi-Fi to then get Internet access.

With such a device you can configure all of your equipment once to connect and then just change the King (or whatever) to connect to the campground Wi-Fi or a hotspot or a phone.


Ray

[NXR]

As an aside, the snake oil salespeople also sell Internet service and have convinced people that the more megabits you buy the faster your stuff will be.

Rub-bish.

I worked for a thousand-employee bank and we had precisely 15 megabits per second (15 M/bps) of Internet upload and download speed and there usually were about 500 people and devices using the Internet at any given time without performance problems.

Yes, with the usual home Internet service you could invite five hundred of your friends over and get good performance.

The biggest impact to an Internet service is the downloading of files, such as Windows Updates and other patches. Those run at 100% duty cycle unlike almost all other Internet services. Because they run at 100% duty cycle they tie up the capacity and your home router and/or modem have to work a lot harder. Many are not designed for that.

Most Internet services are fairly lightweight nowadays, even video steaming. Try it.

If you have Verizon's unlimited plan on your phone, the one that provides 0.6 M/bps (600 kilobits per second) of personal hotspot data, try connecting your device to it and see how it works. I think you'll find it works just fine. We've even streamed Netflix over it without dropouts or pixelation.

What kills Internet performance is something called "latency" or delays on the Internet circuit. Increasing your bandwidth cannot reduce latency unless you are using more capacity than your service offers. Only then will paying more for a faster Internet service help.

Ray

[jimmarako]

Originally Posted by 5picker

Nothing will take crappy campground WIFI and magically make it less crappy campground WIFI.

You mean one of these won't give me 5G speeds in the campground? It claims 2Gb/s bandwidth

OK to be fair I realize that the best you can do is however good or bad the campground WiFi is. The possible advantage I see is that if you can mount the antenna outside, maybe above the AC to clear any obstacles that you can at least get a consistent connection. Not one that drops out every time you shift positions or the dog walks by. Thats why I wanted to see if anyone has had good luck with something like this. $100 is too much to throw away just as a test.

Jim M.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by LCraddock

I also have an ATT unlimited data plan. ATT definitely can and will ( if you are in a congested area ) throttle your access speed; I've had it happen. I realize that OTR uses the ATT network and I do not know the business arrangement but you are not throttled using their service and there is no data cap.

Just to be sure we are on the same page here....throttling is a "hard" reduction in speed. ie, when you hit 22 gig of data use your service is throttled back from 10+ mbps to 600 kbps...and it stays at 600 kbps for the remainder of the current billing period. That's a pretty common situation on Verizon.

Network management occurs after a set limit (usually 22 gigs) and is based on cell tower congestion. It may drop from 10 mbps to 2 mbps for a total of 15 seconds but then stay at 10 mbps for the next 6 hours before slowing to 2 gig, etc etc etc. The following day, or when 30 miles down the road, the speed may increase to 55mbps.

I know some folks report network management encounters on AT&T several times during a billing period but that hasn't been my experience. I usually use less than 200-250 gig per month so maybe I just don't use enough data overall. I've noticed speed reductions only when I am at events that attract thousands and thousands of users. Example, at Bristol Nascar days one through five usual speed was about 40 mbps. Day six down to two mbps and on the main event day the speed was so low I couldn't get a speed test. Although I sure that was the result of network management I don't see that as a factor because EVERY user was encountering slow speeds on all devices. No matter what plan or super expensive device one is using it's going to be very slow when there are over 100,000 users within a one mile radius.

As far as Verizon unlimited during the same time as mentioned above, it went from 50+ mbps on day one to > one mbps on the third day. After the fourth day it was unusable. But, at least it was pretty fast after 1am when most folks were asleep.

[NXR]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

Network management occurs after a set limit (usually 22 gigs) and is based on cell tower congestion. It may drop from 10 mbps to 2 mbps for a total of 15 seconds but then stay at 10 mbps for the next 6 hours before slowing to 2 gig, etc etc etc. The following day, or when 30 miles down the road, the speed may increase to 55mbps.

I never worked in the cellular industry but usually network management is not dependent on your usage. It occurs when the overall capacity of the system (or cell tower) is approaching its peak capacity. And yes, it affects everyone connected to that system.

But perhaps cellular is different. We used Quality of Service ("network management") rules to automatically prioritize critical functions such as voice and online banking and occasionally to knock a bandwidth hog back to dial-up speeds.

Yes, it was not unheard of for a single obnoxious person to get "network managed" until they learned to play nice with others. All unofficially, of course.

Ray

[LCraddock]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

Just to be sure we are on the same page here....throttling is a "hard" reduction in speed. ie, when you hit 22 gig of data use your service is throttled back from 10+ mbps to 600 kbps...and it stays at 600 kbps for the remainder of the current billing period. That's a pretty common situation on Verizon.

Network management occurs after a set limit (usually 22 gigs) and is based on cell tower congestion. It may drop from 10 mbps to 2 mbps for a total of 15 seconds but then stay at 10 mbps for the next 6 hours before slowing to 2 gig, etc etc etc. The following day, or when 30 miles down the road, the speed may increase to 55mbps.

I know some folks report network management encounters on AT&T several times during a billing period but that hasn't been my experience. I usually use less than 200-250 gig per month so maybe I just don't use enough data overall. I've noticed speed reductions only when I am at events that attract thousands and thousands of users. Example, at Bristol Nascar days one through five usual speed was about 40 mbps. Day six down to two mbps and on the main event day the speed was so low I couldn't get a speed test. Although I sure that was the result of network management I don't see that as a factor because EVERY user was encountering slow speeds on all devices. No matter what plan or super expensive device one is using it's going to be very slow when there are over 100,000 users within a one mile radius.

As far as Verizon unlimited during the same time as mentioned above, it went from 50+ mbps on day one to > one mbps on the third day. After the fourth day it was unusable. But, at least it was pretty fast after 1am when most folks were asleep.

That's exactly right. Throttling <> network management and cell towers have a finite bandwidth. Once that's saturated, adding new connections necessitates reducing bandwidth for existing connections.

[NXR]

Originally Posted by jimmarako

The possible advantage I see is that if you can mount the antenna outside, maybe above the AC to clear any obstacles that you can at least get a consistent connection. Not one that drops out every time you shift positions or the dog walks by.

Probably but if you are consistently having this issue even at small campgrounds there may be something in your RV causing interference that is affecting the signal. Putting an antenna on the roof may help but may not unless your roof is metal or if the antenna is far away from where you're normally sitting.

For example, those cheapo "cigarette lighter to USB" adapters are notorious for generating broad spectrum electronic noise. You could try shutting off the power to your RV and seeing how the connection is. If there is no dramatic change that is not the problem.

Ray

[NXR]

Originally Posted by jimmarako

You mean one of these won't give me 5G speeds in the campground? It claims 2Gb/s bandwidth

Are you certain it did not say up to 2Gb/s bandwidth?

Ray

[jimmarako]

To be fair, I guess I exaggerated a bit, and they do give themselves some wiggle room:

Maximum Data Rates:
2.4GHz: up to 300Mbps
5GHz: up to 867Mbps
Combined max data rate: 1167 Mbps

Of course like all routers, they throw out that 1100Mb/s number while your still limited to the 30Mb/s or whatever your wall is feeding you. I guess if you are running an E-Sports party or a Plex server in your trailer then it helps.

Well like all good threads this seems to have veered a bit off the OP's original question. Hopefully he/she got the answers needed. I found it quite interesting and informative. Definitely better than the 11 pages I once read through on if you purge the air from you hose before connecting to the trailer (so you don't get air blowing out the faucets)

Jim M.