F.R. (Rockwood) Is broken

[JohnF]

Chill out. Let the dealer do his job. What he has to do with FR to get the work done is his problem, not yours. If I were a dealer, I would not of allowed you to go over the unit before I did. Many of the problems you saw, he would have seen and corrected in advance.

Do your final PDI and accept or reject the unit. You are still in the driver's seat.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by JohnF

Chill out. Let the dealer do his job. What he has to do with FR to get the work done is his problem, not yours. If I were a dealer, I would not of allowed you to go over the unit before I did. Many of the problems you saw, he would have seen and corrected in advance.

Do your final PDI and accept or reject the unit. You are still in the driver's seat.

Chill out? I have not begun to lose my cool about it but maybe I should have.

I appreciate your comments but if you were a dealer and would not let me inspect a unit I ordered we would not be doing business. To me that was no different than if it was an in stock unit and I walked in off the street. Before I would of even begun negotiations, I would of went over it with a fine tooth comb. And just so you know we discussed me going over that unit the day it arrived before we ever entered into an agreement.

To be clear, we were setting up the PDI and turnover for the Saturday following, which would of been 12-19. So instead of finding these issues when I did, I would of found them 4 days later. It would of been the same end result as I would not of accepted nor finalized the deal. The dealer would not have corrected the major issues in that amount of time even if he did find them. I can tell you for a fact he is not going to do one thing until he gets approval from Rockwood, and confirmation that he is going to get paid for correcting their manufacturing shortcomings. I can't say that I blame him now that I have seen whats involved. The dealer and I have talked at length about it, and believe me they do not think its ideal how they have to handle it based on the manufacturers policy. I was told "we used to just go ahead and do all this stuff and then submit it, but then they stopped paying us". So in good faith to satisfy the buyer they would go ahead and correct manufacturing issues expecting the manufacturer to reimburse them and evidently thats how it used to actually work. But at some point the manufacturer started screwing them out of that reimbursement.

If it was all the minor typical issues like loose screws, ugly caulk jobs, mis -aligned cabinet drawers, the thing would already be sitting in my yard. But exposed plywood, bowed corners, scratched windows, slides installed 3/4" out of square with the body, entry door installed out of square? Come on. You can accept that, I'm not.

It has now been 15 weeks since the day I put down a deposit with no confirmed end in sight. Tell me JohnF, how long do you think this should take, or should I just accept crap?

I think where I may of made my mistake is being too patient and reasonable. I am the customer. Its not my fault that between the dealer and manufacturer they closed for an entire week for the holidays, and then the dealer was swamped dealing with the local RV show, but I was willing to overlook that time loss. Now that's in the past and the process is dragging along due to Rockwood. If that is acceptable to you JohnF that's your decision, its not to me. On the brochures and websites they have "Customer satisfaction is our #1 priority". Well I intend to find out if that's an actual policy or lip service. I don't think when you order a trailer and you are told 6 to 8 weeks that expecting something without clear manufacturing defects and turned over in a timely manner, say 12 weeks, is too much to ask for is it? 15 and counting.

[JohnF]

I said if I was the dealer I would not allow you to inspect it BEFORE I did. I wouldn’t of called you to inform you that it was at my place until I had walked through it first. Some of the repairs as you reported them had to be very obvious and surely a dealer would of had them repaired before calling the customer in. I’ve been around long enough to see many RV’s immediately after they are dropped off at the dealer lot. They are dirty and as we all know, need some TLC from the dealer before being ready for viewing. I believe the dealer made a mistake by allowing you to see it before he had a chance to clean it up. Chances are he’s seen this stuff before and knows how to handle it.

[AquaMan]

Personally, when I do a PDI, I put things into 3 categories.
1) Things that don't work. (Is it not connected or faulty)
2) Things that work but not correctly. (leaking water lines, etc)
3) Cosmetic (is it damaged, misaligned, can it be corrected)
Then I go through my list and decide what I will fix or correct on my own. I know a lot of people say that "why should you have to do that, when you pay X amount of money?". It's simple, I can and will do a better job at fixing it than most service techs. By doing this, it greatly reduces my PDI warranty work, as most items are fairly simple (at least in my instances), and I gain an insightful knowledge to the workings of my rig. I know this isn't the case for everyone, but for me, it greatly reduces my stress level and dependence on the dealer. There are some things that I won't tackle, such as exterior build issues, unless I don't like a caulk job, then I will handle that. Improvements after the initial PDI, don't scare me a bit. I cut an 18"x24" hole in the side of my Sierra to create a new storage area for my outside fridge. I guess my theory is, things that just include time and not the expense of an item, I would rather do myself (and if they will get me the item, all the better).

[JohnF]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

Personally, when I do a PDI, I put things into 3 categories.
1) Things that don't work. (Is it not connected or faulty)
2) Things that work but not correctly. (leaking water lines, etc)
3) Cosmetic (is it damaged, misaligned, can it be corrected)
Then I go through my list and decide what I will fix or correct on my own. I know a lot of people say that "why should you have to do that, when you pay X amount of money?". It's simple, I can and will do a better job at fixing it than most service techs. By doing this, it greatly reduces my PDI warranty work, as most items are fairly simple (at least in my instances), and I gain an insightful knowledge to the workings of my rig. I know this isn't the case for everyone, but for me, it greatly reduces my stress level and dependence on the dealer. There are some things that I won't tackle, such as exterior build issues, unless I don't like a caulk job, then I will handle that. Improvements after the initial PDI, don't scare me a bit. I cut an 18"x24" hole in the side of my Sierra to create a new storage area for my outside fridge. I guess my theory is, things that just include time and not the expense of an item, I would rather do myself (and if they will get me the item, all the better).

X2

Some repairs can wait as well. I accepted my last unit with a cracked fresh water tank. It would only hold half a tank of water. The dealer was aware of it and ordered a new tank. I took it camping until the dealer called and said he had the tank in. We scheduled a day convenient for both of us and the work was done quickly.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

Personally, when I do a PDI, I put things into 3 categories.
1) Things that don't work. (Is it not connected or faulty)
2) Things that work but not correctly. (leaking water lines, etc)
3) Cosmetic (is it damaged, misaligned, can it be corrected)
Then I go through my list and decide what I will fix or correct on my own. I know a lot of people say that "why should you have to do that, when you pay X amount of money?". It's simple, I can and will do a better job at fixing it than most service techs. By doing this, it greatly reduces my PDI warranty work, as most items are fairly simple (at least in my instances), and I gain an insightful knowledge to the workings of my rig. I know this isn't the case for everyone, but for me, it greatly reduces my stress level and dependence on the dealer. There are some things that I won't tackle, such as exterior build issues, unless I don't like a caulk job, then I will handle that. Improvements after the initial PDI, don't scare me a bit. I cut an 18"x24" hole in the side of my Sierra to create a new storage area for my outside fridge. I guess my theory is, things that just include time and not the expense of an item, I would rather do myself (and if they will get me the item, all the better).

This is pretty much how I do things. It seems like the more anal I am about something being perfect the more likely it is that something will happen to it anyway!

To Mr. H- As far as the exposed luan under the wheel wells- I would suggest installing aluminum liners to protect in the case of a blowout and kill 2 birds with one stone. On my rig, the rear corner of the slide was just behind the rear tire and water would come through when driving. I had a local shop cut two 1/4" thick aluminum sheets and put a bend in them for wheel well liners. No more water and a layer of protection in case of a blowout. Cost me $180, but I figured that was pretty cheap for my peace of mind.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by JohnF

I said if I was the dealer I would not allow you to inspect it BEFORE I did. I wouldn’t of called you to inform you that it was at my place until I had walked through it first. Some of the repairs as you reported them had to be very obvious and surely a dealer would of had them repaired before calling the customer in. I’ve been around long enough to see many RV’s immediately after they are dropped off at the dealer lot. They are dirty and as we all know, need some TLC from the dealer before being ready for viewing. I believe the dealer made a mistake by allowing you to see it before he had a chance to clean it up. Chances are he’s seen this stuff before and knows how to handle it.

I can agree with some of that, and I dont intend or want to stand there and supervise the work. Maybe he did make a mistake but I am glad he did.

Just for your info they did walk through it first. They had inspected it prior to accepting it from the transporter. They had also taken a whole group of pictures that they used on their websites as general pictures for this model because it was the first 23WS they have had on their lot.

My entire post/rant is not about the dealer making a mistake, or even Rockwoods lack of QC or attention to detail in this case. Its all about the amount of time it takes to get anything resolved.

All I want is a trailer without blatant defects delivered in a timely manner. I guess that's too much to ask for. The dealer, the manufacturer, I don't care who. Its been 15 weeks with no one being able to even say when it will be resolved.There is nothing I would have liked better than to have just walked in there on December 19th, signed on the line and towed it home.

What else is not happening is this trailer going on my dime and sitting on a lot somewhere waiting on this idiotic process to be completed. I am not going to leave there with any issues that it needs to go back for. I have also said if its something that needs parts and I agree to do it myself once they get the parts, I am open to that.


AquaMan, I am with you on all of that and have done a ton of it to 3 other rigs. I am not a new to this by a longshot. I'd love to post the original email sent to the dealer here, but I'm not going to at this time. In it, and the dealer knows this, I am not beyond what you mention. I however am not into removing and reinstalling entry doors to make them close all the way, removing and rebuilding slide outs to get them to align when they stick out like a sore thumb when viewed from 75' away, or taking on the responsibility for raw luan plywood edges in a wheel well. As far as the exposed luan. If Rockwood was to provide to me in writing that the exposed luan is by design I would accept that. At least then its recorded in the unit file if something delaminates down the road due to it after warranty. I even mentioned that in my email sent to the dealer in December.

Dustman, don't think I haven't thought about that, all my other trailer had metal wheel wells, not this plastic crap Rockwood is using.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by JohnF

Chill out. Let the dealer do his job. What he has to do with FR to get the work done is his problem, not yours. If I were a dealer, I would not of allowed you to go over the unit before I did. Many of the problems you saw, he would have seen and corrected in advance.

Do your final PDI and accept or reject the unit. You are still in the driver's seat.

This is true he is in the driver seat, as far as letting the dealer go through it first. I have been that route and still had atleast 10 items that I found after his dealer prep. They were all corrected by them before I signed the bottom line. Then came my 2 year warranty. I only left the unit one time and that was a big mistake, took them over 3 weeks to aline my slide. It was a 30 min job. After that lesson I made sure they had my parts needed before I drove 75 miles and I waited for it to bring it back. Over the 2 years I went back at least 5x's to have stuff replaced such as my TV, Microwave and convertor to name a few....The dealer pays and employs people who knew less then me. When I paid to have some JT'S put on, they sat down and read the instructions on my dime not theirs..... So I say good for him..

[blwnsmoke]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

My entire post/rant is not about the dealer making a mistake, or even Rockwoods lack of QC or attention to detail in this case. Its all about the amount of time it takes to get anything resolved.

You are absolutely correct. I am currently on month 16 of my 12 month warranty to have my final repairs completed from the original PDI lol. Long story short, I bought out of state, had it delivered to my house 2 days before we left for our first trip. My camper came off the assembly line, got to the dealer and left 24 hours later to travel 1,200 miles to me.

Long story short (for now), I've had to drop if off for work, wait for approval, has parts ordered and then take it back while on order so I could enjoy it this past summer. Then drop it off, have the wrong parts reordered, pick it up and enjoy it some more.. we played this game all summer long and seems that every time we went camping, we found something else that wasn't correct. So it has been a VERY long process but I have to say, I absolutely love this camper and floor plan. I've kept my cool throughout the whole process because I never lost any camping time.

This is not the dealer's fault.. it is purely the factory and manufacture. From submitting warranty work to ordering parts to receiving parts to installing can take 6-8 weeks at times, especially in the busy summer season.

Fortunately I emailed FR a few days before my warranty was up to advise them my camper is going back in and listed every issue still outstanding because I would not get it in before the 12 months were up. A month later, Camping World tells me that FR is denying warranty because I'm beyond the 12 months.

Fortunately I had that email and I copied my Service Advisor on it back then so they went to battle and FR finally agreed to cover it. The people at my local Camping World are fantastic.. I've known them for 8 years so I know it is not them, it is purely FR..

I'm glad that everything will be 100% in the next week and will have it back. And after that it will be customer pay so I know it will be much faster since I don't have to play the Warranty approval game.

I'll be writing a book about all this on here once I get it back and I get my copy of the 1" thick work order.

[CaptnJohn]

Sitting on the lot waiting for 15 weeks!!!!??? If down the road a warranty needs addressed could it take another 6 months? They don't even have your money yet~~ maybe Rockwood invoiced the dealer already. Normally I would let loose after 30 days without a resolution and complete date but holidays and shows,,, make that 6 weeks. At this point I would want a completion date within 30 days or my deposit returned. As I live in the south and do not winterize I would have let loose long ago. AND ~~ not only would not want that unit but after this long would be turned off by Rockwood too,

[JohnF]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

Sitting on the lot waiting for 15 weeks!!!!??? If down the road a warranty needs addressed could it take another 6 months? They don't even have your money yet~~ maybe Rockwood invoiced the dealer already. Normally I would let loose after 30 days without a resolution and complete date but holidays and shows,,, make that 6 weeks. At this point I would want a completion date within 30 days or my deposit returned. As I live in the south and do not winterize I would have let loose long ago. AND ~~ not only would not want that unit but after this long would be turned off by Rockwood too,

I believe it has been 15 weeks since the day he ordered and the unit has been at the dealership since mid December. It got caught up in the Holiday shut downs and the Janurary RV shows.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

Sitting on the lot waiting for 15 weeks!!!!??? If down the road a warranty needs addressed could it take another 6 months? They don't even have your money yet~~ maybe Rockwood invoiced the dealer already. Normally I would let loose after 30 days without a resolution and complete date but holidays and shows,,, make that 6 weeks. At this point I would want a completion date within 30 days or my deposit returned. As I live in the south and do not winterize I would have let loose long ago. AND ~~ not only would not want that unit but after this long would be turned off by Rockwood too,

In fairness, It has been 15 weeks since I plopped down a deposit and it did not arrive until around 12-11. I am fine with it.

I want this unit, in the whole big scheme of things its really not bad other than the wheel well plywood and slide out. I say that with a disclaimer because I still don't know what any of the systems have in store for me. I've owned two other hybrids purchased new, so none of it is a surprise. They were different brands and different dealers, not F.R., but were not without issues. The way the issues were handled however prior to purchase was a completely different experience.

I know my hybrids and right now there is not another manufacturer making a floor plan I would be interested in other than this 23WS. If I made a mistake through this whole ordeal it was selling my 2013 Keystone already, because if I still had it this whole scenario would now be going in a different direction.

[Mr Havercamp]

@ blwnsmoke, Seeing that you have a Coachmen I do not find that surprising, having heard some of the things I have heard about their warranty process. Rockwood is a different animal, or at least I believed it was. I know quite a few people with Rockwoods who swear by the customer service, have had things repaired after the warranty was expired, have even had things replaced free years after the warranty expired such as hybrid bunk doors, or at extremely discounted rates. Those weighed heavily in my decision to order this unit and it was not a spur of the moment decision or impulse buy. I had almost pulled the trigger on a Roo back in November of 2012 but for a few reasons ended up buying a Keystone.

I still have a little hope its just all a big mix up, or the right don't know what the left is doing, or can be blamed on time of year etc. I am starting to lose my confidence, for lack of a better word, in all of it.

[Witch Doctor]

Hang in there haveacamp, you will be alright...

[Brewhedd]

Wow, I feel lucky. My 2015 Rockwood 2702 SS has been problem free except for a few small issues. As far as the RV manufacturers, they have some serious quality issues. It seems like all businesses these days have issues though. It's rare to find a company that does it 100% right the first time or does exactly what they say they are going to do.

[dan-nickie]

Mr Haverkamp, I wonder if you frustration is pointing in the wrong place?

When I read the OP closely, it seems it took your dealer about a month just to get the PDI tech to look at it. They told you there were getting the paperwork ready on the 14th, but did those 20 pages actually gets submitted on that date or actually later? I'll assume they submitted the paperwork on the 15th.

Since you started this thread on the 22nd, it seems you only gave the manufacturer 4 'working' days before posting this.

Is everything correct so far?

It seems you are pretty friendly with the dealer and are going by some of the things you have heard around their business about how long things take.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the warranty process as much as anyone. It just seems that everyone (including you) dragged their feet up until this point but the manufacturer doesn't get cut any slack at all.

I'd call the manufacturer and see when they received the paperwork.

Good luck. Hope it all works out for you soon.

[DreiHunde]

Hope all goes as you want from now on!
My one warranty issue I had with my Coachmen was handled quickly and of really no major inconvenience. That experience and the fact of no issues during my PDI or any others to this day except for that one time (and loose screws occasionally ) are the reasons why this dealer and Coachmen will be automatically on my "shortlist" when it comes time to buy again!

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by dan-nickie

Mr Haverkamp, I wonder if you frustration is pointing in the wrong place?

When I read the OP closely, it seems it took your dealer about a month just to get the PDI tech to look at it. They told you there were getting the paperwork ready on the 14th, but did those 20 pages actually gets submitted on that date or actually later? I'll assume they submitted the paperwork on the 15th.

Since you started this thread on the 22nd, it seems you only gave the manufacturer 4 'working' days before posting this.

Is everything correct so far?

It seems you are pretty friendly with the dealer and are going by some of the things you have heard around their business about how long things take.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the warranty process as much as anyone. It just seems that everyone (including you) dragged their feet up until this point but the manufacturer doesn't get cut any slack at all.

I'd call the manufacturer and see when they received the paperwork.

Good luck. Hope it all works out for you soon.

Maybe you're right, who knows. Since I sent the email yesterday everyone has a copy of the entire history with dates, what was said, and by whom so all cards are now on the table. As far as dragging feet I am allowed to drag my feet. I am the customer. I am cutting the manufacturer about all the slack I intend to cut. I have not made any demands to date, or threats, or anything else. I have not badmouthed Forest River, Rockwood, or the dealer. I am just stating facts. My email was professional and courteous. I'm simply asking for answers to a couple of questions such as what are you, you being both of those entities, going to do and when are you going to be done doing it? Really simple. On Friday the dealer told me they can not give me a date because its in Rockwood's court. That's exactly what I put in the email, nothing more/nothing less. As far as I'm concerned, when they left this unit leave Millersburg with some of these defects, they caused this mess and do not deserve to have any slack cut even though I cut it. I even stated in my email I would not have a problem if I do not take possession until mid March which was probably a mistake on my part. I believe I am being more than reasonable about it. It can't be an endless process. I build commercial buildings and can't tell an owner. Oh well we don't have this beam or this 2x4, so you'll get your building someday. I wish I could sometime though.

Its always the buyers who cause it. Being too picky, or being impatient, or not being thorough enough at the PDI.

If it turns out the dealer is part of the delay so be it. I'm certainly not married to them, but as I have said numerous times the entire system is a screwed up mess. I believe in giving credit where its due one way or the other, and once this is over I'll review accordingly.

Appreciate your comments.

[dan-nickie]

I've read a number of times on the forums and you been around long enough to have read it also, that the dealers did not submit the paperwork when they said they did.
Please let us know whatever you find out.

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

. . . .

My entire post/rant is not about the dealer making a mistake, or even Rockwoods lack of QC or attention to detail in this case. Its all about the amount of time it takes to get anything resolved.
. . . .

Speaking of time intervals for resolution, I made a strange discovery when I was having time issues getting warranty work done on my Wildcat. My service manager was calling F.R. Wildcat's warranty manager and when he didn't answer (probably swamped!), my S.M. was leaving as a call-back number a phone in the shop which was almost always unattended. Techs were almost always out in the lot working on something out there. When he started leaving his cell phone number, things magically started moving faster. Whodda thunk?