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Old 08-29-2018, 07:29 PM   #21
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Just a word about the "warranty"

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Originally Posted by MR.M View Post
You are correct . get them out the door let owner and dealer worry about finishing product or warranty . many more have issues then not , quality is a joke . cheapest materials cheapest labor , cheapest everything. you can get a good one every now and then . but plan on having issues . most are not so bad and can get taken care of but plan on the first 6 months being in and out of warranty . it would do you well to hire someone with experience to check it over before you pay
When you buy a car or truck, it may have an air conditioner compressor by Aiwa, a transmission by AW North Carolina, and light bulbs by TungSol. But the manufacturers have generally screened these items for quality, and warranty coverage is supplied by the car/truck manufacturer (except maybe tires).

RVs are different. The manufacturers apparently don't bother to test parts before they build with them--we've read on the forum about recalls of everything from suspension components to seating upholstery.

And they have apparently never heard of the word "supply chain." We've heard stories on these forums where sheet metal screws were installed in tapped holes because they ran out of machine screws, where safety hand rails were omitted because they ran out of them. In any other industry this would be a "line down" situation where production would be halted until parts were available and heads would roll. It's not like supply chain management software is not available. There's Excel at one end and SAP at the other and dozens of options in between. For some reason, it doesn't appear to be used, however. Prior to becoming CEO of Apple Computer, Tim Cook had a successful career at IBM, culminating as Director with supply chain responsibilities. He also had supply chain responsibilities at Compaq and as his first assignment at Apple. These companies thought supply chain expertise was important enough to lure a key employee from competitors. RV manufacturers don't seem to understand that.

The RV manufacturers are unwilling to assume the responsibility for coverage of their purchased components. If the refrigerator breaks, they say "Not our problem. Go talk to Dometic." If the water heater breaks, "Go talk to Suburban (or Atwood)." Frame: Lippert or Dexter. And if you have a problem that can't be isolated between two components from different manufacturers, good luck. This would be unheard of in the automotive world, the appliance world, the television/electronics world, but the RV folks seem to be "special."

I like to work on my own house/car/appliances/electronics, network, and trailers. I buy the cars and trailers used and do my own work (about everything but alignment and tires). And most of the folks who populate these forums do likewise.

The folks who write to BBB don't know which end of a screwdriver is the handle. Their expectations may be okay for Cadillac, but simply don't fit with the way RVs are delivered, as described in my first four paragraphs.

Larry
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Larry-NC View Post
When you buy a car or truck, it may have an air conditioner compressor by Aiwa, a transmission by AW North Carolina, and light bulbs by TungSol. But the manufacturers have generally screened these items for quality, and warranty coverage is supplied by the car/truck manufacturer (except maybe tires).

RVs are different. The manufacturers apparently don't bother to test parts before they build with them--we've read on the forum about recalls of everything from suspension components to seating upholstery.

And they have apparently never heard of the word "supply chain." We've heard stories on these forums where sheet metal screws were installed in tapped holes because they ran out of machine screws, where safety hand rails were omitted because they ran out of them. In any other industry this would be a "line down" situation where production would be halted until parts were available and heads would roll. It's not like supply chain management software is not available. There's Excel at one end and SAP at the other and dozens of options in between. For some reason, it doesn't appear to be used, however. Prior to becoming CEO of Apple Computer, Tim Cook had a successful career at IBM, culminating as Director with supply chain responsibilities. He also had supply chain responsibilities at Compaq and as his first assignment at Apple. These companies thought supply chain expertise was important enough to lure a key employee from competitors. RV manufacturers don't seem to understand that.

The RV manufacturers are unwilling to assume the responsibility for coverage of their purchased components. If the refrigerator breaks, they say "Not our problem. Go talk to Dometic." If the water heater breaks, "Go talk to Suburban (or Atwood)." Frame: Lippert or Dexter. And if you have a problem that can't be isolated between two components from different manufacturers, good luck. This would be unheard of in the automotive world, the appliance world, the television/electronics world, but the RV folks seem to be "special."

I like to work on my own house/car/appliances/electronics, network, and trailers. I buy the cars and trailers used and do my own work (about everything but alignment and tires). And most of the folks who populate these forums do likewise.

The folks who write to BBB don't know which end of a screwdriver is the handle. Their expectations may be okay for Cadillac, but simply don't fit with the way RVs are delivered, as described in my first four paragraphs.

Larry

Agree !
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Old 08-29-2018, 10:41 PM   #23
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"Are these RV's really built with no regulations and underpaid workers just trying to get as many built in the shortest amount of time?" Far too often, the answer is YES.

I understand that last year (2017), OVER 500,000 new RVs were shipped (a record) and, the industry expects to ship even more this year. Almost 90% of the market is controlled by only two "800 pound gorillas"; Forest River and Thor Industries (each with many subsidiaries). Maximizing profit seems to be FAR more important than delivering QUALITY. Many (most?) RVs are shipped without a THOROUGH QC inspection before they're shipped ("random specimens" get checked; I've been told that it would be too costly to inspect EVERY unit).

The industry gets a LOT of the components they use from a single source; Lippert Components (LCI). NO competition often leads to less innovation, lower quality and eventually, higher prices.

As already mentioned, do the MOST THOROUGH PDI that is humanly possible. Videoing it could be VERY helpful down the road (if only to be a reminder; there's a LOT of ground to cover in a proper PDI). I also agree with the sentiment of NOT accepting any RV until it's EXACTLY what was promised and, that EVERYTHING does work as expected. Gary Bunzer, the "RV Doctor" teaches that water intrusion does the most damage in an RV so, if there are ANY signs of water leaks, DO NOT accept that unit (and take note of the VIN). Many buyers are handy and don't mind repairing problems. As far as I'm concerned, problems mean that something went wrong during the build (and if ONE thing went wrong, what else went wrong?). If there are ANY problems noticed during the PDI, you should be worried.

Talk to as many owners as possible. The number and variety of horror stories is shocking. If you get a"perfect" RV, GREAT. Do everything you can to insure that the RV YOU get IS perfect (Moe, Larry & Curly are still building LOTS of RVs )
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:06 PM   #24
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This video shows the actual assembly, with dangerous working conditions (lots of trip hazards, workers close by to welding operations with no eye shielding, etc.) and high speed work that is an invitation to poor quality workmanship:

https://youtu.be/6apZD-2k2gM
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Old 08-30-2018, 08:37 AM   #25
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Yes the PDI is the key!!! Make sure it is fixed before you drive it off the lot or you will be back. My problem is the guys that work in the service dept. they are not trained at the factory like it says on Mike Thompson's website, I had a foreman tell me that from there.
I would never recommend them to anyone, since all the BS we went thru!!!
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Old 08-30-2018, 08:44 AM   #26
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My thoughts. Make this a business dealing and not an emotional purchase. Find one you like, negotiate a good deal and do a very thorough PDI. Anything you find that you are not comfortable fixing yourself, tell the dealer to fix it and contact you when it is ready for a second PDI, Then you will sign for it. DO NOT take it with the understanding" you can use it for a while and return it with a list of items for us to fix" Warranty work is not as profitable as off the street repairs and if it is repaired, it will take a long time. Quality varies, I have had my TT 4 years and no issues, others have had nothing but issues. Do not be afraid to walk away and retry elsewhere or with another unit.
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Old 08-30-2018, 10:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry-NC View Post
When you buy a car or truck, it may have an air conditioner compressor by Aiwa, a transmission by AW North Carolina, and light bulbs by TungSol. But the manufacturers have generally screened these items for quality, and warranty coverage is supplied by the car/truck manufacturer (except maybe tires).

RVs are different. The manufacturers apparently don't bother to test parts before they build with them--we've read on the forum about recalls of everything from suspension components to seating upholstery.

And they have apparently never heard of the word "supply chain." We've heard stories on these forums where sheet metal screws were installed in tapped holes because they ran out of machine screws, where safety hand rails were omitted because they ran out of them. In any other industry this would be a "line down" situation where production would be halted until parts were available and heads would roll. It's not like supply chain management software is not available. There's Excel at one end and SAP at the other and dozens of options in between. For some reason, it doesn't appear to be used, however. Prior to becoming CEO of Apple Computer, Tim Cook had a successful career at IBM, culminating as Director with supply chain responsibilities. He also had supply chain responsibilities at Compaq and as his first assignment at Apple. These companies thought supply chain expertise was important enough to lure a key employee from competitors. RV manufacturers don't seem to understand that.

The RV manufacturers are unwilling to assume the responsibility for coverage of their purchased components. If the refrigerator breaks, they say "Not our problem. Go talk to Dometic." If the water heater breaks, "Go talk to Suburban (or Atwood)." Frame: Lippert or Dexter. And if you have a problem that can't be isolated between two components from different manufacturers, good luck. This would be unheard of in the automotive world, the appliance world, the television/electronics world, but the RV folks seem to be "special."

I like to work on my own house/car/appliances/electronics, network, and trailers. I buy the cars and trailers used and do my own work (about everything but alignment and tires). And most of the folks who populate these forums do likewise.

The folks who write to BBB don't know which end of a screwdriver is the handle. Their expectations may be okay for Cadillac, but simply don't fit with the way RVs are delivered, as described in my first four paragraphs.

Larry
I understand where you are coming from but comparing RVs to cars isn't exactly a 1:1 comparison. Yes RVs and cars both have wheels, both travel down the road and are both built on assembly lines but really RVs are more like houses.

If you have a brand new house built and your AC or your fridge goes out, do you call the contractor that built your house or do you call the company that made your AC or fridge?
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Old 08-30-2018, 12:35 PM   #28
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We live and work in the "RV capital of the world" Elkhart County. I do not work in the industry but when I look out my office window I see (one of the) Thor plants to the right and Dexter axle to the left. I know LOT'S of RV workers. They are very well paid but they work HARD! We have owned one Class C and three TT's over the years. All locally made. The Class C we owned for 15 years and had zero problems (warranty or otherwise). TT#1 zero problems (warranty or otherwise), TT#2 one very minor warranty issue and now with TT#3 have had two very minor (could have fixed myself) warranty issues. Like others have already said, these are made to be light and they get shaken up every-time you take them out. Simply made, anyone really can work on them. Stay on top of maintenance and repairs and you'll be fine. Oh and your dealer selection is VERY important! For a newbe is as important as the unit itself.
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Old 08-30-2018, 12:43 PM   #29
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Who ya gonna call?

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I understand where you are coming from but comparing RVs to cars isn't exactly a 1:1 comparison. Yes RVs and cars both have wheels, both travel down the road and are both built on assembly lines but really RVs are more like houses.

If you have a brand new house built and your AC or your fridge goes out, do you call the contractor that built your house or do you call the company that made your AC or fridge?
Actually, it depends whether I bought the HVAC/refrigerator or the contractor did.

In a NEW house the contractor will have the paperwork on the HVAC and refrigerator. The buyer might not even have the appropriate paperwork.

It's not likely that I would have furnished the HVAC. It's possible that there was no refrigerator and I would have provided one. ONLY in that case would I go directly to the seller with a warranty claim.

I don't find your argument compelling.

Larry
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Old 08-30-2018, 01:45 PM   #30
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Actually, it depends whether I bought the HVAC/refrigerator or the contractor did.

In a NEW house the contractor will have the paperwork on the HVAC and refrigerator. The buyer might not even have the appropriate paperwork.

It's not likely that I would have furnished the HVAC. It's possible that there was no refrigerator and I would have provided one. ONLY in that case would I go directly to the seller with a warranty claim.

I don't find your argument compelling.

Larry
I've never actually purchased a new house but I did purchase a new RV. And I have all the manuals for all the different components that FR had no hand in engineering, designing or building like the TV, Microwave, toilet, stove, fridge, fireplace, etc...

The reason they tell you to talk directly to the different manufacturers is because many times they have their own warranty coverage. Often it's for longer than the 1-year you get included from FR.

Now if you want to talk about other things they should be responsible for like trim falling off or screws falling out/missing or railings missing, then that's absolutely their fault and they should be able to fix it.

But you still can't compare the RV industry to the car industry. They are just too different in so many ways.
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Old 08-30-2018, 02:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
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We live and work in the "RV capital of the world" Elkhart County. I do not work in the industry but when I look out my office window I see (one of the) Thor plants to the right and Dexter axle to the left. I know LOT'S of RV workers. They are very well paid but they work HARD! We have owned one Class C and three TT's over the years. All locally made. The Class C we owned for 15 years and had zero problems (warranty or otherwise). TT#1 zero problems (warranty or otherwise), TT#2 one very minor warranty issue and now with TT#3 have had two very minor (could have fixed myself) warranty issues. Like others have already said, these are made to be light and they get shaken up every-time you take them out. Simply made, anyone really can work on them. Stay on top of maintenance and repairs and you'll be fine. Oh and your dealer selection is VERY important! For a newbe is as important as the unit itself.

Since you live there, why are there so many issues with brand new ones? I did have good luck with the FR rep on things that should have been right from the start. My black tank sensors are still not right and the 1 year is up. The RV dealer claims they have " Factory trained techs", the foreman there said there are no such thing.
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Old 08-30-2018, 03:22 PM   #32
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I don't have a good response. We don't get preferential treatment just because we live here. We find a dealer and deal through them just like everyone else. It would be great to be able to buy "factory direct" but none do that. Even parts and appliances we must buy from the same sources as everyone else. Employee's do have some perks that I am not privy to. DW and I have toured several factories and all around have been impressed. YES, they do pump them out as fast as possible and YES that does result in some questionable quality, BUT, overall looking at how they are made and used, I can't complain. The RV industry is way different than anything I've ever run up against. Not bad, just different.
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Old 08-30-2018, 04:20 PM   #33
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Still not convinced

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I've never actually purchased a new house but I did purchase a new RV. And I have all the manuals for all the different components that FR had no hand in engineering, designing or building like the TV, Microwave, toilet, stove, fridge, fireplace, etc...

The reason they tell you to talk directly to the different manufacturers is because many times they have their own warranty coverage. Often it's for longer than the 1-year you get included from FR.

Now if you want to talk about other things they should be responsible for like trim falling off or screws falling out/missing or railings missing, then that's absolutely their fault and they should be able to fix it.

But you still can't compare the RV industry to the car industry. They are just too different in so many ways.
First, your argument is based on the premise that cars/trucks have only one warranty period. They don't. There's one on the body/fit/finish. Another on the powertrain. A third one on the emissions control system. Probably another one in California. And 50 states' worth of different Lemon Laws. If the car/truck manufacturers can handle this, RV manufacturers ought to be able to.

Since you mention manuals: It can cost a bit, but you can get complete factory service manuals ("shop books") for your car/truck. They even include (surprise!) schematic wiring diagrams and explanations of how each system works and how to diagnose problems. The manufacturers in the auto industry (and others) actually have tech writers to put the stuff together in one place. No need to chase down a manual from AW on the transmission or NipponDenso on the AC compressor. This is called "integration."

Speaking of integration, have you ever messed with a GOOD OBD II code reader? Not one that simply reads the "P" powertrain codes but one that also reads the "B" body codes and "C" chassis codes. A single tool tells you what's wrong with the air conditioner, the power door locks, and the suspension. I was able to locate the fault in a GMC "Level-Ride" air-leveling system with one test which took me right to the connector at the right rear "air-shock." Now that's integration!

If you're not convinced, let's agree to disagree. We've probably bored everyone else to tears.

Larry
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Old 08-30-2018, 06:32 PM   #34
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I don't have a good response. We don't get preferential treatment just because we live here. We find a dealer and deal through them just like everyone else. It would be great to be able to buy "factory direct" but none do that. Even parts and appliances we must buy from the same sources as everyone else. Employee's do have some perks that I am not privy to. DW and I have toured several factories and all around have been impressed. YES, they do pump them out as fast as possible and YES that does result in some questionable quality, BUT, overall looking at how they are made and used, I can't complain. The RV industry is way different than anything I've ever run up against. Not bad, just different.
ok good. one more question is what you think they make an hour there?
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Old 08-30-2018, 08:44 PM   #35
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If RV'ing was not a good idea or investment, why are millions of us doing it every day.

Consider airline flights, millions travel daily with no problems and nobody talks, but let something happen and the news media goes crazy.

We have camped many years with only a few very minor problems but no "ruined vacations"

Have fun and only worry about situations when they may happen.
Your friends on the forum will help you solve most problems and may even come to your aid if needed.

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Old 08-31-2018, 06:54 AM   #36
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Vast majority get paid piece rate with bonus. Yes, I know what you're thinking and I agree. The motivation here is how fast, not how good. I've questioned people "in the biz" and plant managers and the "in the biz" folks agree with me and the plant managers tell me they have quality control measures in place. My BS meter pegs on that statement. Don't get me wrong, under the circumstances, the products that come out are pretty darn good...under the circumstances. No robots, all hand made. I would love to get the quality of say, an Airstream, at the FR price point. Figure out how to do that and come to Elkhart. You'll make a fortune.
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Old 08-31-2018, 07:03 AM   #37
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Step 1:

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I would love to get the quality of say, an Airstream, at the FR price point. Figure out how to do that and come to Elkhart. You'll make a fortune.
Step 1: Fix the supply chain

Larry
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:36 PM   #38
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Not at fault for poor quality ? you must not own an rv . the quality sucks they can't even drill holes they just use hammers . the list would take pages to write all the poor quality that comes from the manufactures . these are designed to be towed are they not . does the RV industry think are roads are paved daily
I totally agree.
If you don't believe it, just look behind the walls,un der, your own RV. You will find random screws, sawdust, poor construction, etc.
That doesn't mean your RV will necessarily have major problems. It's sort of a crap shoot.
Someone here blamed suppliers. Who do they think chose to use those suppliers?
I always get a kick out of those apologists who compare an RV to a house, asking what would happen if you drove your house down a bumpy road at 60 mph? Guess what? Houses aren't designed for that purpose. RV's should be, but often don't measure up.
I imagine that well built RV's may be too expensive for the average buyer, which would certainly adversely affect the bottom line of RV manufacturers. If so, maybe there should be a disclaimer on every sale explaining that.
As for the argument that it's the dealers' fault more than the manufacturer, I say a pox on both of them.
BTW, through good luck, some occasional help from Coachmen customer service, and my own willingness to fix some things, I am happy with my Coachmen Prism.
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Old 09-01-2018, 03:54 PM   #39
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while I see the frustration sometimes we have, sometimes for the factory, and sometimes for the dealer, I can assure you that dealers themselves aren't in agreement that it's somehow 'their' job to make right what the factory sends them.

Dealers are in the business the sale, and to a certain extent, service, the RVs and motorhomes they purchase - but the original build quality is really out of their hands, and any 'blame' should go with it.
While it may seem that just because a dealer has a relationship to 'sell' a certain brand/make of RV, they don't assume that the unit is going to arrive to them in any less of perfect than you and I do, though I do understand that by the sheer number of units they see, they will certainly start to get an idea of which factories need to improve on what part/s of their processes.

I delivered many brand new coaches, Class A gas and diesels, from the factories to dealers, and believe me, the dealer is in no hurry to accept any coach that already has issues - but, the only real option they have is to accept it WITH the conditions noted, and for the factory to reimburse them for any repairs or needed work/adjustments. The dealer doesn't work for free, and the factory can't/doesn't expect them to.
The issue for many dealers, though, is that they make a note of these items, but unless an issue is a safety, cosmetic, or drivability concern, they probably will NOT take the time to do any corrections, until the unit is sold. Look at it this way - I've delivered to many dealers, most of which may receive multiple unit deliveries most every day - sometimes it's hard for them to even have the time to check them all in, with full walk-around, walk-thrus and notations, and certainly their service departments are not going to have the time to make all the changes and repairs, either. It's just not the 'true' reality of the business.

Dealers accept units they ordered, they have someone move and set the unit up on the lot, and they will try to have someone make a general walk-thru and general 'pretty up' for potential customers... but they really don't have time to give EVERY system a full and complete real-world test. Sometimes it happens over time as the coach is shown to customers, but there's a great chance that the coach you look at and purchase, may not yet have had anyone 'really' go thru every nut and bolt detail. Now, that's REALLY what you want to do the first several days, while on the dealer's lot, to really test everything out so that the dealer can then make it right and make you happy.

Quality control is always going to be the ultimate responsibility of the factory, but the dealers get an unfair beating sometimes when we think that THEY should make everything perfect, even when the factory itself did not. : )
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Old 09-03-2018, 06:44 PM   #40
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i have a work and play toy hauler its a 2017 30 wrs and very heavy, with 2 weekend trips this summer i have had no issues with it. they are coming out with new models this year and built much lighter. when i bought it i went threw it with a fine tooth comb and looked at qualty of how it was built. like i said this is a heavy unit but it is worth every penny i paid... the 2 things i can suggest is really looking at the unit, if the dealer has 2 of the same model look at both of them, then make sure you have a truck that will pull it and also figure in the weight of your gear you are going to put in it.
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