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Old 01-08-2013, 08:39 PM   #31
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Truth in advertising.

Either change the tanks to match the spec or change the spec to match the tanks.

One of my criteria was tank capacity. 20 would be a definite show stopper. As far as rounding errors go, 30 instead of 35 is a 16 percent difference. IF they have a 10 percent tolerance then it should be at least 31.5 gallons.

I spent too much time studying to be an engineer. I know plenty about tolerances. But 16 percent! Someone looked at the tank and made a guess. They did not measure it and come up with that much of a difference.

If you bought a car because it got 35 mpg, but it really will only get 30, would you say to yourself that this is just the way it is?

I doubt they will fix the discrepancy. But they should at least change the spec and brochures to be honest.
Agreed. The actual difference is 14% from 35 but whose quibbling, it is still should be right. Tanks usually have their capacity on them somewhere or at least a part number which you could look up on the manufacturers website. I would try to find that info before challenging FR.

Concerning car MPG, Hyundai tried that and got caught if you have been listening to the news recently. Everybody who bought the specific models will be getting a cash settlement.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:13 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopBeavers View Post
Truth in advertising.
Either change the tanks to match the spec or change the spec to match the tanks.

Someone looked at the tank and made a guess. They did not measure it and come up with that much of a difference.

If you bought a car because it got 35 mpg, but it really will only get 30, would you say to yourself that this is just the way it is?
I doubt they will fix the discrepancy. But they should at least change the spec and brochures to be honest.
I do love it when people assume that we're bumbling morons that just "eyeball" something and say "oh, that's close enough". Just for reference, by background is engineering, current occupation is sales. So I have a unique perspective.

1. We go off of the tank size that the supplier gives us. I will personally walk out to the line today and take a picture of the tank stamp.

2. As for your automotive reference...find me one vehicle today that gets the quoted mileage without some ridiculous driving methods. They always quote "best case scenario". The tank size is probably best case scenario. We test every tank...so maybe there is some fluid in there that does not get out? So when you're filling the tanks...your method comes up short. Is the water heater already full when you're filling the tank? does that get you another 6 gallons if you're not draining it?

3. We would be more than happy to change specs. We are not trying to mislead ANYONE or top some other MFG's tanks size. We buy a tank, the supplier tells us the tank size, we list it.

4. If a guy on the line, sets the vent line just a little too far...1/2", then it will cap the vent with the surface of the water (1/2" x the area of the tank). Nothing malicious...the other option is not getting it in far enough and when there is a leak, we're incompetent buffoons who can't even plumb a simple vent.

I will now step off my soap box. Point being...let's just not rant and assume how deceptive we're trying to be...I'm over here, answering questions as fast as I can. Just ask.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:15 AM   #33
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PS. I just got an email today from engineering dated 1/8 with some spec updates. One of the items, was a change to the Solera fresh water to 32 gallons. I'll go and find out if we changed the tank or the supplier misquoted the tank size.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:41 AM   #34
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And now, the rest of the story.

As you can see, the tank size clearly says "35 Gallons". That was taken, by me, on the line about 5 minutes ago. Along the way I stopped by the engineering office.

Apparently that particular tank has been in production for about 20 years. When it was originally designed, it was probably calculated by hand. Elkhart Plastics (the supplier) has been updating all their parts to a CAD system. When doing that, they determined that the volume is not what they have been stamping on the part for the last 20 years. They informed us...engineering informed me, I am now informing you.

Problem is, we probably have 15,000 brochures printed.

Hot off the press...they are now telling me 33 gallons (from Elkhart Plastics). After 10 years it is clear to me why we (and all other mfg's) say...

"specifications subject to change without notice. Specs based on most recent information available at printing". Not as a cop out to change things willy nilly....but to account for the inevitable.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:52 AM   #35
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And now, the rest of the story.

As you can see, the tank size clearly says "35 Gallons". That was taken, by me, on the line about 5 minutes ago. Along the way I stopped by the engineering office.

Apparently that particular tank has been in production for about 20 years. When it was originally designed, it was probably calculated by hand. Elkhart Plastics (the supplier) has been updating all their parts to a CAD system. When doing that, they determined that the volume is not what they have been stamping on the part for the last 20 years. They informed us...engineering informed me, I am now informing you.

Problem is, we probably have 15,000 brochures printed.

Hot off the press...they are now telling me 33 gallons (from Elkhart Plastics). After 10 years it is clear to me why we (and all other mfg's) say...

"specifications subject to change without notice. Specs based on most recent information available at printing". Not as a cop out to change things willy nilly....but to account for the inevitable.

Well said!!
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:54 AM   #36
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PS. I just got an email today from engineering dated 1/8 with some spec updates. One of the items, was a change to the Solera fresh water to 32 gallons. I'll go and find out if we changed the tank or the supplier misquoted the tank size.
That would explain the discrepancy I noticed.

My analogy of mpg was a poor one. I agree it is imprecise. A better one might be buying gas at a station. But that case is regulated by law and is tested frequently.

I may have come across as angry. I am not angry, just befuddled. When I am required to document how much RAM my program requires I run multiple measurements. I am pretty accurate, although I do round up so that my documented footprint is a bit bigger than necessary. Not everyone works as accurately as I do and there are others that are far more accurate than I. It is not possible to determine from a spec sheet or a marketing brochure how accurate the capacities are.

Case in point, but perhaps a bit exaggerated, if there is a 14 percent difference in the fresh tank capacity, then applying the same 14 percent to other capacities becomes interesting. 14 percent of the 11,030 pound weight limit is 1,544 pounds. THAT would be a big deal.

As a consumer, with no additional knowledge, all I can do is assume that the capacities as stated are accurate, within some undefined and unpublished tolerance.

How bad should I feel if I go over 11,300 pounds by a few hundred pounds?

Thanks for clarifying the 3 gallon undocumented reduction in some builds.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:00 PM   #37
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I was taught in engineering school to never use math to calculate the volume of an irregular shaped container. Fill it up with water and measure the water.

But that was 1971. Obviously not all engineers were taught that. Some, apparently, require the use of a CAD program to determine volume.

I will shut up about the tank capacity topic now. the explanation makes sense. The best that FR can do now is consider revising the brochure the next time it is printed.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:44 PM   #38
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Please don't take my rant critically. I have no problem questioning the tank size. With a background in engineering, I love to know how things work and I understand your desire to get what you were "promised". So when I get a question I will answer it to the best of my abilities...It's like a mystery. I'd just prefer people wait for an answer before making statements of assumption. I am more concerned about other people reading that information and forming a judgement.

"Ah, well I read one time that Forest River just guesses on their tank sizes, so I would recommend you buy XX brand". In the end, we really do want to see you happy. A happy customer is the best advertising. I'm hoping that even with the reduced tank size you can gain access to the water in the water heater that you originally thought was already included. With that, you should get 36 gallons, which is still in line with what was printed.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:35 PM   #39
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I'm very happy with the tank capacity in fact we do a mixture of hookup and dry camping and haven't put any water in it other than what the dealer put in, but I fill my refer with bottled water and wipe all dishes clean before washes and take short showers
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:41 PM   #40
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BC,

Very well explained. I have read and contributed to the Solera forum over the past several months, and have found that FR represents it's products with pride . I have also observed that FR tries to the best of their ability, to inform current owners by answering their questions and respond to their concerns .

I like you enthusiasm.

“Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.”. Winston Churchill

So, lets all take a deep breath here and listen to the ones in the know.
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