Low Point Drains / Cold Weather Camping

[DaveJordan]

I'm heading out next week for some cold weather camping. Though I expect daytime highs to be in the forties and fifties, I also expect overnight lows to be around 20.

I think the tank heating pads and a bit of antifreeze will keep the waste side thawed out. I think the mass of the fresh tank, and it's location under the bed, will keep it from freezing. And I think that keeping the interior heated will protect almost all of the pex plumbing.

But I'm quite concerned about the low point drains. They're just hanging out there, with neither heat nor complete insulation, and seem likely to freeze. Any thoughts on how to protect them???

Thanks!

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by DaveJordan

I'm heading out next week for some cold weather camping. Though I expect daytime highs to be in the forties and fifties, I also expect overnight lows to be around 20.

I think the tank heating pads and a bit of antifreeze will keep the waste side thawed out. I think the mass of the fresh tank, and it's location under the bed, will keep it from freezing. And I think that keeping the interior heated will protect almost all of the pex plumbing.

But I'm quite concerned about the low point drains. They're just hanging out there, with neither heat nor complete insulation, and seem likely to freeze. Any thoughts on how to protect them???

Thanks!

Yes go to lowes or HD and get some silver insulation it a roll, cut some off and wrap them. If you have an outdoor shower add two pieces to the inside behind the plastic door.....

[youroo]

Yes,go inside the unit and cut the Pex lines and Place shutoff valves,then OPEN pex lines to the outside! The LPDrains that are in the (Outside) WILL Freeze! Youroo!!

[Still Kickin]

Whoa, slow down. Don't be carving up your pex system. Just do a temporary insulation wrap like the previous poster suggested, like you stated, the daytime highs are sufficient to keep your system intacted as designed. Just sayin'

[youroo]

I didn't know you people had a Crystal ball on Temp! I know if done proper the LPDrains will (Not) freeze! Can you say that with (Unknown Future Low Temps)? Camp On! Youroo!!PS Have you ever heard (I didn't think it would get (THAT Cold)!

[Still Kickin]

Lets assume he is correct, daytime highs in the 40's and 50's. Save the carving for the Thanksgiving Turkey!

Oh, that crystal ball is baked into weather modeling data, sattelite., etc. that besides a miss now and then, hits the temp ranges with astonishing accuracy.

[DaveJordan]

Well, ok.

I went looking for somewhere to install shutoffs to the low point drains...I'm sure it's doable, but I couldn't find where the lines split off from the lines going to the kitchen sink - they appear to be buried below floor level...somewhere. I'll take another, better, look, but so far I don't think the shutoff approach is something I can do myself.

And then I got to thinking about the shower connection - it, too, needs a shutoff and, again, I couldn't find a place where I could do it.

So here's my latest thinking - Antifreeze! My current plan is to run antifreeze through the system until it comes out the two low point drains and the outside shower. Then I close them up...and don't use them until warm weather returns. With a little luck...with no water flowing to any of the exposed spots...the antifreeze will just hang around in place and prevent any freezing.

Any thoughts on this approach?

Dave

[Eric99]

I removed my low point drains due to freezing concern. I cut out the tee and replaced with an elbow. I have a 24R and gained access by removing the drawer under the sink and I removed the heat vent in the step area. It was still hard to reach but we made it.

I also put insulation behind the door to the outside shower.

In regards to putting antifreeze in the low point drain and shower I would think this would mix with water flowing by, especially the low point drain. I certainly would not drink or cook with the water from the kitchen sink if I did this.

I did find an open heating duct to the area around the fresh water tank and water filter so running the furnace should help keep this area warm.

I winterize by both blowing out the system and putting antifreeze in the pipes so I don't need the low point drains.

[hkreck]

One thing not all RV's are the same, I believe we're talking about a Solera here which has very tight areas for pumping and hard to get to. May not be able to place shut offs on some of the things other RV's are able to.

[Mikegjax]

My 2014 24R low point drains are accessible just behind the step well from under the side of the coach. Lay on my back and look up under the side. Easy access.

[DaveJordan]

Yes, the low point drains themselves are easily accessible...from the outside of the coach. The problem is installing shutoff valves inside the coach, where they won't freeze.

I've taken another look under the sink and it appears that the water lines are coming in from the rear of the coach to Ts under the sink. One side of the T goes up, to the sink, and the other side goes down, to the low point drain. Unfortunately, these Ts are all the way at the rear of the cabinet, behind, and under, a flexible heating duct, and are encased in hard sprayed foam.

Going in there to replace the T with perhaps a bypass valve is a bit scary, as the opening is small (just the under-sink drawer) and it's not exactly clear what's going on or how much of the existing wiring, foam, pex, and heating duct would have to be removed or rerouted just to get access to work.

One possibility, which might be easier to accomplish, would be to put a bypass valve on the horizontal run to the existing T. Cut the vertical run to the sink, cap the lower part of that run, and connect the upper part to the new bypass valve. This approach would at least allow you to choose the spot where most of the work would take place.

Still thinking about it!

Dave

[youroo]

Good deal Dave,I like a person who keeps on Task! Freeze repair (After the Fact) is NO fun job! Youroo!!

[Mikegjax]

Why not use 12 volt DC heat tape? Power source is close by.

[Still Kickin]

What freeze repair. The poster is trying to rectify what he believes is a problem with below freezing temperatures and highs in the 50ties. I still say save the carving for your turkey. For as many times that you will have a potential freeze problem, go with insulation or heat tape if thats doable.

Heck, run a seperate line from your tank heat pads to those drops, and then you can heat the pex when you switch on your artic pack.

[DaveJordan]

OK, a few late updates on my project to survive cold weather...

First, for the low point drains. I bought some 1/4 by 1/4 balsa wood. Cut two pieces about 8 inches long. Wrapped one end of each piece with a bit of medical tape, and stuck the other end up into the low point drain. My theory here was three-fold: First, that the wood and tape would displace a fair amount of water, so there'd be less to freeze and expand. Second, if the water did freeze, the balsa might collapse before the plastic valves broke. And third, that neither balsa nor a small amount of medical tape (intended for direct wound contact) would lead to my premature demise.

Second, for the outside shower. (Why do they call it a shower???) Anyway, I pumped RV antifreeze through the system and out the hose. Once the hose water was pink, I shut things down and flushed the antifreeze from the rest of the system. I also wrapped the pipe with about three wraps of reflective bubble wrap and then put two more (longer) pieces over the end...tucking them in outside the first piece that wrapped the pipe.

But, having done all that...I'm now thinking I won't be taking it to Colorado after all. See my thread on the Schwintek slide controller for my trials and tribulations with the controller...and various other pieces which had to be removed to get at the controller...

Dave

[hkreck]

I don't understand calling it a shower either, more of a wash out hose for the sewer compartment. I did have it freeze up the first year I had it forgot to winterize it. After replacing it with a new one which was about $75 I found that it is very easily repairable.

[Mikegjax]

I would think the balsa would absorb the water and freeze along with the rest.

[OldCoot]

Circulating air in the underbelly will keep them from freezing up in the underbelly itself. We've never had a problem even when the temps were below freezing for over 24 hrs.

Note: Just putting a light bulb in the basement won't do it, you have to have forced air circulation.

[DaveJordan]

Originally Posted by Mikegjax

I would think the balsa would absorb the water and freeze along with the rest.

Yeah, I'm not so sure that it won't. But it will still displace some of the water and the medical tape is a foam with some give to it.

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Circulating air in the underbelly will keep them from freezing up in the underbelly itself. We've never had a problem even when the temps were below freezing for over 24 hrs.

Note: Just putting a light bulb in the basement won't do it, you have to have forced air circulation.

Can you explain how you did this? Did you use a fan-driven ceramic heater? Or something else? Where did you put whatever it was you used?

Thanks!

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by DaveJordan

...Can you explain how you did this? Did you use a fan-driven ceramic heater? Or something else? Where did you put whatever it was you used? Thanks!

Instead of using our furnace which is ducted into the basement, we use an EdenPure electric heater in the trailer and I wired a separate switch on the furnace blower which allows me to run the blower without the burner. I open the duct in the basement and just turn on the furnace blower to circulate the heat in the underbelly/basement.