OP, remember, the art of negotiation is to know when you have the opposite party's back against the wall and he/they can go no further. The last two cars I bought, the dealer turned down my offer to them. These were pie in the sky offers that I sorta knew would be denied. But, both times I had counter offers ready, showing a willingness to be reasonable, based on as much information I could gather on the their costs and value of my trade. Both times my counter offer was accepted. On my Georgetown, the dealer and I were 18K apart. I came up 2k they came down 16K and we had a deal. Remember, the salesman if not a friend! That is why dealers, campground memberships, time shares etc. always come in at the time to go for the kill disguised as "the finance person". They don't care jack squat about you, your family or your dog. YOU have to have that same toughness. Yep its hard, especially if you are a generally easy going guy. Good Luck Again.
2011 Georgetown 330TS
RAV4 on MasterTow Dolly