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04-03-2018, 09:01 AM
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#41
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 63
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I just got rid of my 2015 Silverado dually diesel. While it will tow pretty much anything I threw at it, the cost when not towing didn't pay off in my opinion.
Putting additive in, paying 70+ cents per gallon, and getting roughly the same non towing gas mileage. Add in the extra maintenance costs, and god forbid when something breaks. Mechanics are expensive, diesel mechanics are absurd.
Now with all the new DEF crap, makes them even more prone to garbage clogging up. You can delete that stuff (depending where you live) but for an additional 3-5k.
I never got more than 15mpg unloaded in my dually, and I wasn't chipped or big muffler guy either. Drove it like a grocery getter.
For what you're hauling, the gasser would be more than enough.
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04-03-2018, 09:05 AM
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#42
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Centex
Posts: 182
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"You'll get pretty decent mileage unloaded and power that outperforms the old 7.3L PSD when loaded"
Assume you're talking about the OBS 7.3. My 01 7.3 is tuned and putting down 350hp/700tq and getting 13mpg towing 8500lb.
No eco boost is close.
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04-03-2018, 09:15 AM
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#43
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMWildcat
There is nothing keeping folks from buying pre DEF diesels. In fact, these older trucks are in high demand and going for a premium. Also, in areas where there is no inspection, delete of newer diesels is a viable option. Lots of options for open minded folks.
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"For open minded folks.", LOL. I see you've elevated yourself again! I searched for around 2 years for a nice clean crew cab 2000-2003 7.3L PSD. At my standards of being taken care of they are as "rare as hen's teeth." The vast majority of them have been worked hard, have significant body damage, have been smoked in or had pets all in them or have been modded and abused. If you want a really nice clean older pre-emissions diesel you need a lot of time to look and deep pockets- you're not going to get financing for a 15-20 year old truck so you'll need a good $15-$20K cash on hand(pretty big thing keeping some of us from buying pre DEF diesels, btw). And you'll STILL have a 10+ year old truck. The last 7.3 I owned, a 1997 model, was bought new by my mother. I was the second owner. My FIL now owns it. Would still have it but it was extended cab- wont' work for 4 kids, 2 of which are in car seats. While the engine itself is still going strong (~300K miles), it has other repair issues that creep up. Every component on a vehicle will fail at some point. As it ages it becomes more and more probably that something will give. Why tout the reliability of the engine while ignoring the hundreds of other components that can very easily ruin a camping trip?
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04-03-2018, 09:21 AM
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#44
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RB19RR
Here’s the situation. I have a 2006 Dodge 2500 4x4, with 5.9 diesel, 193,000 miles. Love the truck, but just not comfortable trusting it on long tours. I recently retired in Feb and just completed a two month cross country trip of 9000 miles towing my 20’ Grey Wolf 19rr toy hauler ( 6000 pounds ully loaded)
I simply want a new truck...I drove a 2018 Dodge diesel and was greatly impressed on how civilized diesel trucks have become in 12 years.
But I have lots of concerns with added complexity of particulate filters, extra fluids, computers, etc. And price of a diesel option.
I keep reading how the modern gas engines are competitive with past diesels.
I’m considering a Dodge 2500 with 6.4L gas, 4x4.....
I have zero intention of ever going to a larger trailer.
My question, has anyone gone from diesel to gas with my size trailer and where you satisfied or was it a big, costly, mistake.
Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks!
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I found myself in the situation of not having enough truck twice in my life, so this third time I vowed not to make that mistake again. That left gas by the wayside. My research pointed me to my current decission. I was reading this truck should give 750,000 miles if I maintain properly and, I shouldn't even consider one with less than 100,000 miles, letting someone else work thru the bugs.
As for diesel now days, my gurus say drive it like a normal car. When I was waiting for a tow in the middle of the Mojave because I broke an axle on my camper, that CHiPs said run that diesel and keep the lights on so we don't get hit out here in the dark. Over two hours ideling. Could a gas engine do that?It was fine. My repair list and car fax is almost non existant and for that I am grateful.
My only other comment would be my theory of why take a chance on spending lots on lots newer, when we can be taken to cleaners with a new item as well as with a used one, its just that the used one cost less to begin with. Happy Hunting
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04-03-2018, 09:41 AM
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#45
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Saint Louis
Posts: 1,458
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i have a 15 6.4 2500. it pulls like no tomorrow.
when we upgraded our truck to the 2500, we had a 21 ft microlight that weighed between 5-5500 lbs. We took it to Yellowstone and RMNP behind the 2500. We had zero issues and I learned the definition of not knowing it was back there.
Now we have a 9-9500 lbs fifth wheel. It pulls it fairly well still. If I was hauling much more, i would probably consider a diesel, but right now, what I have does the job and does the job well.
__________________
2015 Ram 2500 4x4 6.4l with 2015 Sandpiper 25RLS
Wife, myself and 2 furry kids
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04-03-2018, 09:46 AM
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#46
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 496
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I would keep the OPs older truck, but thats just me.
My '01 7.3l has @95K on it. I might have to sell it though and buy a new $60K truck as it got a door ding on it the other day that is really bothering me. It will probably just fall apart now.
__________________
2001 Ford F250 7.3l converted to F350 specs
2014 Flagstaff 8528RKWS
2006 model year Border Collie
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04-03-2018, 09:54 AM
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#47
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb Phelps
I found myself in the situation of not having enough truck twice in my life, so this third time I vowed not to make that mistake again. That left gas by the wayside. My research pointed me to my current decission. I was reading this truck should give 750,000 miles if I maintain properly and, I shouldn't even consider one with less than 100,000 miles, letting someone else work thru the bugs.
As for diesel now days, my gurus say drive it like a normal car. When I was waiting for a tow in the middle of the Mojave because I broke an axle on my camper, that CHiPs said run that diesel and keep the lights on so we don't get hit out here in the dark. Over two hours ideling. Could a gas engine do that?It was fine. My repair list and car fax is almost non existant and for that I am grateful.
My only other comment would be my theory of why take a chance on spending lots on lots newer, when we can be taken to cleaners with a new item as well as with a used one, its just that the used one cost less to begin with. Happy Hunting
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You can put 2 million miles on it if "maintain properly" means to replace components as they fail. If you are planning on going to 750K with only routine maintenance, you will almost certainly be sadly disappointed. You need to be careful about reading accounts of high mileage newer vehicles and expecting that same type of service. They tend to be all highway miles and travel many miles at a time- often people that haul professionally. Exponentially fewer starts/stops and "cold miles" than a typical user would experience in a given number of miles. You don't have SCR(huge bonus since that adds a ton of complex and expensive parts- though your non SCR 6.7 will be less fuel efficient), but you do have a DPF on your rig. Manufacturers recommend cleaning or replacing at 80-120K miles. Here's some reading on the subject:
DPF: The Time Bomb Under Your Diesel - Diesel Power Magazine
And as far as the 2 hours idling.....I expect there are hundreds of thousands of gas engines doing that every day in the commercial industries. As noted above, many commercial fleets are going gas because of the issues with new diesels.
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04-03-2018, 10:16 AM
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#48
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Monticello, IL
Posts: 1,696
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Well, we can argue the pros, cons, and experiences until the cows come home and nothing will change. People will still stand by and defend their decisions.
So here's how I see it based on my experience. The fuel economy increase with the diesel is a nice bonus, but the towing experience with the diesel is hands-down the biggest reason I won't tow with another gas truck. The gas trucks are perfectly capable, but listening to them scream going up hills is not relaxing. Lack of an exhaust brake going downhill is not relaxing.
So, as long as I can afford to do it I will be towing with a diesel, and if I can't afford to tow with a diesel then I probably can't afford to go camping.
I should also say that this is for long and/or frequent towing. If it were just to tow locally then go with the gasser, but the nerves at the end of a day towing with a diesel are much less frazzled than making the same trip with a gasser. Even DW, who was always in the passenger seat, could feel how much more comfortable and relaxed it was towing with the diesel.
Good luck with whatever you choose, just remember that it's much more expensive to change your mind if you end up buying a truck you don't like than it is to go with what you really want the first time.
__________________
2017 GMC Canyon - CCLB, 4x4, 2.8L Duramax, ARE Z-series shell
2013 Shamrock 21SS
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04-03-2018, 10:30 AM
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#49
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Georgia Rally Coordinator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: GA
Posts: 24,457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDrax
Well, we can argue the pros, cons, and experiences until the cows come home and nothing will change. People will still stand by and defend their decisions.
So here's how I see it based on my experience. The fuel economy increase with the diesel is a nice bonus, but the towing experience with the diesel is hands-down the biggest reason I won't tow with another gas truck. The gas trucks are perfectly capable, but listening to them scream going up hills is not relaxing. Lack of an exhaust brake going downhill is not relaxing.
So, as long as I can afford to do it I will be towing with a diesel, and if I can't afford to tow with a diesel then I probably can't afford to go camping.
I should also say that this is for long and/or frequent towing. If it were just to tow locally then go with the gasser, but the nerves at the end of a day towing with a diesel are much less frazzled than making the same trip with a gasser. Even DW, who was always in the passenger seat, could feel how much more comfortable and relaxed it was towing with the diesel.
Good luck with whatever you choose, just remember that it's much more expensive to change your mind if you end up buying a truck you don't like than it is to go with what you really want the first time.
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I feel very relax towing with my gasser should not be that big a deal just depends what you tow and seeing you have the small GM diesel and not towing a bigger unit with a bigger truck. As far as the so called screaming of gas just depends how big a hill you ascend and at what speed. Gas engines are made to do this and is not any more ware on them than a diesel.
Here again it all depends on OP driving habits and amount of towing and where. Later RJD
__________________
2020 Shasta Phoenix SPF 27RKSS (sold)
2018 Dodge Ram 2500 6.4 3:73 gearing. Traded 2015 Chevy 2500 6.0, 4:10
Traded 2015 30WRLIKS V-Lite
Days camped 2019 62
Days camped 2020 49 days camped 2021-74 2022-40 days 2023 5 days
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04-03-2018, 11:00 AM
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#50
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Alberta - East of the Rockies, West of the Rest
Posts: 1,785
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I've noticed a few comments saying whole fleets being converted from diesel to gas for x no. of reasons.
The way I see it is that companies put a cap on vehicle purchases which does not always translate into good economics.
A real problem I see every day is guys idling their trucks waiting in line at the drive thru or during coffee/lunch break three times a day every day. This is an irresponsible habit that will cause very expensive damage if not to the engine itself but it will to the exhaust system.
Also, diesels are not the preferable option for short trips where the engine has no time to come to a proper operating temperature.
__________________
2018 RAM 5500 Laramie CC
Sold: Riverstone Legacy 38RE, 960 Watt Solar, 6x6 Volt AGM Battery Bank, Freedom SW 3012 Inv/Charger
Ordered: 2021....
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04-03-2018, 11:08 AM
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#51
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDrax
Well, we can argue the pros, cons, and experiences until the cows come home and nothing will change. People will still stand by and defend their decisions.
So here's how I see it based on my experience. The fuel economy increase with the diesel is a nice bonus, but the towing experience with the diesel is hands-down the biggest reason I won't tow with another gas truck. The gas trucks are perfectly capable, but listening to them scream going up hills is not relaxing. Lack of an exhaust brake going downhill is not relaxing.
So, as long as I can afford to do it I will be towing with a diesel, and if I can't afford to tow with a diesel then I probably can't afford to go camping.
I should also say that this is for long and/or frequent towing. If it were just to tow locally then go with the gasser, but the nerves at the end of a day towing with a diesel are much less frazzled than making the same trip with a gasser. Even DW, who was always in the passenger seat, could feel how much more comfortable and relaxed it was towing with the diesel.
Good luck with whatever you choose, just remember that it's much more expensive to change your mind if you end up buying a truck you don't like than it is to go with what you really want the first time.
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Towing with a new gen diesel is definitely nice. They obviously have gobs of power. But the cost/benefit ratio to me just didn't work out. Higher up front costs and the potential for very expensive repairs when warranty was out pushed me out of the diesel market. I could afford the truck and could afford to camp, but if the SCR system crapped out at 51K like it did under warranty at ~18K resulting in over $3400 in repairs....well, let's just say that our camping budget for the next year would have just gone out the window. I find that the F150 with the 3.5L Ecoboost puts me right where I feel comfortable. Slightly more complex than a typical "gasser" due to turbos, but much less complex than current diesels with all of their emissions equipment. Much better performance than a naturally aspirated gas but obviously not as powerful as the diesel. Was a great "middle ground" for me. I don't tow over 10K, either, though. So, there are definitely reasons for people to own different types of TVs- I just like for all the facts to be out on the table. No reason to ignore the complexity and potential future costs with today's diesels. Choosing to own one anyway isn't the same as ignoring those facts.
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04-03-2018, 11:10 AM
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#52
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustman_stx
You can put 2 million miles on it if "maintain properly" means to replace components as they fail.
I thought maintain properly meant preventative maintenance as when things break thats called fixing after the fact
If you are planning on going to 750K with only routine maintenance, you will almost certainly be sadly disappointed.
Lifes adventures are not disappointments they are learning experiences
You need to be careful about reading accounts of high mileage newer vehicles and expecting that same type of service
I was taught to not believe anything i hear and only half of what i see. I trust i have sufficient knowledge to read accounts and comprehend b.s.
. They tend to be all highway miles and travel many miles at a time- often people that haul professionally.
I am pretty sure i fall under highway miles
Exponentially fewer starts/stops and "cold miles" than a typical user would experience in a given number of miles. You don't have SCR(huge bonus since that adds a ton of complex and expensive parts- though your non SCR 6.7 will be less fuel efficient), but you do have a DPF on your rig. Manufacturers recommend cleaning or replacing at 80-120K miles. Here's some reading on the subjec
Thank you for this link as that is a topic i need to get on my list of things to learn more about at least til i feel comfortable with the topic
DPF: The Time Bomb Under Your Diesel - Diesel Power Magazine
And as far as the 2 hours idling.....I expect there are hundreds of thousands of gas engines doing that every day in the commercial industries. As noted above, many commercial fleets are going gas because of the issues with new diesels.
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I would have guessed a gas engine would be more susceptible to over heating in a,similar situation. Like in traffic jams one sees more gas engines pulled to the side than diesel
And here is a chuckle for us as i was typing that last word i thought ... "wasn't long ago i didn't even know how to spell diesel"
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04-03-2018, 11:21 AM
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#53
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Monticello, IL
Posts: 1,696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustman_stx
Towing with a new gen diesel is definitely nice. They obviously have gobs of power. But the cost/benefit ratio to me just didn't work out. Higher up front costs and the potential for very expensive repairs when warranty was out pushed me out of the diesel market. I could afford the truck and could afford to camp, but if the SCR system crapped out at 51K like it did under warranty at ~18K resulting in over $3400 in repairs....well, let's just say that our camping budget for the next year would have just gone out the window. I find that the F150 with the 3.5L Ecoboost puts me right where I feel comfortable. Slightly more complex than a typical "gasser" due to turbos, but much less complex than current diesels with all of their emissions equipment. Much better performance than a naturally aspirated gas but obviously not as powerful as the diesel. Was a great "middle ground" for me. I don't tow over 10K, either, though. So, there are definitely reasons for people to own different types of TVs- I just like for all the facts to be out on the table. No reason to ignore the complexity and potential future costs with today's diesels. Choosing to own one anyway isn't the same as ignoring those facts.
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Glad you're happy with your EB, I can find numerous people who aren't and have had multiple turbo failures (and at least one of those failures took out the main bearings due to metal contamination in the oil) and other issues.
I just like for all the facts to be out on the table.
It's easy to search and find references to back up whatever position you have. I'm on my second modern diesel, I haven't had a single emissions problem with either of them. The vast majority of people don't. ANY vehicle can have problems, if we avoided buying something because someone had a problem then we'd never buy anything.
The EBs are pretty decent engines for sure, but when it comes to towing and reliability I'll put my money on a diesel every time, even the new ones. The reliability of the DPF and SCR systems has come a long way since they were first put on the road ~7 years ago.
__________________
2017 GMC Canyon - CCLB, 4x4, 2.8L Duramax, ARE Z-series shell
2013 Shamrock 21SS
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04-03-2018, 11:31 AM
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#54
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDrax
Glad you're happy with your EB, I can find numerous people who aren't and have had multiple turbo failures (and at least one of those failures took out the main bearings due to metal contamination in the oil) and other issues.
I just like for all the facts to be out on the table.
It's easy to search and find references to back up whatever position you have. I'm on my second modern diesel, I haven't had a single emissions problem with either of them. The vast majority of people don't. ANY vehicle can have problems, if we avoided buying something because someone had a problem then we'd never buy anything.
The EBs are pretty decent engines for sure, but when it comes to towing and reliability I'll put my money on a diesel every time, even the new ones. The reliability of the DPF and SCR systems has come a long way since they were first put on the road ~7 years ago.
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So you can use Google???? Never said the EB was perfect. Even specifically stated that they are more complex with the turbos. Between my 2 Ecoboost( trucks- ~35K miles and no issues. Between the 2 6.7 PSD trucks(2011 and 2015), ~38K miles, entire DEF system replaced at $3400. I can find many instances of emissions failures, turbo failures, and HPFP failures on modern diesels that cost more than an entire Ecoboost engine.
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04-03-2018, 11:32 AM
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#55
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,754
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I never mentioned my wife and my daughter both drive DEF Diesels, both are over 150k so far. Having worked on both I can tell you there are plenty of electronic problems with gas engines also. I subscribe to IATN and read the problems daily.
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04-03-2018, 11:32 AM
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#56
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Denver To Yuma In 90 Days
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Yuma, Arizona
Posts: 3,882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceinspp
I feel very relax towing with my gasser should not be that big a deal just depends what you tow and seeing you have the small GM diesel and not towing a bigger unit with a bigger truck. As far as the so called screaming of gas just depends how big a hill you ascend and at what speed. Gas engines are made to do this and is not any more ware on them than a diesel.
Here again it all depends on OP driving habits and amount of towing and where.
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Sounds like you and I have the same truck powerwise...
Mine is a 2015 Chevy 2500HD with 6.0L gasser and 4.10 rear end double cab.
Pulls (and stops) my 9900 pound 5'ver around the Rocky Mountains and the western US of A very well.
Will be four years old at the end of this month and has 65,500 miles on it as of yesterday.
Haven't spent a dime on it, except for typical maintenance and car washes.
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04-03-2018, 11:39 AM
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#57
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Monticello, IL
Posts: 1,696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustman_stx
So you can use Google???? Never said the EB was perfect. Even specifically stated that they are more complex with the turbos. Between my 2 Ecoboost( trucks- ~35K miles and no issues. Between the 2 6.7 PSD trucks(2011 and 2015), ~38K miles, entire DEF system replaced at $3400. I can find many instances of emissions failures, turbo failures, and HPFP failures on modern diesels that cost more than an entire Ecoboost engine.
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It seems you missed my point, but that's OK. Enjoy your EB.
__________________
2017 GMC Canyon - CCLB, 4x4, 2.8L Duramax, ARE Z-series shell
2013 Shamrock 21SS
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04-03-2018, 12:11 PM
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#58
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDrax
It seems you missed my point, but that's OK. Enjoy your EB.
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Your point is that there are issues with all of them. And we can justify our positions by searching for specific examples. Can you explain what has changed on the DPF and SCR systems since 2011/12? I'm not aware that anything has changed on the Ford- maybe something has on the Ram and GM products. And you speak to me as though I have no experience with modern diesels. Did you actually read my earlier posts?
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04-03-2018, 12:11 PM
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#59
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,754
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Someone mentioned having many other things that could spoil a camping trip on an older truck. I have seen many things that factories produced new that fail early on and could spoil a camping trip too. What spoils my trip is having to pay the state over $1000.00 annually, and $5000.00 plus in sales tax because I worked hard enough to buy a new truck, and lose maybe $2000.00 annually or more for depreciation, all of which get you nothing. That money could do a lot of repair work even if you hired it done. People who had an entire DEF sytsem replaced probably were taken by the repair shop, so many mechanics today are just parts changers.
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04-03-2018, 12:17 PM
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#60
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aircommuter
I never mentioned my wife and my daughter both drive DEF Diesels, both are over 150k so far. Having worked on both I can tell you there are plenty of electronic problems with gas engines also. I subscribe to IATN and read the problems daily.
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This is true. But when you pile SCR systems and all of the sensors and circuitry involved there AND a DPF with all of it's sensors on top of the type of electronics/sensors/circuits a gas engine would have, obviously you've got more potential for issues. Even the old tried and true 7.3L PSD and 5.9L Cummins encountered problems. I'm simply stating the obvious- the complex emissions control systems on modern diesels detract from their reliability and add to their TCO.
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