Gas verses E85 in trucks

[Jmkjr72]

Originally Posted by Tabasco

As my dealer told me, if I use E85 I will need to change my oil every 3,000 miles vs. 5,000 and if towing it will need to be changed at 2,000...with synthetic oil and 8 quarts at a minimum of $55 with coupon...well do the math, not anywhere near worth it...I only use regular gas!

Do yo bellive everything a dealer says
Did he show you any manufactures document that shows that

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by Tabasco

As my dealer told me, if I use E85 I will need to change my oil every 3,000 miles vs. 5,000 and if towing it will need to be changed at 2,000...with synthetic oil and 8 quarts at a minimum of $55 with coupon...well do the math, not anywhere near worth it...I only use regular gas!

As is usually the case, your dealer was full of what comes out the south end of a northbound buffalo. Your ECM will adjust for fuel and change your oil change recommendation accordingly. I change the oil in my 2500 once a year, even on E85. That is because I typically don’t put more than 6000-7000 miles on it in a year. Oil samples on it look good.

[JohnD10]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

...your dealer was full of what comes out the south end of a northbound buffalo.

Never heard that one before...

[cmysstailights]

Originally Posted by Tabasco

As my dealer told me, if I use E85 I will need to change my oil every 3,000 miles vs. 5,000 and if towing it will need to be changed at 2,000...with synthetic oil and 8 quarts at a minimum of $55 with coupon...well do the math, not anywhere near worth it...I only use regular gas!

Dont know what truck u have, my 15 2500 is only 6 quarts, i always changed my oil in all my cars with synthetic blend and at 3k mile intervals. I dont listen to dealers, they look to sell you anything.

[cmysstailights]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

It is all about cost per mile. So one has to look at availability and pump cost spread between the fuels and the mpg you get from each.

On my 2015 Chevy 2500, I get about 13-14 average mpg on regular. On E85, about 10-11 mpg. Regular is going for about $2.52 in my area. So cost per mile using it is around 18 cents a mile. E85 is hitting around $1.70 in my area. Using it costs me about 15.5 cents a mile, so my 2500 has been on an E85 diet since last fall when the prices between fuels got wider.

Each area of the country, the pricing may or may not make it worthwhile. I do know that the 6.0L L96 motor in that 2500 runs truly great on E85. Hope price spreads stay in place.

In ny loved it when 87 was 2.50 and e85 was 1.59. Now i break even.

[trees]

I've always come out ahead with mixing E85 with regular unleaded. The Ford focus doesn't lose any mileage, but the max blend since not a flex vehicle was held at E30. My truck about E50 and seems to keep mileage up. It does look like E15 is the fuel of choice and if you splash blend E30.

Also, the ethanol fuel should work great at high altitudes. The oxygen content of ethanol would punch up horsepower.

[JohnD10]

Originally Posted by trees

Also, the ethanol fuel should work great at high altitudes. The oxygen content of ethanol would punch up horsepower.

Didn't help mine...made it a dog!

[Scrapper]

I was told to run a tank full of E85 every 4-5 fill-up by my Chevy dealer. He told me it cleans the fuel system and it does give you more power. As far as mileage I couldn't tell that much of a difference when I was working and filling up my tank every week.

As for subsidies, the oil industries have gotten and still get subsidies. In fact, all the energy industries get subsidies from the taxpayer, without the taxpayer having any control over how much or to who it is given.

IE Questions: How Does The Government Subsidize Oil And Gas? | Inside Energy

https://cen.acs.org/articles/89/i51/...Subsidies.html

"Several measures to aid oil companies passed in the early 1900s remain of key importance to the industry. These include one provision passed in 1916 to speed up depreciation of drilling costs. A second one, the oil depletion allowance, which became law in 1926, gives oil companies a tax break for depleting an oil reservoir. President Obama has sought to end these breaks but has been overwhelmed by the opposition from industry and its congressional allies."

"Nuclear power plants also benefit strongly from subsidies, particularly from the Price-Anderson Act of 1957, which requires the federal government to indemnify utilities in case of a nuclear disaster. The study quotes utility officials speaking in the 1950s who warned that without federal accident indemnification the industry could not exist."

"The study does not include the nearly $40 billion in energy stimulus spending under the American Recovery & Reinvestment Act of 2009. The omission weakens its conclusions, but the money was not allocated when the report was being prepared. Even now, only about half of the $36 billion in stimulus money from the Department of Energy’s allocation has been spent. These funds are spread throughout old and new energy forms—renewables, coal cleanup technologies, vehicles, and nuclear projects. The largest loan guarantee in DOE’s controversial program would go to nuclear energy development, some $8 billion to back up a new nuclear power plant planned to be built in Georgia."

"The biggest supportfor renewables comes from tax credits. Currently, investors can recover 30% of the cost of a wind or solar installation. But Congress has let these credits expire multiple times since their creation in the early 1990s, the study notes. It warns that without consistent, stable support during the initial 15-year period, a new technology will find success difficult."

[rlocicero]

Originally Posted by Chief T

In the search box enter E85 and there will be a bunch of existing threads on the topic.

If memory serves me right, E85 is cheaper, but MPG is less.

With E85, mileage drops like a rock.

[navy1064]

Originally Posted by Grapelape

I bought a used F150 FX4 to pull our camper and it has the flex fuel option. Which fuel do you recommend to use on a regular basis and when pulling a camper?

Chris,
E-85 does not have the same energy content as "normal unleaded" has, therefore the MPG is much lower. Due to this fact, the offset in price (up front) doesn't hold up in the end. It's actually a nuisance because you'll find yourself stopping for fuel more often.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by trees

Also, the ethanol fuel should work great at high altitudes. The oxygen content of ethanol would punch up horsepower.

That's a false assumption.

Ethanol contains ~35% oxygen, gasoline around 3.7%.

Also consider that E85 has a different stoichiometric ratio than gasoline. Gasoline is 14.6:1 air:fuel and E85 is 9:1. Gasoline runs much leaner than E85.

However...that is all moot.

The number of BTUs in E85 compared to gasoline is much less and it's the BTUs (potential energy), not the oxygen content, that determines how much energy the fuel provides and in return how much power the engine makes.

A while back there was testing done with a flex-fuel Chevy Tahoe, they tested 0-60, 1/4 mile, and 50-70mph passing times. Running on E85 was slower in all cases.

Here's something else folks may not know. Many people probably assume that E85 means that it's 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, but by definition E85 is any ethanol blend that is between 51% and 83% ethanol. It's not even up to 85% ethanol!

It does have a higher octane rating as was mentioned before, so if the computer is able to sense and compensate for this and advance the timing more than standard gasoline then that will help reduce the power loss caused by the lower BTUs and as some people found does help throttle response (makes the engine seem peppier/sportier).

[MtBiker]

Originally Posted by Mainframe

Well, that actually isn’t the case.

2500 Mile Oil Changes Because You're Running E-85? P-shaw | Tundra Headquarters Blog

The Tundra article was written in 2009 so motors may handle things a bit different now.

[PenJoe]

We have a 2013 Silverado that uses Flexfuel. The information we had before trying it indicated it did not have the same fuel economy. And that has proven itself out. Calculating the difference in mileage vs the cost, it is about a wash. Using the truck's computer, (running empty)we got around 15 MPG on E-85 and 18-21 MPG running E-15. Never got down to specific calculations. We may use E-85 a couple times a year, but rarely would it be any financial advantage. One of my biggest concerns is, being 85% alcohol, that it would cause condensation in the tank.

About a week ago, we saw E-85 in Plainview, MN at $1.6? putting it about 90 cents less that regular. Tempted, but we went with regular.

As for towing, we pulled a 19" Crestliner boat using E-85 and there was no appreciable difference in towing performance. For long hauls with a loaded cargo trailer, we stay with regular (E-15).

It won't hurt your truck, so you can experiment for yourself. I have even tried 50-50. Trust this is the information you are looking for.

[cmysstailights]

Originally Posted by rlocicero

With E85, mileage drops like a rock.

Not so, i saw minimum difference

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

That's a false assumption.

Ethanol contains ~35% oxygen, gasoline around 3.7%.

Also consider that E85 has a different stoichiometric ratio than gasoline. Gasoline is 14.6:1 air:fuel and E85 is 9:1. Gasoline runs much leaner than E85.

However...that is all moot.

The number of BTUs in E85 compared to gasoline is much less and it's the BTUs (potential energy), not the oxygen content, that determines how much energy the fuel provides and in return how much power the engine makes.

A while back there was testing done with a flex-fuel Chevy Tahoe, they tested 0-60, 1/4 mile, and 50-70mph passing times. Running on E85 was slower in all cases.

Here's something else folks may not know. Many people probably assume that E85 means that it's 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, but by definition E85 is any ethanol blend that is between 51% and 83% ethanol. It's not even up to 85% ethanol!

It does have a higher octane rating as was mentioned before, so if the computer is able to sense and compensate for this and advance the timing more than standard gasoline then that will help reduce the power loss caused by the lower BTUs and as some people found does help throttle response (makes the engine seem peppier/sportier).

It does depend on the season regarding the ethanol percentage of E85. In my neck of the woods, the state requirement is that E85 have no less than 70%, which is most likely the actual level in the winter. But it does have over 80% in warmer months. Doesn't make much sense to sell E85 at a lower percentage. We have blender pumps that dispense E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85. If the E85 had only 51% ethanol, it is going for a price much lower than E50 so it wouldn't make much business sense to sell two products with virtually the same percentage at different prices.

Some engines do compensate. The 5.3L GM motor is one of them. power charts put out by GM show that motor gains about 15 hp and 5 lb torque on E85. Not a lot, but it is there.

Regarding BTU content, that is generally true in terms of naturally aspirated motors that run primarily on gasoline but also have a ethanol capability, but when an engine is designed around E85 exclusively, then the game rules change.

For instance, Cummins has a 2.8L turbo inline 4 that is built for E85 exclusively. It performs at the level of the 5.7L Hemi motor and gets significantly better fuel economy. That one is going to be targeted at some fleet van vehicles. Some other motor designs have shown that E85 can perform at the level of diesel in terms of power per liter of motor and fuel economy of diesel. It is all in how the motor is designed to take advantage of the fuel.

it is not a cure all for anything. But it is a viable alternative depending on location in the country and market pricing. My area, we are swimming in the stuff. I have 46 ethanol plants that surround my area. That is just one state, Iowa. For 2017, Iowa produced 4.125 billion gallons of ethanol.

Some have decried using grain for ethanol production. For every bushel of corn that goes into an ethanol plant, 17-18 lbs of high protein, highly digestible feed supplement comes out the other end. And on top of that, some high quality polymers and other products. Most folks don't realize that corn ethanol production is required to get products that are needed to enhance the ceramic insulators of spark plugs. And in all of this, ethanol production uses almost the same amount of water as it takes for petroleum fuel production.

Ethanol production is also required for products used to produce biodiesel that is made from other crops.

And of the entire U.S. corn production, only 20% is used for human food products, the other 80%, only 40% of that is used for ethanol production, and there is still quality food products made from that. Ethanol production is not a zero sum gain. A bushel of corn that goes into an ethanol plant is not lost on the food supply.

[trees]

A lot of misinformation on ethanol. Petrol companies have spent a bundle on negative propaganda within internet. One must realize that pollution control equipment on modern fuel injection system with oxygen sensor will adjust fuel ratio to stoichiometric. So, ethanol contains liquid oxygen the gas mileage will go down. For many reasons ethanol is close to a perfect fuel. Problem is as was already mentioned, our vehicles are engineered to gasoline standards. Ethanol is handicapped by inferior gasoline limitations. Nontheless, the E10=E30 blends will improve plain gasoline and maximize consumer benefit. The E30 blend should be the new super premium for next gen engines. Our drag and race engine technology has proven the value of high power ethanol blends. Yes, the fuel is more powerful for torque than diesel. Cummings E85 engine produced 2x the power per cubic inch as compared to their diesel engine. The condensation is a non issue, just a miss truth of a physical attribute. Same for corrosion and oil change. Gasoline is far more susceptible to corrosion an moisture. Remember the conked out boats before E10? The cans of "Heet" we had to pour down gas tank to keep our cars running in winter. Draining water out of our boat tanks with plain gas.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

It does depend on the season regarding the ethanol percentage of E85. In my neck of the woods, the state requirement is that E85 have no less than 70%, which is most likely the actual level in the winter. But it does have over 80% in warmer months. Doesn't make much sense to sell E85 at a lower percentage. We have blender pumps that dispense E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85. If the E85 had only 51% ethanol, it is going for a price much lower than E50 so it wouldn't make much business sense to sell two products with virtually the same percentage at different prices.

I'm sure some states have their own mandates about E85 requirements, but according to the DoE and based on ASTM specs it can be 51%-83%.

See https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/et...e85_specs.html and the attached pic I took while filling up not too long ago here in Illinois.

Some engines do compensate. The 5.3L GM motor is one of them. power charts put out by GM show that motor gains about 15 hp and 5 lb torque on E85. Not a lot, but it is there.

Regarding BTU content, that is generally true in terms of naturally aspirated motors that run primarily on gasoline but also have a ethanol capability, but when an engine is designed around E85 exclusively, then the game rules change.

Agreed, and it seems as though manufacturers are improving the flex-fuel technology in order to better detect and compensate for E85. That wasn't always the case and is why many of the early flex-fuel vehicles were down on power quite a bit.

E85 is very popular with the aftermarket/tuning people because of both the higher octane and cooling properties of E85. Tuned to run strictly on E85 it's not hard to make more power than gasoline, the flip side is you're stuck always running E85 unless you go back to the stock tune. Not too far from me there is an event called "No-Fly Zone" which is 1/2-mile head-to-head racing to see who can get a higher top speed. It's not about who can do it quickest but who is faster, a lot of those folks are running forced induction and E85 to make the most power.

it is not a cure all for anything. But it is a viable alternative depending on location in the country and market pricing. My area, we are swimming in the stuff. I have 46 ethanol plants that surround my area. That is just one state, Iowa. For 2017, Iowa produced 4.125 billion gallons of ethanol.

Some have decried using grain for ethanol production. For every bushel of corn that goes into an ethanol plant, 17-18 lbs of high protein, highly digestible feed supplement comes out the other end. And on top of that, some high quality polymers and other products. Most folks don't realize that corn ethanol production is required to get products that are needed to enhance the ceramic insulators of spark plugs. And in all of this, ethanol production uses almost the same amount of water as it takes for petroleum fuel production.

Ethanol production is also required for products used to produce biodiesel that is made from other crops.

And of the entire U.S. corn production, only 20% is used for human food products, the other 80%, only 40% of that is used for ethanol production, and there is still quality food products made from that. Ethanol production is not a zero sum gain. A bushel of corn that goes into an ethanol plant is not lost on the food supply.

Indeed, I think biofuels are really where we need to be focusing. Everyone loves to talk about hybrids and electric cars but that electricity has to come from somewhere. Those batteries have to come from somewhere. Those places are generally using non-renewable resources.

People moan and groan about the fuel economy, the subsidies, the "wasted crops" and don't seem to consider the alternatives which I think are far worse. I'm not saying or expecting to have vehicles run on 100% biofuel, but ultimately I think increasing the percent of biofuel mixed with conventional petro-based fuels is something people really need to get onboard with.

Similarly, I hope we continue to see companies and universities continue to work to find ways to make biofuel production more efficient and able to produce higher yields while using fewer resources.

[Mainframe]

Well all I know is I'm getting yelled at all the time now because the car takes off like crazy with just the slightest tap of tge pedal, like I said don't care about gas mileage or cost, it runs like a beast, I'm in!

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by Jmkjr72

But then again that truck sits a lot we had an issue this spring when i put it into service with bad gas and a higher % of ethonal would make that worse if we didn’t keep it treated before storage

Ethanol is great for storage. The alcohol absorbs water. It's like getting some Heet included with every fillup.

The only downside to ethanol is if you've been running ethanol-free gas for thousands of miles. Deposits build up in the tank and lines which can be suddenly released, clogging the fuel filter, when you get the first tank of even E-10. This happened to me in the late 1970s when E-10 was introduced. A quick trip to the auto parts store and a few bucks fixed the problem.

Larry

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by trees

A lot of misinformation on ethanol. Petrol companies have spent a bundle on negative propaganda within internet. One must realize that pollution control equipment on modern fuel injection system with oxygen sensor will adjust fuel ratio to stoichiometric. So, ethanol contains liquid oxygen the gas mileage will go down. For many reasons ethanol is close to a perfect fuel. Problem is as was already mentioned, our vehicles are engineered to gasoline standards. Ethanol is handicapped by inferior gasoline limitations. Nontheless, the E10=E30 blends will improve plain gasoline and maximize consumer benefit. The E30 blend should be the new super premium for next gen engines. Our drag and race engine technology has proven the value of high power ethanol blends. Yes, the fuel is more powerful for torque than diesel. Cummings E85 engine produced 2x the power per cubic inch as compared to their diesel engine. The condensation is a non issue, just a miss truth of a physical attribute. Same for corrosion and oil change. Gasoline is far more susceptible to corrosion an moisture. Remember the conked out boats before E10? The cans of "Heet" we had to pour down gas tank to keep our cars running in winter. Draining water out of our boat tanks with plain gas.

(It's Cummins, BTW)

I think you're misunderstanding the moisture issue. Gasoline does not absorb moisture, ethanol does. Moisture is an issue with gasoline in the sense that contamination still causes problems if enough moisture is introduced and its effect is more immediate.

Phase separation is a very real problem and as someone that is a fan of biofuels I'm not saying this to try and say biofuels or biofuel blends are bad, but you can't ignore these issues or say it's a "mistruth."

Not only does phase separation lead to a larger amount of water suddenly finding itself at the bottom of the tank, it's water with pure ethanol. The ethanol contributed to the biofuel blend's octane rating and once the ethanol is separated out you are left with low-octane gasoline. This is a big problem for gas stations because as phase separation occurs the gasoline being dispensed no longer meets the octane rating listed on the pump.

This video is a good demonstration of phase separation vs water being introduced with pure gasoline and why it is more of a problem than moisture being introduced to pure gasoline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1DPsNOCwaU