|
|
08-05-2016, 08:08 PM
|
#1
|
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Utah
Posts: 97
|
How hot is normal?
In So. Utah and its 100-105 degrees. The AC went out yesterday when the wife cranked on her blow dryer. Found out through a mobile tech we needed a new capacitor. $250 and 1 day later we wake up and smell burning wires. I kill the pedestal and start following the smell to where the shore cord comes in and connects to the romex in the trailer and is dispersed out. Pull the cover and everything is black and smoking.
After cooling cutting and reconnecting the wires I'm watching things nervously. The surge protector at the pedestal says we're only pulling 19amps. We're not running too much (we're 30amp) just the fridge and AC etc. my question is, how hot or warm should I expect those wire nuts and wires to get with anywhere from 20-30 amps coming in? They're warm but not hot now, but I'm still nervous. Last year we were in this exact camp and exact spot when we melted our shore cord. (Granted it was 115 degrees 4 days straight.) I'm running the Surge Guard top of the line protector and again only pulling 19 amps at the moment. Any electricians or experienced folks out there have any feedback or suggestions?
Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums
__________________
South Jordan Utah
2013 Prime Time Tracer 3150 BHD
2011 Ram 2500 Laramie Diesel
1 Ol' Lady
3 Girls
1 Boy
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 12:12 AM
|
#2
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Somewhere in the Ozarks...
Posts: 1,143
|
I am not an electrician, therefore have no answers that way, but I do have a suggestion. Run your fridge on propane. Less amp draw, hopefully less problems. You do keep your air on all night, or at least start it early in the morning, right?!? Sounds like you've been through a nightmare; hope you get everything fixed. We've stayed in 100 plus degree heat before when we had only 30 amps, but as long as we started it early in the day, we always stayed cool. Good luck. And you are staying in a RV park, right? Tell your wife to go to the bathroom/showers to use her hair dryer.
__________________
2015 Forest River Rockwood Signature Series Ultra Lite 8289WS w/Diamond pkg.
2014 RAM CTD 6.7 Tradesman 4WD Auto Crew Cab Long Bed
Honda eu2200i generators
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 12:57 AM
|
#3
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Texas Coastal Bend
Posts: 844
|
$250 for a $13 capacitor?!?! I'm in the wrong business.
Seriously, I'm not normally an alarmist, and I too am no electrician, but I know enough to believe that there is a real problem with your electrical system. First, I can't imagine a normal situation where turning on a hairdryer would smoke your A/C capacitor...so there is that. Secondly, burned wiring, especially before your fuse/circuit breaker panel, is a show-stopper in my book...as in no longer used until checked out by a very competent R/V electrical tech. The potential for a fire is just too much for my comfort.
Also, I'm not familiar with the electrical protection you are using, but a true EMS (did I hear someone say Progressive Industries?) is never a bad investment.
Good luck and please be careful!
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 01:18 AM
|
#4
|
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Utah
Posts: 97
|
Couple of thoughts. We're now 10 hours later and all wiring is cool. I'm thinking we just ran too much earlier in the week and it was just too hot. We melted the wiring and therefor had loose wire nuts. The combination caused things to continue to melt and smoke since the nuts were so loose. (Open for a joke here I know)
I'm going to continue to monitor things through the night.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 03:34 AM
|
#5
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
|
A 12-1500 watt dryer will pull 10 amps or more and you are at 19 now....correct? That puts you at 30. This will find the weak link if there is one. Your voltage could be low or gotten low. Hope you keep it going.
Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums
__________________
2017 Puma 297RLSS
2005 Ram 2500 4X4 diesel SMOKER!!
I love puns, irony and tasteless jokes...
born in Texas.... live in Arkansas
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 04:46 AM
|
#6
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 14
|
I'm an electrical engineer. Pulling to much current should trip the circuit breaker in the Park's utility box that your plugged into long before you melt any wiring in your camper. Also, as breakers age they have a tendency to reduce their current carrying capacity making them trip sooner.
Heat in electrical circuits is caused by to much current passing through to much resistance, in your case probably the resistance of deteriorated wire splices. If the evidence of the burned wires is isolated to one spot where the camper wiring is terminated to the shore power cable, you found your problem. Those terminations are probably corroded increasing resistance. This increased resistance will incidentally reduce voltage and available current draw to the rest of the camper and is especially hard on high power devices like air conditioners.
The solution is to cut off all the burnt wire, strip the wire and re-terminate with new wire nuts. Make sure all the copper is clean. If you cut back the insulation and the copper looks oxidized (green, dirty, dull) cut back more or replace the wiring. This should fix the problem.
The wiring should not be noticeably warmer then the surrounding surfaces while in use and definitely not hot enough to blacken the insulation. If it is, too much current and too much resistance.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 06:06 AM
|
#7
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,270
|
Loose connection from factory...you're extremely lucky. Another fine example of fine craftsmanship and quality control. I was reading another thread recently where the trailer side Furrion connection melted down on a new Coachmen TT due to loose connections at its screw terminals.
I hope you reported this properly to the NHTSA? Eventually someone is going to be killed because they are evidently using workers who are either unqualified or just don't care, then the units are pushed out the door with no inspections / quality control. This is not an example of a bad component supplied by some vendor which is inconsequential regardless.
A unit getting shipped with plumbing leaks is one thing as I don't think anyone has ever drowned from one. Sending it out with loose or improper electrical connections is something entirely different. This kind of stuff is downright life threatening.
On our 2017 Roo I changed my converter guts to a Powermax Boondocker. While doing so I discovered all the 12V main connections and grounds were loose including the large gauge feeds from the battery. 12V DC can overheat or arc and cause fires also. The 120V AC connections at the circuit breakers were all over tightened to the point that they smashed the actual conductors flat. They used a square drive bit in a screw-gun to tighten the breaker lugs, and tightened the lugs to the point of stripping the square recess on the screw out. Now you can't get them loose should a breaker go bad but when they smashed the wire flatter than paper, all you have to do is move it a little and it will break right off. I had to redress the entire power center, both the AC and DC sides.
Since the same line worker usually does the same job over and over, day after day, you can bet the farm if one is done wrong, so is every other one.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 06:44 AM
|
#8
|
Site Team
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 10,525
|
(Since the same line worker usually does the same job over and over, day after day, you can bet the farm if one is done wrong, so is every other one.)
Wow! What a pessimistic outlook. Why do you even go camping it's so dangerous.
To the OP- that was scary and a good thing you found the problem! If you re-did your connections with good - properly sized wire nuts that are now good and tight you should be fine.
Camping when it's 105 you guys are tough! We've done it too. Camped in Hoosier NF one time when it was 99 but the up side was they have a GREAT pool! The CG was empty and we had total piece and quiet! (And a good AC unit!).
__________________
Peace!
Dan & Rita D
2017 Nissan Titan 5.6L King cab 4wd
2016 Evergreen Everlite 242RBS
29' empty nest model. Blue Ox WD hitch
(1 queen bed, large main cabin and huge bathroom)
Camping days 2010-53, 2011-47, 2012-41, 2013-41, 2014-31, 2015-40, 2016-44, 2017-63, 2018-75, 2019-32, 2020-41, 2021-49, 2022-43, 2023-66
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 07:08 AM
|
#9
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,270
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyDan
(Since the same line worker usually does the same job over and over, day after day, you can bet the farm if one is done wrong, so is every other one.)
Wow! What a pessimistic outlook. Why do you even go camping it's so dangerous.
|
Nothing pessimistic about stating facts.
Its not as dangerous after I checked every electrical connection. Have you ever checked yours? especially the ones you can not see?
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 07:28 AM
|
#10
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Seaford, De
Posts: 2,377
|
you had a bad connection, and the amp draw of AC and hair dryer combined made it much worse. Sounds like you got it resolved. Luckily the results weren't worse.
__________________
David & Lynn 2014 Coachmen Chaparral Signature 327 RLKS 2016 Ford F350 Lariat CC Dually
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 02:05 PM
|
#11
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Whiting, NJ
Posts: 157
|
Loose electrical connection will build you a fire. Start with a clean plug and receptacle and make sure the screw collar is not cross threaded and tight. Came close to building a fire on our boat years back, not fun.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 02:28 PM
|
#12
|
Learning a lot as I go...
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 216
|
Already lots of input that bad connection leads to this kind of problem.
As some background... electricity follows rules: E = I * R and P = I * E.
So a 110V 30 Amp service at the limit is pulling 3300 Watts. I like to think of that as you power budget and the closer you get to it the more stressed out the system will be.
Now for the really scary part: if P = I * E and E = I * R then we can also say that P = I * I * R. So that 30 Amps turns into a 900x multiplier on ANY resistance in the circuit. What if you had 0.1 Ohms of resistance in a connection? That is 90 Watts of power dissipated as heat and the wires will work as radiators to carry heat away from the connection and into the air. Have you ever touched a 90 Watt light bulb? That can be a significant amount of heat. Also note this 90 Watts comes out of your power budget too so 3300 turned into 3210 Watts (and thus lowers the voltage to everything downstream in the circuit).
Note that wires are rated for max current based on how well they can lose the heat generated by the current flow. Putting lots of wires together in a bundle will reduce the max rating (or should...). Putting lots of wires together in one connection reduces the safety factor in the connection too.
When making electrical connections my preference is to use terminals which I can crimp and then solder. The solder serves to seal the connection against corrosion. For a high power wire nut connection... I would twist them up good and tight with plenty of bare wire length and then solder. I would use the wire nut merely as insulation.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 02:35 PM
|
#13
|
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 126
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp
Nothing pessimistic about stating facts.
Its not as dangerous after I checked every electrical connection. Have you ever checked yours? especially the ones you can not see?
|
x2....That's not being pessimistic at all.....When I opened up my breaker panel I found they (Forest River) tightened the ground lugs so tight I couldn't back them off and one of the lugs actually cut the ground wire, yes it's a good idea to check your wiring.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 05:38 PM
|
#14
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle GA
Posts: 1,289
|
X2 to check wiring. When I first took out my present trailer, it blew the 30Amp incoming breaker, whenever I turned on the AC and hot water heater. The breaker kept getting hot. Each tome we took it out, it got worse. I also began noticing a slight smell of burning insulation. So, I unplugged the camper from the pedestal and took out the breaker. I immediately found the problem. The hot wire was just laying in the metal area, where it should have been connected with a lug. The wire was corroded already and the last 4 inches of insulation was charred. I went to Lowe's and picked up a new breaker, cut off the bad wire, inserted the wire, tightened the lug, hooked it back up, plugged it in, and it has been working wonderfully ever since.
__________________
Ben and Doreen
Home Away From Home - 2017 PT Crusader 315RST
TV - 2016 Ram 3500 Laramie 4X4 6.7 Cummins Diesel
Never Enough Time Camping!!
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 05:56 PM
|
#15
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 9,865
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp
Nothing pessimistic about stating facts.
Its not as dangerous after I checked every electrical connection. Have you ever checked yours? especially the ones you can not see?
|
My only question to you if it is a manufacturing defect as you think, why did not it not show up for 3-4 years. They show their unit as being a 2013.
__________________
2005 Dodge 3500 Cummins
2017 Wildwood Lodge 4092 BFL
1966 Mustang GT
1986 Mustang SVO
Lillie Spoiled Rotten Boxer Mix
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 06:00 PM
|
#16
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: St Simons Island, GA
Posts: 1,234
|
This is what happens when you have a connection work loose. It shut down my progressive unit before a fire could start. This was an FNL fuse.
__________________
Aviator Wright Flyer #1919
Army Pathfinder Vietnam, 3 tours
DAV, MOPH, VFW, NRA, 1stCav. ABN
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 07:07 PM
|
#17
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,270
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oaklevel
My only question to you if it is a manufacturing defect as you think, why did not it not show up for 3-4 years. They show their unit as being a 2013.
|
Who knows why it took 3 or 4 years to show up, why does that matter? If the factory connection can work its way loose on a 3 year old trailer, its certainly a manufacturing defect. It should not be able to work its way loose for any reason in any amount of time. That's how electrical fires start and people are killed.
Oh but wait,.....maybe its the ever popular "component failure" that is not made by F.R. excuse? They did not make the OP's wire nuts or the wire itself.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 08:29 PM
|
#18
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 639
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp
Who knows why it took 3 or 4 years to show up, why does that matter? If the factory connection can work its way loose on a 3 year old trailer, its certainly a manufacturing defect. It should not be able to work its way loose for any reason in any amount of time. That's how electrical fires start and people are killed.
Oh but wait,.....maybe its the ever popular "component failure" that is not made by F.R. excuse? They did not make the OP's wire nuts or the wire itself.
|
Guess we would be best served by bringing home our new MH/TT, completely disassembling it and then putting it back together making sure it's done properly. Sure can't depend on the QC folks on the assembly line.
But then again, I'm supposed to enjoy rebuilding what I paid all those dollars to buy.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 09:03 PM
|
#19
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Western PA
Posts: 88
|
I do a fair amount of electrical work during my working hours. My 2015 Georgetown had so many loose wires I would have refused the purchase had I known. There is no place in life for faulty electrical skills, I.E a good screwdriver, a strong wrist and the ability to understand "Electricity". Everyone should have their unit checked early on. If you need to ask some of the questions I see on the forum please get qualified help before attempting a FIX. Safety First. Just my 220 volts.
|
|
|
08-06-2016, 09:42 PM
|
#20
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,223
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by danc
x2....That's not being pessimistic at all.....When I opened up my breaker panel I found they (Forest River) tightened the ground lugs so tight I couldn't back them off and one of the lugs actually cut the ground wire, yes it's a good idea to check your wiring.
|
A pessimist is just an optimist with more information.
__________________
BIRDS AREN’T REAL
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|