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Old 08-26-2015, 04:35 PM   #101
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I seem to remember a US Supreme Court decision about searching a car that the cops had to have that dog there, if the cops had to bring the dog it had better be just a few minutes, if not the cops had no case. I think it was unreasonable search.


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You are partially correct. I do not NEED a dog to use the motor vehicle exception, only need to meet the requirements as posted above. Where you are right us when a dog is called it can not extend the length of the stop beyond a bit longer than a regular stop, so yes just a few minutes. Up here there are very few dogs.. So rest easy on random sniff checks, with are also not legal here on a car stop. Need more than just reasonable suspicion to run a dog around your car. Again this is only here, every state is diffrent.

Here is PA you do jot need to inform and officer you are carrying. Depending on the interaction or context of the contact it may be advisable for your safety.. Do not need to get hurt if it gets spotted un expectedly...

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Old 08-26-2015, 04:42 PM   #102
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I'm not hiding anything, so what makes the difference? Why antagonize them? Let 'em search and go on your way.
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Old 08-26-2015, 04:47 PM   #103
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I have seen and heard similar remarks like yours " ...they could hold you till they get a warrant."

I often wonder how many times law enforcement personnel cannot get a warrant because a judge refuses to sign one. It almost seems to me that you never hear of a judge refusing to sign one.

Is getting a warrant mostly just a formality in the process or not? Replies from current or past law enforcement personnel would be appreciated.
If... I have PC for a warrant we cannot just hold someone til we get it from a judge on a car stop, that is unreasonable. Now this is for a search warrant mind you.. So no you will not be forced to wait while I get one. You will be free to leave but your car will not. It will be impounded.

Thus is why the vehicle exception exists. I can take your car for three days (making up a number) while I hope to get a warrant, may not, but probably will if my PC is strong. If I do and find nothingness you lost your car for three days.

Now, if I search with out warrant at the stop, I still need the same strong PC AND the above requirements. If I'd not have it and still search then the evidence I find, if any at all, is thrown out and I may face civil actions depending on the severity of my violation.

What is less intrusive? A or B?

Now I will also ammend my response to no search, it will depend on the reason. A prisoner escaped and they think he broke into my trailer or shed along the house... Here's the keys.. So it will. Depend on the situation and facts at hand.

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Old 08-26-2015, 04:57 PM   #104
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Yes we have the right to refuse. We also have the right to comply. In February, I was coming back from Phoenix with my TT in tow, stopped at a border-patrol control point, and was asked to pull over out of the way. I asked why and the officer said they wanted to check my trailer. I pulled over with some semis and parked. The dog walked around the trailer and didn't pause anywhere for any length of time. Another dog was brought around one of the trucks and stopped and barked. They couldn't tell if he barked at the truck, or at my trailer. The officer that had been around my trailer with his dog spoke to the other and they asked me to move back some for separation. They swapped... ie the dog that barked went around my trailer, and no reaction... The dog that had been around me went around the truck, stopped in the same spot, and barked.

Then they asked me if they could look through my trailer and truck. I asked if they really needed to, since the dog didn't actually stop at my trailer. He asked where I'd been... and I showed him my pickup bed full of model gliders, and explained where I'd been. He thanked me for my cooperation, and sent me on my way. The semi was being searched as I passed by, the driver was protesting but that's as much as I know... I definitely went on. In that situation, I would have requested a warrant, because they had no real probable cause. I'm not sure it would have been required of them.
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:01 PM   #105
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Doc73 - thanks for replying. I find it somewhat amusing (from a glad it's not me side) that while a person cannot be held under certain circumstances,his/her vehicle will be impounded. This certainly imposes a great deal of inconvenience and expense on a person.

As far as getting or not getting a warrant,what has been your experience?
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:09 PM   #106
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We spent a week at Big Bend National Park two years ago. On our way from Terlingua to Alpine, we passed through a border patrol check-point. It took five minutes total including the expected 'where have you been?' and 'where are you going?' questions. I realize your experience is not like mine. The best trip I've had in the state was two weeks at Stonewall between Fredericksburg and Johnson City but even that was a 300 mile trip south of my house. I have no desire to camp any further south.

Not all cops are bad. Not all of Texas is worthless.


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Mr Dan I re read my post as I was afraid I had something I never intended to. I believe TX is on if the best states and absolutely love the people. That said the border in all border states is just not a place I want to be. I likewise will avoid all border areas. We lived in Austin and the hill country is a special place. We had hoped to spend time in the spring to see the wild flowers that Lady Byrd Johnson had such a huge love of.
So please don't think that I dislike TX. It's a wonderful place and if they ever do. Spit from the rest of the country I hope that they will let me in. LOL
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:18 PM   #107
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Mr Dan I re read my post as I was afraid I had something I never intended to. I believe TX is on if the best states and absolutely love the people. That said the border in all border states is just not a place I want to be. I likewise will avoid all border areas. We lived in Austin and the hill country is a special place. We had hoped to spend time in the spring to see the wild flowers that Lady Byrd Johnson had such a huge love of.
So please don't think that I dislike TX. It's a wonderful place and if they ever do. Spit from the rest of the country I hope that they will let me in. LOL
I was born in Texas, raised in Texas and with the exception of my lengthy time away to serve my country, live in Texas and it will 'always' be my home. BUT......I won't go near the border myself any more. Too much uncertainty in that area.....to me any way.

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Old 08-26-2015, 05:30 PM   #108
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Mr Dan I re read my post as I was afraid I had something I never intended to. I believe TX is on if the best states and absolutely love the people. That said the border in all border states is just not a place I want to be. I likewise will avoid all border areas. We lived in Austin and the hill country is a special place. We had hoped to spend time in the spring to see the wild flowers that Lady Byrd Johnson had such a huge love of.
So please don't think that I dislike TX. It's a wonderful place and if they ever do. Spit from the rest of the country I hope that they will let me in. LOL
Phil, I'm happy to report that I took your post as you intended it. I agreed/agree with your assessment of there being an imaginary line beyond which I won't travel. My Big Bend trip was in the family car and not with my truck and 5th wheel. My last line was a blind shot into a couple of previous squirrel nests!
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:34 PM   #109
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First, I must state that I have the utmost respect for our officers. Never let a law enforcement officer search without a warrant. There are many cases where illegal substances, cash, or explosives (mainly firearm loads) were found. You may have a pre-owned unit, or maybe a passenger dropped something. I have heard of a con on probation going to jail because of a .22 load found in carpet that he removed as part of his job.
LEO's can hold you for a reasonable time, and then have to charge you or allow you to go on your way.
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:37 PM   #110
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Doc73 - thanks for replying. I find it somewhat amusing (from a glad it's not me side) that while a person cannot be held under certain circumstances,his/her vehicle will be impounded. This certainly imposes a great deal of inconvenience and expense on a person.

As far as getting or not getting a warrant,what has been your experience?
EXACTLY! This is why they allow this violation (for all intensive purposes) of the 4th amendment. The court feels us just looking and releasing if nothing found is better than a car in impound costing money...We would pay your bill if I found nothing, but we are NOT everyone!

Our DA (district attorney) prefers a seizing of the car and get a warrant. Which, I have had good luck with when done this way because, again, I am not a jack booted thug. If I am going through this trouble it is for a reason, not a hunch to ruin your day.

That said our common practice is to tell the person what is going to happen at that point, car seizure and such. Depending on circumstance I will just search OR more likely... Not to scare them but the truth in the matter... Then allow then the option to consent to the search to give them the choice to avoid the impounding... Again, NOT to force the search because if I had no reason to search then the asking consent would be thrown at me to suppress the evidence because I can not coerce someone into allowing a consent with threat of violence or worse treatment.. It is solely done to save then from loosing the car.

EDIT: most things we search for and find will only be a summons (not arrested on the spot) so they will be IDed and sent on their way pending charges being filed. So taking their car would really mess them up because it is not like theyd be in jail..
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