Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-27-2015, 05:04 AM   #171
Site Team
 
wmtire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Northeast Louisiana
Posts: 15,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by kandl View Post
Holy hockey socks! 171 posts in less than 24 hrs! OP touched a nerve
Yes, this thread does seem to be a popular one. It is moving so fast that it is hard for the site team to properly monitor it. It has remained extremely civil and respectful for the most part sans a few exceptions. We want to thank our great members for this.

However, there are a few posts that don't pass our community guidelines here. It is going to take a little bit for the site team to catch up and get it all sorted out. As such, we are going to need to close this thread to allow our volunteer site team the opportunity to read it all.

We hope you understand this, and everyone involved in this thread can take a little rest while the site team tries to come up to speed. Ya are definitely running with this faster than we can. Oh, my aching knees!

Thank You
__________________

__________________
2011 Flagstaff 831 RLBSS

Ducks are just all-terrain chickens
wmtire is online now   Reply
Old 08-27-2015, 06:01 PM   #172
Moderator Emeritus
 
MtnGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 9,274
As you can see, the thread is back open.

Those that want, can continue to post "RESPECTFULLY AND NON-POLICTICALLY" !!!

Some deletions were required again. I think I have cleaned up the mess, but if any member sees a controversial post, please hit the report button and we will take a look at it.
__________________

__________________

Chap , DW Joy, and Fur Baby Sango
2017 F350 Lariat CCSB, SRW, 4x4, 6.7 PS
2017 Grand Design Reflection 337RLS
MtnGuy is offline   Reply
Old 08-27-2015, 06:55 PM   #173
Senior Member
 
nomad297's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGuy View Post
As you can see, the thread is back open.

Those that want, can continue to post "RESPECTFULLY AND NON-POLICTICALLY" !!!

Some deletions were required again. I think I have cleaned up the mess, but if any member sees a controversial post, please hit the report button and we will take a look at it.
This is what I call great moderation. No other forum I frequent exercises such great rationality.

Bruce
__________________
2016 Rockwood Windjammer 3029W Diamond
2015 Chevy 3500HD LTZ 6.0 Crew Cab 4x4 Long Bed 4.10:1 SRW
nomad297 is offline   Reply
Old 08-27-2015, 06:59 PM   #174
Senior Member
 
mark0224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,443
I believe the last paragraph on this site ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_exception) will answer the question
If probable cause yes they can search a vehicle during a vehicle stop and a trailer is part of the tow vehicle when going down the road. Although if it is parked not connected to tow vehicle and connected to shore power it is now a home.
Now mind you this is only my interpretation of what that site says. My personal thought is let them when they are wrong (not allowed to damage property) they open themselves to legal Proceedings and next time they will think twice before doing it.
I believe they can detain you while they get a warrant and then search so either way they can do it.
Too many feel the need to challenge the police these days and from what I've seen it comes out bad for one or the other unless your a lawyer or a judge and have been trained in law your probably not going to be right. As I said the paragraph from that site this was my interpretation.
__________________
Think about things before you do them make life easier not harder.
mark0224 is offline   Reply
Old 08-27-2015, 10:45 PM   #175
Senior Member
 
blwnsmoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: NH
Posts: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0224 View Post
I believe the last paragraph on this site ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_exception) will answer the question
If probable cause yes they can search a vehicle during a vehicle stop and a trailer is part of the tow vehicle when going down the road. Although if it is parked not connected to tow vehicle and connected to shore power it is now a home.
Now mind you this is only my interpretation of what that site says. My personal thought is let them when they are wrong (not allowed to damage property) they open themselves to legal Proceedings and next time they will think twice before doing it.
I believe they can detain you while they get a warrant and then search so either way they can do it.
Too many feel the need to challenge the police these days and from what I've seen it comes out bad for one or the other unless your a lawyer or a judge and have been trained in law your probably not going to be right. As I said the paragraph from that site this was my interpretation.
You are correct in regards to needing probable cause but probably cause still falls on the 3 things I mentioned many pages ago.

1) Must believe you have committed a crime OR
2) Must believe you are about to commit a crime OR
3) Must believe you are currently committing a crime.

If none of the 3 exist, they can't search and they can't require you to ID yourself.
__________________
2015 F350 6.7 Platinum
2015 Coachmen 360IBL
blwnsmoke is offline   Reply
Old 08-27-2015, 11:29 PM   #176
Who Dares, Wins
 
doc73's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chester County, PA
Posts: 4,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by blwnsmoke View Post
You are correct in regards to needing probable cause but probably cause still falls on the 3 things I mentioned many pages ago.

1) Must believe you have committed a crime OR
2) Must believe you are about to commit a crime OR
3) Must believe you are currently committing a crime.

If none of the 3 exist, they can't search and they can't require you to ID yourself.
For us in PA I just need Probable cause, which would cover 1 and 3 because I would have PC (proof that a crime is happening or happened). I may cover 2 as well but I could not think of case where I would be using the fact that I think your going to commit a crime. I am sure one could come up with one, just cannot think of it at this second.

On further thought... Just thinking out loud. If I only had 2 I prob should have gotten a warrant. No lawyer, but I would think at that point this would mean I have prior knowledge and therefore would NOT be able to use the MV Exception because it requires NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE or time to get a warrant.

On a traffic stop you are required to provided license, registration, and proof of insurance for the driver only (IN PA) passengers do not need to ID themselves by law. If you are detained then you do not need ID yourself. If it is a mere encounter (walking down the street and the cop asked to talk for a few minutes or you get your stuff back from the officer after a car stop and told you are free to leave) you can just ignore them and walk / drive away. (PA LAW)

EDIT: After more thought... Officer cannot just believe to have PC they have to have solid hard fact, not a believe something MAY have occurred or did occur. That would be Reasonable Suspicion, so not allowed to search without warrant or prob even get a warrant.
__________________

Pat, Jen & Heather... Oh yeah and our trained attack trailer cat, Cinnamon-EOW 11/22/2017
2015 ChevyHD D-Max
2018 Artic Wolf 315tbh8
doc73 is offline   Reply
Old 08-27-2015, 11:56 PM   #177
RV Vagabond Jerry
 
Jerry Dixon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Full Time Vagabond
Posts: 157
I heard that in some areas, judges give the highway patrol a few spare search warrants so the officer can fill in the details on site, saving everyone a whole lot of time.
__________________
Jerry Dixon is offline   Reply
Old 08-27-2015, 11:59 PM   #178
Who Dares, Wins
 
doc73's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chester County, PA
Posts: 4,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Dixon View Post
I heard that in some areas, judges give the highway patrol a few spare search warrants so the officer can fill in the details on site, saving everyone a whole lot of time.
LOL I am sorry I laughed when I read that.. Maybe in the good old boy days. But not anymore (if ever). This is, of course, unless the judge would want to join the officer as call mates...
__________________

Pat, Jen & Heather... Oh yeah and our trained attack trailer cat, Cinnamon-EOW 11/22/2017
2015 ChevyHD D-Max
2018 Artic Wolf 315tbh8
doc73 is offline   Reply
Old 08-28-2015, 12:53 AM   #179
Senior Member
 
blwnsmoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: NH
Posts: 338
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc73 View Post
For us in PA I just need Probable cause, which would cover 1 and 3 because I would have PC (proof that a crime is happening or happened). I may cover 2 as well but I could not think of case where I would be using the fact that I think your going to commit a crime. I am sure one could come up with one, just cannot think of it at this second.

On further thought... Just thinking out loud. If I only had 2 I prob should have gotten a warrant. No lawyer, but I would think at that point this would mean I have prior knowledge and therefore would NOT be able to use the MV Exception because it requires NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE or time to get a warrant.

On a traffic stop you are required to provided license, registration, and proof of insurance for the driver only (IN PA) passengers do not need to ID themselves by law. If you are detained then you do not need ID yourself. If it is a mere encounter (walking down the street and the cop asked to talk for a few minutes or you get your stuff back from the officer after a car stop and told you are free to leave) you can just ignore them and walk / drive away. (PA LAW)

EDIT: After more thought... Officer cannot just believe to have PC they have to have solid hard fact, not a believe something MAY have occurred or did occur. That would be Reasonable Suspicion, so not allowed to search without warrant or prob even get a warrant.
I understand you are a police officer but a state does not overrule the constitution. Unless PA has changed recently, PA is not a "stop and identify" state. Most motor vehicle tickets and moving violations are just that, violations... and not crimes therefore even if you pull me over, I do not have to provide ID to you regardless of your law (4th constitutional amendment). The Supreme Court has even upheld that in "stop and identify" states, simply telling a police officer your name satisfies the ID requirement and does not have to show a written ID.

Same goes for sobriety check points. You do not have to show ID or answer any questions. You do not have to get out of your car either by simply invoking your 5th amendment rights. Simply rolling your Window down 2 inches and state you are invoking your 5th amendment rights and are not answring any questions protects us unless again 1, 2 or 3 is met.

Now all this may seem extreme but the fact is, majority of US citizens do not know their own rights and get nervous around police officers during regular traffic stops. Standing up for your rights as a citizen does not mean we are guilty of anything legally gives a police officer a suspicion that we are hiding or doing something wrong.

And believe it or not, I have nothing against cops (although my post may sound otherwise), you guys have a really tough job out there... especially with all the crap that is going on out there now with the shootings and racial cards being thrown every direction. So thank you for your service and protection..
__________________
blwnsmoke is offline   Reply
Old 08-28-2015, 02:38 AM   #180
Who Dares, Wins
 
doc73's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chester County, PA
Posts: 4,825
Quote:
Originally Posted by blwnsmoke View Post
I understand you are a police officer but a state does not overrule the constitution. Unless PA has changed recently, PA is not a "stop and identify" state. Most motor vehicle tickets and moving violations are just that, violations... and not crimes therefore even if you pull me over, I do not have to provide ID to you regardless of your law (4th constitutional amendment). The Supreme Court has even upheld that in "stop and identify" states, simply telling a police officer your name satisfies the ID requirement and does not have to show a written ID.

Same goes for sobriety check points. You do not have to show ID or answer any questions. You do not have to get out of your car either by simply invoking your 5th amendment rights. Simply rolling your Window down 2 inches and state you are invoking your 5th amendment rights and are not answring any questions protects us unless again 1, 2 or 3 is met.

Now all this may seem extreme but the fact is, majority of US citizens do not know their own rights and get nervous around police officers during regular traffic stops. Standing up for your rights as a citizen does not mean we are guilty of anything legally gives a police officer a suspicion that we are hiding or doing something wrong.

And believe it or not, I have nothing against cops (although my post may sound otherwise), you guys have a really tough job out there... especially with all the crap that is going on out there now with the shootings and racial cards being thrown every direction. So thank you for your service and protection..
I will try to cover your take on things..

Not sure what you mean by stop and identify state beyond maybe we can stop and ID anyone?? I guess I could, but that would be up to the person stopped in a mere encounter situation and whether they feel compelled to talk to or provide me anything. Hence the whole mere encounter / being detained for some sort of issue part I wrote.
EDIT: googled it.. No you cannot be arrested for the lone fact of not IDing yourself to me.

As far as presenting ID on a traffic stop, by our laws, PA courts and YES the supreme court support you (DRIVER ONLY) being required to present the info as written above. Traffic offences in PA are technically considered crimes. They are called Summary Arrest needing the reasonable suspicion to enact. With this you are detained, not free to leave during the reasonable amount of time to conduct the stop and required to present your ID. If you do not or refuse then you may or may not face some sort of arrest through summons (more traffic tickets) or further detainment until you can be visually Ided though fingerprinting or other databases we may have at the precinct house.

Most likely you will be free to leave on what info you give but depending on where you are and what they have at their disposal at that stop your car maybe impounded until the owner or valid driver with an ID appears. If they cannot confirm you are the person claiming to be and therefore cannot guarantee you can drive so you may loose your car for some period. If your lucky it just gets parked. Even if you are cited for these violations they are only summary offences in PA so $25 fines plus some other fees. You may have a right to free travel (never have found "right to free travel" anywhere in the Constitution) but driving is a privilege.

If you are stopped on the street (for something requiring you to ID yourself lets assume IE trespassing, public drunk etc..) and do not provide an actual ID to me that might be fine. You do need to at least give you info verbally (name and date of birth, social security number, address) we will try to visually ID you if possible, gather more info to confirm you are who you say you are. If we cannot determine your ID through this method you will be detained and fingerprinted for ID purposes more than likely.

On a car stop I can order you out of the car if I want, it is up to me, the PA courts have held this. I do not because people are sometimes dumb and walk into traffic... Get hit and now I have even more paperwork! Currently the checkpoints are legal in PA. They have always stayed as such but the restrictions and requirements go back and forth. You do not have to say, do or provide anything. We cannot order you from the car, unless we suspect you are under the influence. Then you are detained (not free to leave) and the above applies. We currently do not / cannot require you to provide any driver's license while just talking (again, assuming we do not think you are drunk). We can "pull you over" if we observe another traffic / equipment violation (out headlights, unregistered) if this happens see above under traffic stop.. Rarely do WE do this because it just slows things down and then may violate the guidelines and requirements to run the legal checkpoint. The fact is we are not there to get people with out headlights... Looking for DUI's

No offence taken. Even if it was meant as such, life is too short to be angry!

All I can say to folks is do not believe everything on Youtube, Facebook or what your buddies, friend's friend once heard.. AND NOT EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET IS TRUE... I could be a 12 year old kid sitting in my parent's basement on my Xbox, no way to know for sure. In the end every state (sometimes city) is different and what I may say is OK in PA will get you arrested in NJ. If something is done incorrectly by the officer that is what complaint forms are for, the court to sort it out is arrested, lawyer and law suits.


Think I got it all.

Description of how our traffic tickets work and how to handle:
http://www.pabar.org/clips/trafficviolations.pdf
__________________

__________________

Pat, Jen & Heather... Oh yeah and our trained attack trailer cat, Cinnamon-EOW 11/22/2017
2015 ChevyHD D-Max
2018 Artic Wolf 315tbh8
doc73 is offline   Reply
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




ForestRiverForums.com is not in any way associated with Forest River, Inc. or its associated RV manufacturing divisions.


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:10 PM.