MY thoughts on quality and MANAGEMENT.

[pops p]

I purchased a new 2013 Jayco 1206 popup in March of 2013. In May, the electric lift system broke and it took the dealer 62 days to repair because "no parts are available at the factory." I called and argued with the factory - still said no parts but sent me a check for $100 for my "inconvenience." Dealer said that it was the hot part of the year for camping anyway. Ditched both Jayco and the dealer. This past September I traded said popup and purchased a new 2015 Coachmen Catalina 263 RLS. Upon getting it home and sanitizing the water system, I detected a water leak behind the shower wall. I returned it to the dealer so that it could be checked for damage behind the wall and it took them 3 1/2 weeks to get it looked at and determine that it was a loose connection. First time out, under city water pressure, there was a leak at the pump - loose connection. Also smelled propane - defective fitting in stove. Needless to say, I fixed both myself in the matter of an hour and a half. So much for Coachmen's pressure testing either the water system and gas lines as advertised in there brochure. Absolutely no QC.

[geotex1]

You cannot compare automotive industry to the RV industry. I have come from the automotive industry and it is an entirely different animal. On the automotive line, labor is actually paid better (motivated) but are nothing more than assemblers. We designers have engineered in the quality measures meaning it has been taken away, in large part, from the individual worker. Parts only fit one way; fasteners with head selection to have positive, slip free drive; tooling designed to install only to specified torque and at regulated speed; tolerances in all components such that everything fits the same every time; and, I could go on and on. It's a multi-billion dollar a year industry with production volumes that simply dwarf the RV industry in every way... So quality is kept in check with the price tag on the car for your GMs, Fords, Chryslers, and imports. Even if you want to argue the hand-built exotic cars, you cannot use them to compare to the general RV Industry either because in that exotic market you truly pay for craftsmanship, attention to detail, and quality. I suppose if you have ever had the pleasure of being in a hand-built-to-owner-needs travel trailer, 5th wheel, or coach you see outstanding quality that also comes with the price tag - i.e., those would be the exotics of the RV Industry I suppose.

The general RV industry will probably never be able to follow in the mass-production automotive model. There's simply not enough demand to tool up to those levels and mass production as far as I can estimate. So you're going to continue with production lines of per-piece workers who are compensated on the low end commensurate with skills, which aren't high given semi-repetitive job function. Thus, it doesn't necessary nurture a pride-in-the-work/ownership mentality in general. So then you have to catch things in quality control checks, but then what are the acceptable tolerances and where do you have the checks? If at each step of construction, you will turn out a better product and it will require a higher price because of the slower steps making construction time longer. If inspected at the end, your tolerances of acceptable will be huge because it'll be too late to turn back to rework some things (e.g., damaged flooring is rarely replaced because it's caught too late in the game when walls and cabinets are in so you end up with some sort of bad patch or filler). This approach keeps the build cost down, fast production, greater margin of profit, and aligns with an acceptable business practice to accept that X% will have issues needing repairs/replacement post-delivery, and on occassion X% will require a monetary compensation or reimbursement.

Final thought, it is generally not MANAGEMENT involved with quality at all. Management concerns itself with the business, profits, returns to investors, and investments needed to keep the company thriving. You can argue that quality is a function of all of these responsibilities, and you are correct, but, for instance, take the membership of this forum, and really the sum of all the internet forums for campers, and then compare it to the numbers of units sold and then the number of units registered. You will arrive quickly at why the larger RV manufacturers are not pursuing quality enhancements as goal #1... The complaints with quality and problems are not as high as perceived when you compare actual numbers.

[The Villager]

geotex1 ARE YOU SERIOUS!! All the excuses and bs are worthless when poor workmanship is viewed for what it is. I would be thrilled if a manufacturer of any origin would build an rv that doesn't require the buyer to finalize. If we as buyers are skilled enough to modify or complete a project whereas people doing the job daily can't do better....The sorry excuse for a company and the semi-skilled workers should be unemployed.

[geotex1]

Originally Posted by The Villager

geotex1 ARE YOU SERIOUS!! All the excuses and bs are worthless when poor workmanship is viewed for what it is. I would be thrilled if a manufacturer of any origin would build an rv that doesn't require the buyer to finalize. If we as buyers are skilled enough to modify or complete a project whereas people doing the job daily can't do better....The sorry excuse for a company and the semi-skilled workers should be unemployed.

I am quite serious. This is how industry works in this day, and unfortunately long before current times. There's not enough "voice" to counter what lies in the "number$..."

Now understand, I am not defending them nor am I agreeing with it. I'm simply relaying how the machine churns for a high production company. My personal perspective is one that is very different because I am an engineer, and my training and very nature are to design and build the very best! Unfortunately, we engineers have no such freedom if we also look to keep food on the table and a roof over our heads... Something that bothers me is the layman's tendency to blame the design or the engineering for whatever short-coming discovered because they have no concept of how bean counters and management disfigure, roughen, and cheapen designs to maximize profit, but that is the name of the game...

You certainly do have options to have a RV of any sort constructed just the way you want it (within weight, legality, and constructability considerations) and with very high quality. However, those are not high/mass production units and come in at a very different price point from small, specialty coach and trailer builders like New Horizons where a custom 5er can set you back a $200K+.

[davel1971]

goetex1, you couldn't be more incorrect. 99% of the problems owners have are from poor workmanship, and nothing else. It's not the materials or the process that is failing. As long as we keep buying them, I guess they won't change anything.

[CLewis]

I have owned 2 previous Heartland RV'S. They were so poorly constructed. I had pages of things wrong which I won't go into on this forum. We have had no problems at all with our new Rockwood. What a difference in the workmanship. I would never buy another Heartland product but that's just my experience
I also think what you pay for these RV's you should get at least a 5 year warranty that covers everything with no loop holes
Then maybe they would take more time building them.

[Green Drake]

All this complaining about shoddy workmanship, poor QC, etc., etc., and yet, we're part of the problem because we keep lining up to buy this junk. What's wrong with this picture?

[RSchleder]

Many good thoughts here! As a former QC manager in the Aerospace/Military industry I can agree with most of what is being said here. Management MUST be involved with the quality of the products being manufactured. Design, manufacturing processes, and material does have a hugh impact on the final quality of the company's product. And YES, it's always less expensive to do the job correctly the first time. Rework/warranty repair is very expensive and seriously effects the bottom line. Excellent inputs everyone!!!!

[SirMondo]

I hear you, we bought a new 2013 Sandpiper 376BHOK and took delivery Sept 5,2013 and had major flood in bathroom because shower stall was not caulked, major water intrusion through nose cap into master closet ruining everything, still not repaired, had mold inspection done in December 2014 and came back positive and nobody cares. Still not fixed, brutal dealership and all forest river can say is will put in your file, oh then motor for awning quit, complete lemon and now being forced to look at legal action

[Flybob]

The CEO mentioned in the earlier referenced article " we made record profits this year" . His job is to have the company make money. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Yes until we stop lining up to buy the products there is little motivation to change.

[The Villager]

davel1971 I believe you are on the same wave length that I am expressing. Perhaps geotex1 works in a design or engineering capacity thus the basis for his thinking. There are times that design workers blow it but frankly I think that is the exception...not the norm. However, when a worker installs duct work without tape or a door that does not open or close smoothly, that has nothing to do with design. Pride in your work is where the job falls apart. Once we acquire the unit and we begin "fixing things" that is the point where our concerns originate with workmanship. We can detect no air coming out of a living room vent...why can't a final assembly line walk thru inspect the quality of construction and send a unit back for re-work? The answer is they can if the pride of a job well done engrained in them by management. When the redo items appear in management reports, this should sound an alarm for them to get out of their plush chairs, stop counting their profits and walk the assembly lines. After a walk through asking questions of the workers top management should address their findings with their supervisors and other production control staff. This is management 101 not rocket science.

[bubbles]

It seems to me that the vast majority of RV industry leaders may have adopted one of the most ridiculous concepts ever conceived (IMO); "SELF INSPECTION". How can anyone do a job and then do the inspection on what he/she thinks is correct and find flaws? I always wanted someone else to check my work and point out my mistakes and then verify the rework was done correctly. With all the issues one has to encounter, no matter the manufacturer, it would not surprise me. Just a thought.

[Evereddie]

After reading this thread and many others regarding workmanship and higher quality coming from the top down I think one force that can have a positive effect actually comes from the bottom up. Tight, strong, unyielding LEMON LAWS. It has been a positive force in the auto industry and it's high time it was applied to the RV industry. This would also have the positive effect of having a documented failure rate of a given model, manufacturer, plant, that would HAVE to be held accountable.

[SirMondo]

of course they made record profits, because they advertise great quality but when challenged they pass the buck, 5th wheel built feb 2013, I bought aug 2013 and took delivery sept2013, by nov 2013 had water intrusion through roof, dealer blames manufacturer and manufacturer blames dealer, meanwhile im left with over $65000 investment rotting with mold

[gfarmcafe]

As a believer in researching products before purchase, ie Consumer Reports, I'm wondering why publications devoted to this lifestyle can not honestly evaluate the overall engineering/workmanship of these manufacturers. I think if they did, the CEO's would run, and not walk to their assembly lines if they want them to keep running!

[MillerTime]

All these posts and i only know of one or two people that have or are currently talking to forest river managment about some of the things mentioned, and how to make it better for the customer.
Ependydad is working with some of the lines of FR with the management about how to make this better.
We can rant and rave on here all we want, but unless you work with the manuf. directly or calmly talk/work with them about handling this better, your wasting your time.
All this bashing may make you feel better, but it isn't going to solve a thing!

[5 hole]

Originally Posted by gfarmcafe

We're at the point where we'll camp another season in our 2015 FR TT, and then I'm thinking seriously about looking at those vintage trailers that have been professionally rehab'd. They may cost more initially, but they have a lot of appeal and seem to have quality, modern materials and pride of workmanship. Who can forget those Shasta wings and wide whitewalls? Plus, we have a 21 year old pulling monster of a Suburban that I wouldn't trade for anything!

But, herein lies the problem. It will cost you SIGNIFICANTLY more money to do this than buy the equivalent RV. That is why we have issues on current TT etc. Want an 'automotive epiphany' well expect to pay for it.

[gfarmcafe]

To Millertime and 5 Hole, I will expect to pay more and gladly do it for my piece of mind. As for all of this "bashing", I do believe that it will eventually do some good. These CEO's don't live in bubbles - they know what's going on, and that's what really bothers me, they don't seem to care right now. Over the long haul, they'll do what is good for their companies or they'll cease to exist.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by gfarmcafe

To Millertime and 5 Hole, I will expect to pay more and gladly do it for my piece of mind. As for all of this "bashing", I do believe that it will eventually do some good. These CEO's don't live in bubbles - they know what's going on, and that's what really bothers me, they don't seem to care right now. Over the long haul, they'll do what is good for their companies or they'll cease to exist.

In my opinion,Mathis thread comes up every 4-6 months and it is the same old story each time. I've never seen anyone come up with an active plan to affect change. No one has planned through a communication plan or a method of intentionally getting the RV industry's attention (or heck- even pro-consume legislation).

Until these threads morph from "how awful RV manufacturers are" to organizing a grassroots campaign, these threads are pointless wastes of time. Everyone gets to blow off some steam but then it starts to create divisiveness in the community.

[X96mnn]

To the OP

99% of the people will agree with you and ask for improvement.
95% of the people will not support the theory when it comes time to use their pocket books.

There are very well made RVs out there, but they cost a lot more, and for the most part not half ton capable. This eliminates a huge market for manufacturers. The CEO of Thor and FR have a CEO for each brand, they are held to numbers and unfortunately or fortunately, which ever way you want to look at it, demand for a inexpensive, light weight trailer commands the market.

I spent 40k on my 5th wheel, which in today's market not a lot of money. The guy parked next to me spent closer to 90k. They are of almost the exact width, height and length, very similar features in both. His sits on triple axels and weight almost 4000pds more then mine. The exterior and interior finish is flawless. But that's what 50k More got him. His is 4 years old and looks like it just came off a lot.

Long and short, you get what you pay for. If you want quality people need to prove it and pay for it. The dealers are paid very well to be quality control for the manufacturer on theses rigs and I put failure on them. They prefer to skip the PDI, take the 1300 and pocket it, push your service out 3 months while you get your list together. This way when you come back it's warranty work and not a poor PDI.