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Old 01-19-2015, 05:12 PM   #41
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I stand by my original post. There is no excuse for poor workmanship. Geotex1, I also worked for the auto industry Ford Motor Company. 31 years. You are dead wrong at least about MANAGENENT and its responsibility for quality.
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Old 01-20-2015, 06:40 AM   #42
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it shouldn't cost any more to build it right. Screws and staples in right places. Doors and drawers line up, wiring and plumbing correct, etc. Look at all the money they would save themselves in warranty repairs.
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Old 01-20-2015, 09:07 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
All these posts and i only know of one or two people that have or are currently talking to forest river managment about some of the things mentioned, and how to make it better for the customer.
Ependydad is working with some of the lines of FR with the management about how to make this better.
We can rant and rave on here all we want, but unless you work with the manuf. directly or calmly talk/work with them about handling this better, your wasting your time.
All this bashing may make you feel better, but it isn't going to solve a thing!
What do you suggest we do? Should we call Forest River and suggest we come there in person to work with them? You suggest that unless we work with the manufacturers DIRECTLY we are wasting our time. Ok I'm willing to do that. Can you give me some direction on how to accomplish this? Maybe we can hook up with Ependydad and work with FR management. I'm more than willing and capable.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:14 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeChuck View Post
What do you suggest we do? Should we call Forest River and suggest we come there in person to work with them? You suggest that unless we work with the manufacturers DIRECTLY we are wasting our time. Ok I'm willing to do that. Can you give me some direction on how to accomplish this? Maybe we can hook up with Ependydad and work with FR management. I'm more than willing and capable.

I'm not looking for a crusade. I have enough on my plate.

But, given my working relationship with Sabre- I can honestly say, they've taken some of my suggestions on how the warranty process can get better. Given what I have seen here, things have gotten better - still not perfect, but better.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:52 AM   #45
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Ependydad, I'm glad that Sabre is getting better. I have no complaints about their warranty process and never have. If you have been instrumental in improving this we all owe you a big thank you.
I was not "ranting, raving or bashing". I was just stating my opinion, and as it appears that of others also, about the lack of workmanship seen in many RVs coming out of the factories these days. I put that on management for not INSISTING on good workmanship. It is the responsibility of those in charge to give the assemblers and others the proper training and equipment to do the job right the first time and to help them to achieve that goal.The workers want to do a good job but if they see an emphasis on quantity not quality which I fear is happening in the RV industry today they will react accordingly. Just sayn'.
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:19 AM   #46
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The DW and I were considering trailer vs Class C before we opted for our 3011 Forester. I am happy with my choice but I made it with the understanding that the materials inside the rig had to be lighter weight and still cost effective. That is a tough combination to meet especially when many of the changes that might help with quality won't be readily seen on the new sales lot. My dogs and kids are hard on things and I know that over time I'll end up swapping out interior parts and I'm fine with that.

These cost about twice as much for half as much trailer.

Camplite Ultra Lightweight All Aluminum Travel Trailers | Livin' Lite RV
Camplite Ultra Lightweight All Aluminum Travel Trailer Floorplans | Livin' Lite RV


But they're all aluminum, half ton towable and built like tanks. So now the hard question. Are you willing to shell out 50K for a trailer with only one slide out and limited floor space? Probably not...

FYI if I wanted a class C with the same level of quality I would be looking at something like this:

2015 Born Free Majestic RV for sale in Tampa, FL. Stock# 1019045

At twice the price it was tough to justify at this time. Now later on when the wife and I full time then maybe the numbers will shift more in the favor of a custom build. I am not defending shoddy work per se. My point being that if you want a house on wheels that holds up to the over the road vibrations the same as or better than your stationary house then you will need to make some serious compromises either in $$$, size of the rig, options on the rig or a combination of the above. if you aren't willing to make those compromises then brush up on your DIY skills and expect some repairs.
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:46 PM   #47
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Buckey it is good that you stand by your comment, and I think that most people will stand by talk as well. What they will not do is put their money where their mouth is and buy quality.

Disagree with anyone who states quality should not cost more. Maybe in a perfect robotic level six sigma factory with ISO 9001 standard, but they had a recovery cost. Manufactures who still use humans are going to have errors, the faster you push them to roll out 5 a day instead of 4 you will drive human error based on process capability. Lose 365 new RVs to production In order relign your process, implement robotics to achieve process capability, they both will increase your base price out the door. Either would cause their current $60 a share stocks to drop very quickly unless the money from reduced production could be made up. People will buy the Thor product at the next dealer for 1000 less with the same plan. Heck people will do 5000 mile round trips to not buy from a quality dealer lol and get a better price.

Personally, I highly doubt if these factories are not already running some type of quality driven process. If their failure rate is above 5% I would be surprised which would be the reason why they are not fine tooth combing every RV out the door, it is cheaper to fix them later.
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:26 PM   #48
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Thought so.
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Old 01-20-2015, 04:05 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeChuck View Post
I stand by my original post. There is no excuse for poor workmanship. Geotex1, I also worked for the auto industry Ford Motor Company. 31 years. You are dead wrong at least about MANAGENENT and its responsibility for quality.
You're right - there is no excuse for poor workmanship, but I would totally agree with Geotex's comments. Building RV's has very little in common with the auto industry. We toured Ford's Dearborn F-150 plant 2 years ago - they make a $40,000 truck every 60 seconds - and every single process is standardized, error proofed, and engineered to be reliable. That cost of quality is spread over hundreds of thousands of vehicles.

An RV plant is making a tiny fraction of that volume. Processes and materials are not standardized to that extent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davel1971 View Post
it shouldn't cost any more to build it right. Screws and staples in right places. Doors and drawers line up, wiring and plumbing correct, etc. Look at all the money they would save themselves in warranty repairs.
It doesn't cost more to get staples or screws in the right spots - but when you have a bunch of tasks to do and limited time, errors happen. I doubt workers make those mistakes 100% of the time - the issues are more likely inconsistency. They get most of them right, but have a certain amount defects. Now - how they get out of the factory is a real issue, but using automotive-type quality techniques - like cnc saws to cut trim with laser inspection - isn't going to happen in an RV plant because of cost.

That's what it boils down to - as was said earlier - buyers talk a lot about quality - but most buyers actions' show that price is king.

In the entry level and mid-level travel trailer market - is there even one single brand that has hung their hat on quality and zero defects? Is there a brand that says "yeah, we cost 10% more, but our build quality is the best out there?"

Given that companies like FR and Thor have dozens of brands, says a lot that they don't have a single offering using that type of strategy.
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Old 01-20-2015, 04:42 PM   #50
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KMP44 I understand that. I worked for Ford Motor Co. for 31 years. I was just using that as a statement about quality not a comparison of the two industries. I was a supervisor in Quality Control and also manufacturing. I worked on the floor with the very people who make the Ford workforce. They are hard workers with a strong attitude about quality. As part of the management team it was an integral part of my job to nurture and encourage that attitude. Please don't attempt to lecture me about Fords quality or process control after taking one tour of a Ford plant.
This post is getting out of hand. I had no desire for that to happen. I was just stating my opinion. And that has not nor will it change. I would be happy if someone in F.R. management would read this and other post. Maybe they do.
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Old 01-20-2015, 05:58 PM   #51
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As a newbie looking at trailers, it seems that like with many other types of products, there is a direct relationship between quality and cost. I want to buy the biggest trailer I can for the least amount of money. Quality will suffer.

$30K buys a LOT of trailer. In looking at the the Airstreams, which are 2-3 times that, they are too cramped for the money. I'm not sure what the market is for $50-100K travel trailers. I would suspect folks with bigger budgets might be looking at motor homes.

But this still doesn't mean a strong QC program can't be implemented. I'm sure Forest River has one. Maybe it needs a little bit of work.
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:29 PM   #52
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They say confession is good for the soul… but we all know confessions and apologies are hard to deliver. I feel the need to confess and to apologize… so here goes.

I didn’t know until I read the posts in this topic that my buying a Forest River product with a 20+ item punch list was the cause of F.R.’s drop in quality. That’s right. I did it. I bought a unit with some “construction oversights” and, by that irresponsible act, told the factory that quality didn’t matter. So, I apologize to the rest of you. Had I known I was causing so many quality problems for my fellow Americans (and others, I assume), I would have kept my Keystone Cougar which I bought used and from which the quality wrinkles had already been ironed.

I had been planning to buy from another manufacturer… was a member of forums of other manufacturers so I didn’t read the warnings on this forum. I changed my mind and started looking for a different set of features which I found in my Wildcat. I chose the closest dealership which sold this model. I did not choose the dealership or my model because it was cheaper as some have charged. I chose it because of its features… or did I already say that? Cash was not king for me despite the broad brush charge.

It has been said here that it costs too much for RV assemblers to do the job right. Hmmmm. Boss to hand: “I’ll give you $11 extra if you will shoot two inch brad nails through the wood ‘picture frame’ trim on the front of both big slides and actually hit the backer board put there to support the trim.” [See pic.] Or would he have to offer the hand $14 extra per occurrence to do it right?

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Here’s another confession. I didn’t read all the definitive/exacting information on this forum such as “I highly doubt if these factories are not already running some type of quality driven process”. Those “facts” might have kept me from ruining everyone else’s chance at a quality product. And speaking of quality driven processes and especially the “fact” that “If their failure rate is above 5% I would be surprised which would be the reason why they are not fine tooth combing every RV out the door”. I don’t know about 5%, etc., but I DO know (no doubts or comments about being surprised) that the other 2 units like mine that showed up at my dealership while mine was being made ready had the same problem with the living room floor and the slide that dragged on it enough to cut the flooring. It seems odd that the 3 like units arriving at my dealership in a 1-week period would have the exact same “construction oversights” IF the factory line had a less than 5% “construction oversight” rate.


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Here’s another apology. I’m sorry I didn’t fly 950 miles to the F.R. Wildcat factory and show their management and workers how to improve their quality. I’ve managed quality improvement processes before. I have experience… but wait, that wasn’t in the RV manufacturing field so nothing I know would have counted. I DID contact the Wildcat warranty rep. I did send him emails containing pictures of some of my “construction oversights”. I DID recommend how recurring requests for warranty repairs for the same defect should be formally communicated to plant management. I DID give my dealership’s owner contact information to the sales side of Wildcat. He already had service/warranty information. I DID help the dealership’s service manager upgrade his process for communicating with F.R. warranty people. I DID send information to Wildcat Chris. I did communicate with the “Wildcat by Forest River” rep. on Facebook. I DID recommend that this person join our forum so he/she could read about “construction oversights” and dealership incompetencies and forward suggestions to plant management. He/she said he/she would. Did he/she? I don’t know. I hope at least 1-2 of these things count as working with the company and not just ranting.

As I said, I didn’t choose my unit because it was the cheapest. It cost almost exactly the same as a well-appointed truck which has had ZERO punch list items. I have not contacted the dealership or the manufacturer one time – oh, yeah, I forgot. It’s a truck and I should expect it to be perfect for the same money as a trailer which is not.

With all that said (yes, I know!), I wouldn’t sell my unit back to the dealership or any of you for what I paid. I accepted the well-meaning, well-stated advice of several on here that it wouldn’t help to complain to peer owners about the “construction oversights” in my trailer or about the glacier-slow appearance of the F.R. warranty process. So, believe it or not, this is not about my punch list. I ASSume my list is down to (almost) zero since my unit is at the dealership now. I love the features of my unit. This is primarily a rebuttal to those who ‘bash’ other people for being disappointed in the quality of their units; this is a rebuttal to those who say “you shouldn’t have been so cheap… you should have paid more”; this is a rebuttal to those who say it costs too much to have a technician crimp the ring connectors on battery cables such that they don’t just fall off.

Over and out, and to all a good night!
Dan


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Old 01-20-2015, 09:21 PM   #53
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To the OP, you picked a topic that has been beat to death most likly as much as, " the local dealer will not service me" and " gas or diesel". You did not expect responses and opinions like this???

Dan

Great three camper showed up with flaws. Could it not be logical that Jonny had a bad day and all three were built on the same day, as they came off the lot and filled the same order? Could this not be maybe 6 campers of a few hundred thousand of that model that had those defects, thus much less then 5%. But maybe time well served in pulling out a design flaw, not sure it's quality issue though.
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Old 01-20-2015, 09:46 PM   #54
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Brad nails could be a quality issue if they actually have someone who is not trained to drive one. Likely not, could be a skill issue though and thus quality, more likely a will or process capability issues. Process capability is the theme of many of the post that argue what is taking place wrong here, and you worked in quality so I know you understand that.

I am in Texas a bit and maybe we can talk campers over some ribs at kennys smokehouse some time.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:46 PM   #55
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Ok, I'm putting this post back up for reading but I think it has run its course and as such, I'm closing it. If your post was deleted, it was either viewed as inflammatory or was directly related to an inflammatory post. Please all remember to follow the play nice rule on these forums.
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