New owner - very disappointed

[D W]

Originally Posted by B47

Probably not - but shouldn't RV manufacturers at least try to make a perfect RV? I'm hearing a lot of replies on this thread saying it's not FRs problem that components don't work - it's the component manufacturers fault.

To that I say BS. It is FRs responsibility to make sure their suppliers provide a quality product. When you buy an automobile and the transmission doesn't work properly, you don't blame the transmission manufacturer,you blame the car manufacturer. It's the auto manufacturer name on the car,not the transmission manufacturer.

I'm certain a lot of you wouldn't mind if I never posted about this again,but it just doesn't make a bit of sense to give FR (and yes,they aren't the only one) a free pass on this poor poor attitude that it's not their fault. I'm willing to say that most RV buyers,including myself, don't know anything about the RV appliances and components their RV contains. They are buying the name and they deserve much much better than what a lot of them are getting.

Let the flaming begin - I don't care.

[TheWolfPaq82]

Got our new 304BS in April and I spent hours on the camper fixing bad electrical connections, sensor wires to waste tanks that were pulled so tight they were on the verge of breaking. Had to remount the 12V emergency brake, as that wire was pulled so tight, it was beginning to pull out of the splice connector it ran to. Hydraulic lines that were bouncing on the frame during travel and would eventually have failed. Fresh water tank was leaking in the driveway...one day after bringing it home. Prep crew did not use one inch of Teflon tape and any connections that required it. Pretty much have gone thru a 1lb box of fininshing nails reattaching trim that has already work thru the staples used by the factory. I'm looking to redo the main electrical connection underneath the front of trailer to get it all mounted into a "Weatherproof" box and not the standard junction box that is installed there now. FR has one goal...35 units a day off the factory floor...quality be damned.

[270S]

Originally Posted by twdenman

I guess there's no perfect RV.

Some may be missing the obvious. Most are not looking for the Rolls of the industry (a Perfect RV), rather just a Chevy, Honda, Ford, ... something that the manufacturer actually cares about doing right. Decent vinyl that holds up for a few years vs leather, lights that work, appliances that are not dead when doing PDI, broken / unpainted fiberglass, never installed or even provided ordered items, ... list is long.

Most of us are not children any more and have many life experiences. I have NEVER seen such blatant unprofessionalism, ignorance, bullyism, ... in my entire lifetime as I have experienced in my short 1 1/2 years in dealing with the RV industry. I am flabbergasted they are able to stay in business. As an OEM in the marine business, I thought they had some problems, but no pun intended, They walk on water compared to the RV industry.

I never thought I would experience something worse than WM or Washington to put it in clear prospective. It takes significant intentional effort to be that bad. Defend them all you want, there is no excuse for their "behavior". Just read these Forum posts.

[TheWolfPaq82]

Originally Posted by 270S

Some may be missing the obvious. Most are not looking for the Rolls of the industry (a Perfect RV), rather just a Chevy, Honda, Ford, ... something that the manufacturer actually cares about doing right. Decent vinyl that holds up for a few years vs leather, lights that work, appliances that are not dead when doing PDI, broken / unpainted fiberglass, never installed or even provided ordered items, ... list is long.

Most of us are not children any more and have many life experiences. I have NEVER seen such blatant unprofessionalism, ignorance, bullyism, ... in my entire lifetime as I have experienced in my short 1 1/2 years in dealing with the RV industry. I am flabbergasted they are able to stay in business. As an OEM in the marine business, I thought they had some problems, but no pun intended, They walk on water compared to the RV industry.

I never thought I would experience something worse than WM or Washington to put it in clear prospective. It takes significant intentional effort to be that bad. Defend them all you want, there is no excuse for their "behavior". Just read these Forum posts.

Amen brother. Didn't buy a Rolls, but didn't want a Yugo either. Just a little pride in craftsmanship. Maybe Warren Buffett need a letter from some FR owners.

[Canuckshaw]

Originally Posted by 270S

MY RV left the factory with so many problems and oversights , it is DISGUSTING. They never installed the Kitchen Table! How basic is that to miss? Did not do headlights, main door, tire pressure, correctly; attach couch to floor, cracked hood, missing electrical relays, vacuum sawdust, broken AC, .... For full details, view here RV and Travel Trailer Upgrades plus Off-Grid Capability Modifications and PDI

As a sales consultant in this awesome industry, I would suggest you bought from the wrong dealer. The items you've listed are things that we go over during the pre-delivery inspection. As well, before my customers come in to pick up their new (or used) trailer, I, my sales manager and our service manager walk through to make sure it is ready for delivery. Any deficiencies are noted and corrected. Having said that, we are all human and things do get missed. But nothing to the extent of your list.

I'm sorry you had those issues. Camping should be fun, not create additional stress to your life.

[Zoom]

Anyone ever watch videos on how BMW builds their cars? They do quality control during every step of the build. I know you may pay for that detail but at least I know everything has been checked before I pick it up. Also some here have used the argument that FR didn't make the product. I purchased a Ford F250 last year and if I ever have a problem I will go to Ford. Its not my problem if a supplier gave them a bad product. Its up to Ford to police their suppliers. Same with FR. Demand from their suppliers quality products! I believe if FR or their dealers actually inspected their products for issues most complaints would go away. I purchased my XLR in 2015 and it was very obvious that nothing had been tested before I picked it up. Fortunately my issues were minor and I did those repairs myself. Overall I am happy with my FR purchase but I might look at other brands if I ever trade.

[Zoom]

Originally Posted by Canuckshaw

As a sales consultant in this awesome industry, I would suggest you bought from the wrong dealer. The items you've listed are things that we go over during the pre-delivery inspection. As well, before my customers come in to pick up their new (or used) trailer, I, my sales manager and our service manager walk through to make sure it is ready for delivery. Any deficiencies are noted and corrected. Having said that, we are all human and things do get missed. But nothing to the extent of your list.

That sounds great but are you testing the water heater, A/C, all electrical outlets, and everything a camper would use on their first outing?

[TheWolfPaq82]

I also issues with some dealers and the volume of vehicles that are rolling off their lots. When they have a good weekend and sell 70+ units, they don't seem to care how they're rolling off the lot as to, how fast can we get them delivered and make extra money doing so. My 304BS was double my old trailer weight so I had to get a new WD hitch. The dealer sells the one I wanted and charge $700.00 for it. I looked on-line for the exact same hitch and found it for $250 cheaper. When I informed the salesman of my intent, he informed me that the dealership would not assemble or install or warranty any hitch not purchased from them. This hitch is the exact hitch they would take off their shelf, assemble then install on the camper and truck. I purchased their hitch and after leaving the dealership, the trailer didn't feel right. The trailer is twice the weight of my old Jayco, so I assumed it road different due to weight and 3/4 ton truck. I parked the trailer on the flat at a local school and did some measurements and discovered the hitch was setup completely wrong. Ball height was 2" higher that what it should've been and the tech hooked up the trunion chains wrong. Drove to house, grabbed tools needed, returned to lot and reset hitch assembly. Discovered wrong bolts were used to mount brackets to trailer frame and the two bolts holding ball assembly to shank were never torqued down and the head was bouncing on the shank. Unless it's a major warranty repair, I'll not be going back to the dealership anytime soon and will take care of all minor repairs myself.

[Canuckshaw]

Originally Posted by Zoom

That sounds great but are you testing the water heater, A/C, all electrical outlets, and everything a camper would use on their first outing?

Yes, and, though not a legal requirement on a new unit, we certify the propane system.

Again, I stress that I am possibly more human than most and, being human, I miss things and make mistakes. But, we actually try to deliver a quality trailer. I love when I get an email from a customer telling me how great their camping trip was or see pics posted on Facebook. Kinda strange, but I don't really like getting a call or email about a problem. I do my best to make sure those are few and far between. We have a great crew in our service and parts departments willing to work with our customers to resolve any issues as promptly as possible. Forest River's policy of purchasing local parts has really helped. Unless it's Forest River specific, we can source a part from a Canadian supplier rather than have to wait the two or more weeks it takes to get something from Indiana.

There will always be problems. It's how you, the owners, and we, your dealers, handle those problems.

I love this forum and the people who contribute. There are a few Negative Nellies, but most of the people are exceptionally helpful. Thank you for being here!

[B47]

Originally Posted by Canuckshaw

Yes, and, though not a legal requirement on a new unit, we certify the propane system.

Again, I stress that I am possibly more human than most and, being human, I miss things and make mistakes. But, we actually try to deliver a quality trailer. I love when I get an email from a customer telling me how great their camping trip was or see pics posted on Facebook. Kinda strange, but I don't really like getting a call or email about a problem. I do my best to make sure those are few and far between. We have a great crew in our service and parts departments willing to work with our customers to resolve any issues as promptly as possible. Forest River's policy of purchasing local parts has really helped. Unless it's Forest River specific, we can source a part from a Canadian supplier rather than have to wait the two or more weeks it takes to get something from Indiana.

There will always be problems. It's how you, the owners, and we, your dealers, handle those problems.

I love this forum and the people who contribute. There are a few Negative Nellies, but most of the people are exceptionally helpful. Thank you for being here!

Sorry Canuckshaw,but you are simply brushing aside the core problem that this thread is addressing with some words. You sound sincere,but we hear the same song from both the dealers and the vendors and the manufacturer.

1). Yes we are humans and humans make mistakes,but when humans make the same mistakes over and over again,then it's time to take another look at the mistakes and correct it or them. These problems didn't just yesterday.

2). I'm sure you don't like getting calls from customers about their problems,but put yourself in the customers shoes and I'm sure they don't like to call about their problems either.

3). Your statement about there will always problems leaves out the most important person - that being the manufacturer. See my #1.

4). Not sure about other people,but I resent being called a "Negative Nellie" when I complain about issues that shouldn't have ever happen.

[TheWolfPaq82]

If took my 304 back to dealer to have all the minor defects fixed...that I can do myself...I probably wouldn't see my trailer till the end of summer.

[pgandw]

A couple of things -

Quality has to be built in during assembly, not inspected in afterwards. Nobody can afford to inspect in quality, which is why RV owners get stuck fixing quality issues themselves.

For quality to be built in, the whole mindset has to change. The assembly line worker has to be able to stop the assembly line and take the time to point out that the part he was about to install isn't good enough, or the drawing he is using (of course most RV manufacturers don't even use drawings) is wrong, or he needs more time to do it right. Guess what? You will produce less units in a day. Guess what else? Your warranty costs will drop to near zero.

The procurement section has to be proactive to find a different source if a supplier isn't meeting quality standards. Tell Lippert to pound sand until they beef up their water tank supports. There are actually other welding shops besides Lippert that can build RV frames. Tell Dometic to redesign their fridge vents, or you will find somebody else.

The other part of supplier quality is feedback. Is information about water tanks falling out or supports bending ever getting back to Lippert? Or are the dealers sitting on the knowledge of what works and what doesn't work?

The US automotive industry was forced to implement true quality programs because the Japanese were eating their lunch with real quality programs. US boat manufacturing fell apart because nobody wanted to pay $20K+ for crap anymore. As baby boomers die out, the same thing is going to happen to the RV industry.

just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame

[B47]

Originally Posted by pgandw

A couple of things -

Quality has to be built in during assembly, not inspected in afterwards. Nobody can afford to inspect in quality, which is why RV owners get stuck fixing quality issues themselves.

For quality to be built in, the whole mindset has to change. The assembly line worker has to be able to stop the assembly line and take the time to point out that the part he was about to install isn't good enough, or the drawing he is using (of course most RV manufacturers don't even use drawings) is wrong, or he needs more time to do it right. Guess what? You will produce less units in a day. Guess what else? Your warranty costs will drop to near zero.

The procurement section has to be proactive to find a different source if a supplier isn't meeting quality standards. Tell Lippert to pound sand until they beef up their water tank supports. There are actually other welding shops besides Lippert that can build RV frames. Tell Dometic to redesign their fridge vents, or you will find somebody else.

The other part of supplier quality is feedback. Is information about water tanks falling out or supports bending ever getting back to Lippert? Or are the dealers sitting on the knowledge of what works and what doesn't work?

The US automotive industry was forced to implement true quality programs because the Japanese were eating their lunch with real quality programs. US boat manufacturing fell apart because nobody wanted to pay $20K+ for crap anymore. As baby boomers die out, the same thing is going to happen to the RV industry.

just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame

You Sir have just described in your first paragraph what a good Quality Assurance "QA" and Quality Control "QC" program is. The QA insures that the product meets all standards during the construction phase and the QC insures that the final product meets all standards after the completion is met.

Your second paragraph is right on the point. And well as your third paragraph.

In fact,your entire post is right to the point. Too bad a lot of the manufacturers,vendors,and dealers aren't listening.

A great post.

[270S]

Originally Posted by Canuckshaw

As a sales consultant in this awesome industry, I would suggest you bought from the wrong dealer. The items you've listed are things that we go over during the pre-delivery inspection. As well, before my customers come in to pick up their new (or used) trailer, I, my sales manager and our service manager walk through to make sure it is ready for delivery. Any deficiencies are noted and corrected. Having said that, we are all human and things do get missed. But nothing to the extent of your list.

I'm sorry you had those issues. Camping should be fun, not create additional stress to your life.

My response is based on being an OEM in the Maine industry and I along with every other there would be out of business if we behaved lile the RV industry!

Ditto all of the responses before I had a chance to reply. NO, I did not purchase from the wrong dealer! IMHO, based on my short 16 months observing the RV industry, the only thing a dealer provides is to take a cut from the final purchase price to line their pockets. So the right dealer is the lowest net Price - too long of a story for that one. As far as the non-existent or pathetic services they provide, I cross my fingers the owner is capable of doing it themselves, some with assistance here.

Just read this forum! It is not filled with all the joys of ownership and travels (some, but very little), it is mainly on solving problems that 1) should never have happened, 2) poorly designed systems or products, 3) wear and tear that is poorly serviced, 4) Complete pathetic or lack of warranty support , .....

Your reply is typical of what a Sales Rep would say.

[KyDan]

Originally Posted by 270S

My response is based on being an OEM in the Maine industry and I along with every other there would be out of business if we behaved lile the RV industry!

Ditto all of the responses before I had a chance to reply. NO, I did not purchase from the wrong dealer! IMHO, based on my short 16 months observing the RV industry, the only thing a dealer provides is to take a cut from the final purchase price to line their pockets. So the right dealer is the lowest net Price - too long of a story for that one. As far as the non-existent or pathetic services they provide, I cross my fingers the owner is capable of doing it themselves, some with assistance here.

Just read this forum! It is not filled with all the joys of ownership and travels (some, but very little), it is mainly on solving problems that 1) should never have happened, 2) poorly designed systems or products, 3) wear and tear that is poorly serviced, 4) Complete pathetic or lack of warranty support , .....

Your reply is typical of what a Sales Rep would say.

What a pessimist! My trailer had a slide motor fail 11 months into a 12 month warranty. My dealer fixed it and got it back to me in 2 weeks time. His service advisor is friendly and made me feel like he really wanted to help and that they as a dealership -family owned- really wanted us to be happy campers!
There are lots of others with similar stories.

My last 2 trailers were relatively trouble free. We used them each for about 4 years towing thousands of miles and traded them in as we moved up the scale in size.
I plan to keep my current one for the duration (read many years) of my future camping.

There are plenty of folks here who are happy owners and campers.
Sure the posts can seem weighted towards problems because people with problems come here looking for help. Lots of folks with no problems won't come here looking.

I admit it helps to be able to fix minor things and folks who don't know a speed wrench from a ratchet are at a disadvantage but blanket statements like yours above " 4) Complete pathetic or lack of warranty support , ....." simply aren't true.

[Canuckshaw]

Originally Posted by B47

Sorry Canuckshaw,but you are simply brushing aside the core problem that this thread is addressing with some words. You sound sincere,but we hear the same song from both the dealers and the vendors and the manufacturer.

1). Yes we are humans and humans make mistakes,but when humans make the same mistakes over and over again,then it's time to take another look at the mistakes and correct it or them. These problems didn't just yesterday.

2). I'm sure you don't like getting calls from customers about their problems,but put yourself in the customers shoes and I'm sure they don't like to call about their problems either.

3). Your statement about there will always problems leaves out the most important person - that being the manufacturer. See my #1.

4). Not sure about other people,but I resent being called a "Negative Nellie" when I complain about issues that shouldn't have ever happen.

B47,

You misinterpret my words and their meaning. I'll start at the bottom:

I'm sorry you feel you are one of the very few "Negative Nellies." People who complain about problems don't fall into this category. The people who have no valuable information to offer or add negative comments to other peoples offers of assistance are who I am referring to.

There will always be problems. I have never owned anything that was perfect. Well, I do have a coffee maker that I really like.

My statement about customer calls was meant to explain that what we do minimizes the unhappy customer calls. It's not that we don't receive them, we try our best to keep them few and far between. I'm a realist, I understand there will be problems, due to a million various causes. We do our best to catch them before a customer takes delivery of their RV. Apparently, not every dealer out there does.

The mistakes I was referring to was the odd time something we should have caught still gets by. We always make it right, but it's frustrating to me as well as my customers when it happens.

The post was intended to illustrate, not the fact that the trailers are not perfect, but that dealers who sell them need to accept some of the responsibility for the quality of the RV they are delivering to their customer. If there are quality issues known prior to delivery, the dealer should do everything they can to address and correct them.

The good news is that most do. There are millions of happy campers out there who have no issues with their units. And when they have an issue, they have someone they trust to assist them.

[Canuckshaw]

Originally Posted by 270S

My response is based on being an OEM in the Maine industry and I along with every other there would be out of business if we behaved lile the RV industry!

Ditto all of the responses before I had a chance to reply. NO, I did not purchase from the wrong dealer! IMHO, based on my short 16 months observing the RV industry, the only thing a dealer provides is to take a cut from the final purchase price to line their pockets. So the right dealer is the lowest net Price - too long of a story for that one. As far as the non-existent or pathetic services they provide, I cross my fingers the owner is capable of doing it themselves, some with assistance here.

Just read this forum! It is not filled with all the joys of ownership and travels (some, but very little), it is mainly on solving problems that 1) should never have happened, 2) poorly designed systems or products, 3) wear and tear that is poorly serviced, 4) Complete pathetic or lack of warranty support , .....

Your reply is typical of what a Sales Rep would say.

All I can say in response is, "WOW".

[B47]

Originally Posted by 270S

My response is based on being an OEM in the Maine industry and I along with every other there would be out of business if we behaved lile the RV industry!

Ditto all of the responses before I had a chance to reply. NO, I did not purchase from the wrong dealer! IMHO, based on my short 16 months observing the RV industry, the only thing a dealer provides is to take a cut from the final purchase price to line their pockets. So the right dealer is the lowest net Price - too long of a story for that one. As far as the non-existent or pathetic services they provide, I cross my fingers the owner is capable of doing it themselves, some with assistance here.

Just read this forum! It is not filled with all the joys of ownership and travels (some, but very little), it is mainly on solving problems that 1) should never have happened, 2) poorly designed systems or products, 3) wear and tear that is poorly serviced, 4) Complete pathetic or lack of warranty support , .....

Your reply is typical of what a Sales Rep would say.

Your third paragraph is right on and to the point.