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03-21-2018, 08:10 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Clarksville Va.
Posts: 10,422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper
A person didn't need this on a Open frame generator, only on the newer invertor type.
You need a bond plug on open frame generators, too.
use the by pass on a hard wire unit.
If you use the bypass on the EMS you defeat the low voltage and low frequency detection features. This could become a problem if for some reason the operation of the generator's motor begins to fail.
Remember this is only for pure sine wave invertor generators. Not the grounded open frame type.
This applies to both types of generators.
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Not really, most open frame generators are grounded and do not have floating ground like an inverter. So they EMS reads the ground. I would guess all generators are different, I'm only talking about the new inverter style, and yes you can use your by pass on a hard wire progressive, that takes it off line, what is your point. I know I have done it.
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Coachmen M/H
Concord
2018 / 300 DSC
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03-21-2018, 08:12 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Clarksville Va.
Posts: 10,422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper
A person didn't need this on a Open frame generator, only on the newer invertor type.
You need a bond plug on open frame generators, too.
use the by pass on a hard wire unit.
If you use the bypass on the EMS you defeat the low voltage and low frequency detection features. This could become a problem if for some reason the operation of the generator's motor begins to fail.
Remember this is only for pure sine wave invertor generators. Not the grounded open frame type.
This applies to both types of generators.
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And yes I know you lose the benefit of the system using the by pass. If you read this whole thread you will see I stated that days ago, but thanks
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Coachmen M/H
Concord
2018 / 300 DSC
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03-21-2018, 08:34 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Clarksville Va.
Posts: 10,422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch Doctor
And yes I know you lose the benefit of the system using the by pass. If you read this whole thread you will see I stated that days ago, but thanks
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Scrappy, read my post #10 it plainly states what you loose by using the by pass of the system, but as I also stated you would still get power, but I didn't think I had to say unprotected electrical system, if a person doesn't know that they should get a electrician. I think people are smarter then that and can read. But THANK YOU for clearing up any misinformation that you think is not clear, you have to just love this FORUM. To the OP, read or check y tube or find out if the brand your buying has a floating ground or bonded, you need a bonded ground for the EMS to read, or just take it out with the by pass which I do not recommend. But Progressive is right, it will work either way.
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Coachmen M/H
Concord
2018 / 300 DSC
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03-22-2018, 11:07 AM
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#24
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Just as confused as you
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: south central Wisconsin
Posts: 5,108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch Doctor
Not really, most open frame generators are grounded and do not have floating ground like an inverter. So they EMS reads the ground. I would guess all generators are different, I'm only talking about the new inverter style, and yes you can use your by pass on a hard wire progressive, that takes it off line, what is your point. I know I have done it.
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That's funny, I have a Champion model 46596 3500-4000 watt open frame generator and the owners manual says you need to use the bonding plug for use with RVs.In fact all the manuals for generators with the NEMA TT-30R outlet that I have read say the same.
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Richard & Jill
2014 Flagstaff 832IKBS Classic Super Lite
2018 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab Z71 4WD All Star Edition
Camping since 1989, Seasonal since 2000.
Car Shredder Op/Tech, Scrap Metal Recycling - retired
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03-22-2018, 12:01 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Clarksville Va.
Posts: 10,422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper
That's funny, I have a Champion model 46596 3500-4000 watt open frame generator and the owners manual says you need to use the bonding plug for use with RVs.In fact all the manuals for generators with the NEMA TT-30R outlet that I have read say the same.
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Read the forum thread called predator 3500, it states that the ground is bonded to the frame, and ready for RV use. NO bonding plug is needed it is not a floating ground. It is bonded to the frame. As I stated all generators are different and the OP needs to read his manual, but once again thanks for your correction,
__________________
Coachmen M/H
Concord
2018 / 300 DSC
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03-22-2018, 12:17 PM
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#26
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Just as confused as you
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: south central Wisconsin
Posts: 5,108
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My ground is bonded to the frame, there is a bolt for connecting the frame to a buried ground rod. I'm pretty sure all generators have this bolt otherwise there is a great possibility of getting shocked when you touch the frame. The neutral and ground are not bonded anywhere on the generator.
At the cg the ground-neutral bond is at the power pedestal or the main power distribution panel. I would guess at each pedestal as a safety precaution. In a house the ground-neutral bond is in the main breaker panel.
__________________
Richard & Jill
2014 Flagstaff 832IKBS Classic Super Lite
2018 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab Z71 4WD All Star Edition
Camping since 1989, Seasonal since 2000.
Car Shredder Op/Tech, Scrap Metal Recycling - retired
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03-22-2018, 12:20 PM
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#27
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Northeast Louisiana
Posts: 33,913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch Doctor
Read the forum thread called predator 3500, it states that the ground is bonded to the frame, and ready for RV use. NO bonding plug is needed it is not a floating ground. It is bonded to the frame. As I stated all generators are different and the OP needs to read his manual, but once again thanks for your correction,
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There appears to be some confusion here, and no need for anyone to get upset.
The ground-neutral bonding plug is needed due to a floating "neutral" unbonded from a ground. The ground being connected to the frame is not the reasoningg for the plug.
I'm going to copy over something from Mike Sokols website which explains this "floating neutral" in detail, I think Mike won't have a problem with us doing this, since he a member of our forums and a great guy all around. Here it is below. Please read it. The emboldened parts are my doing to point out something.
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Generator Ground-Neutral Bonding | No~Shock~Zone
ohn, all RV electrical systems are wired with their Ground and Neutral buses floated (un-bonded from each other). There’s lots of good reasons for this, most specifically that it’s an NEC and RVIA code requirement that the safety ground wire never carries any load current, and there can be only one Ground-To-Neutral bonding point in any distributed electrical system in the USA. Now, when you’re plugging your RV into power from a building (your garage outlet) or campground (pedestal outlet), your RV has its Ground and Neutral buses “bonded” (connected) together externally as part of the service panel’s earthed safety ground system. Again, lots of reasons for this, but the fact is you can only have a single G-N bonding point according to the National Electrical Code and RVIA building codes.
So when your RV is powered by its on-board generator, this G-N bond connection is created by the transfer switch set to generator mode. But when the transfer switch is set to receive shore power, your RV expects the external power source to bond its Ground and Neutral wires together. Now if you have an inline voltage monitor system from a manufacturer such as TRC or Progressive Industries, your voltage monitor is checking for the Neutral and Ground voltages to be very close to each other, probably within 3 volts or so. This works well if you’re plugged into shore power that’s properly grounded and bonded, but this voltage protector can be tripped off by plugging your RV shore power plug into a portable generator without an internal Ground-Neutral bond. If you don’t have a voltage protection device on your RV, then you may never know that your generator has a floated neutral (un-bonded G-N bus).
Contractor-type generators such as your Coleman 5000 are generally G-N bonded internally, which is why it runs your RV just fine. However, many portable inverter generators from companies such as Yamaha and Honda (your EU3000 specifically) have floated Neutrals (no internal Ground-Neutral Bond) since they expect an external G-N bond to happen somewhere else. And while RV-approved generators may have an internal G-N bond, it seems that many of the most popular portable inverter generators from Honda and Yamaha have floating neutrals.
Now I discussed this very point with Honda engineering , and they confirmed that their inverter generators have floated Neutrals and simply say that you should follow all local electrical codes for bonding-grounding. So your EU3000 isn’t providing the Ground-Neutral Bond that your RV requires to think it’s getting properly grounded power, while your Coleman 5000 has a Ground-Neutral bond already so it operates your RV properly. Seems crazy, but that appears to be the scenario.
It’s pretty simple to wire a special “Ground-Neutral Bond” jumper cable for your Honda or Yamaha generator which will allow you to power your RV through its voltage protection device. You can obtain or make a dummy 15 or 20 amp “Edison” plug with the Neutral (white) and Ground (green) screws jump together with a piece of 12 or 14 gauge wire (see photos below). This G-N jumper plug can be plugged into one of the generator’s unused 20-amp outlets, and the entire generator’s electrical system will be N-G bonded. You can then use the other 20-amp Edison outlet or the 30-amp outlet to power the RV.
Just be sure to mark this plug specifically for its intended purpose. It won’t really hurt anything if it’s plugged into a correctly wired home outlet, but it will create a secondary G-N bonding point that could induce ground loop currents and create hum or buzz in a sound system.
So this is a generator-only G-N bonding plug which should be only plugged into a portable generator while powering your RV.
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Also please watch Mikes great video again even if you have watched it before. He explains the "floating neutral" in it, along with what types/sizes generators to expect such on.
Progressive Industries keeps Mike's video below on their website here:
http://www.progressiveindustries.net/videos
Different generator manufacturers build theirs to different specs. Champion states their generator have their neutral unbonded from the ground (aka floating neutral):
http://help.championpowerequipment.c...generator-mean
__________________
2011 Flagstaff 831 RLBSS
A 72 hour hold in a psych unit is beginning to intrigue me as a potential vacation opportunity.
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03-22-2018, 12:41 PM
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#28
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Just as confused as you
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: south central Wisconsin
Posts: 5,108
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How did I know wmtire would come with the true story at some point in this discussion. Thank you, wmtire. I'm going to copy your post for future reference.
I'm not upset at anyone, just telling what I have found by reading manuals for various generator manufacturers. I never checked into contractor generators.
__________________
Richard & Jill
2014 Flagstaff 832IKBS Classic Super Lite
2018 Silverado 1500 Crew Cab Z71 4WD All Star Edition
Camping since 1989, Seasonal since 2000.
Car Shredder Op/Tech, Scrap Metal Recycling - retired
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03-22-2018, 12:48 PM
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#29
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Northeast Louisiana
Posts: 33,913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper
How did I know wmtire would come with the true story at some point in this discussion. Thank you, wmtire. I'm going to copy your post for future reference.
I'm not upset at anyone, just telling what I have found by reading manuals for various generator manufacturers. I never checked into contractor generators.
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You are welcome, and we are all here to learn/share. There is a list I have seen (and will see if I can find again) that tells a lot of the generators that have floating neutrals.
If I can find it, I'll post it here...unless someone else has such and can do the honors.
__________________
2011 Flagstaff 831 RLBSS
A 72 hour hold in a psych unit is beginning to intrigue me as a potential vacation opportunity.
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03-23-2018, 04:56 PM
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#30
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 80
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Update: I was able to create the appropriate plug and it looks like we have success. I haven't been able to test with the EMS yet however the tester now shows two amber lights which is what I was looking for. I will update once tested with the EMS.
Thx
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03-23-2018, 05:07 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Clarksville Va.
Posts: 10,422
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You got it now, I'll bet a 100.00 dollars your right, please send the money to my PayPal account. Now have a great camping season
Sent from my SM-N920V using Forest River Forums mobile app
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Coachmen M/H
Concord
2018 / 300 DSC
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03-23-2018, 05:21 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ependydad
One thing- my EMS wouldn’t let power in from the portable generator. Something about a floating neutral or ground or something. You have to made a special plug to plug into another outlet in the generator to make it all play nice.
I didn’t do that- I just bypassed the EMS.
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IBEW Local 139 | ibew139.com
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03-23-2018, 07:12 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Port Charlotte Fl/Hinsdale Ma
Posts: 4,823
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The bottom line is
You can power an RV without bonding the frame of the generator. People have been doing since the generator was invented. (it is better to bond it)
Your ems will not work properly if the ground/neutral is not bonded.
EMS was designed primarily for improper pedestal wiring and utility power systems monitoring. Not generators but they will work on one.
EMS will read and protect whatever is downstream of it. Not upstream.
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03-28-2018, 03:49 PM
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#34
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Northeast Louisiana
Posts: 33,913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie
The bottom line is
You can power an RV without bonding the frame of the generator. People have been doing since the generator was invented. (it is better to bond it)
Your ems will not work properly if the ground/neutral is not bonded.
EMS was designed primarily for improper pedestal wiring and utility power systems monitoring. Not generators but they will work on one.
EMS will read and protect whatever is downstream of it. Not upstream.
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Cavie, I need to clarify your comment I emboldened in red somewhat.
I've always understood "upstream" in electrical terms to means "towards the electric power plant" ...while "downstream" was " going away from the electric power plant".
Kinda like a lake/river with a dam on it. The dam holds up the water and protects everything downstream from flooding.
EMS, do indeed protect things like you stated, downstream from it (which is the RV)
However, what we need to point out is that it is "reading" problems that are upstream from the EMS. The way you worded it, it appears you are stating that the EMS monitors AND protects downstream.
To make sure the newer members fully understand we can word it better.... as in the EMS monitors the electrical situations upstream from it, then if all is good....allows power thru to the RV which is downstream from the EMS.
Simply put....The EMS is the dam holding back electrical problems/dangers from reaching the RV.
__________________
2011 Flagstaff 831 RLBSS
A 72 hour hold in a psych unit is beginning to intrigue me as a potential vacation opportunity.
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03-28-2018, 03:52 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
Posts: 515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ependydad
One thing- my EMS wouldn’t let power in from the portable generator. Something about a floating neutral or ground or something. You have to made a special plug to plug into another outlet in the generator to make it all play nice.
I didn’t do that- I just bypassed the EMS.
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Was really easy to make a neutral to ground plug so the generator can work with EMS.
I don't like to bypass the EMS if I can avoid it. Like the protection it offers.
__________________
Buzz & Jo Wolf
5er: 2018 Cedar Creek 29ik
TV: 2014 F350 Diesel
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03-28-2018, 04:04 PM
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#36
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Denver To Yuma In 90 Days
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Yuma, Arizona
Posts: 3,882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myxkp
A word of caution: watch out for GOM's (grumpy old men), they troll this forum and poo-poo anyone who doesn't do things their way.
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Not to mention that if somebody "has been doing it for 20 years with no problem" doesn't make it the right way to do it, either.
Free advice is worth every penny spent for it!
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03-28-2018, 04:07 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Port Charlotte Fl/Hinsdale Ma
Posts: 4,823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmtire
Cavie, I need to clarify your comment I emboldened in red somewhat.
I've always understood "upstream" in electrical terms to means "towards the electric power plant" ...while "downstream" was " going away from the electric power plant".
Kinda like a lake/river with a dam on it. The dam holds up the water and protects everything downstream from flooding.
EMS, do indeed protect things like you stated, downstream from it (which is the RV)
However, what we need to point out is that it is "reading" problems that are upstream from the EMS. The way you worded it, it appears you are stating that the EMS monitors AND protects downstream.
To make sure the newer members fully understand we can word it better.... as in the EMS monitors the electrical situations upstream from it, then if all is good....allows power thru to the RV which is downstream from the EMS.
Simply put....The EMS is the dam holding back electrical problems/dangers from reaching the RV.
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It reads the circuit and protects downstream equipment. Is that better.? I new what I said
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03-28-2018, 07:15 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 700
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Like the guy who has a blowout "Dang tire has been good for 20 years, why'd it fail me today?"
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04-02-2018, 02:44 PM
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#39
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 80
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Update: All worked great with the EMS and bonded neutral plug.
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04-02-2018, 02:48 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
Posts: 515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by immecor
Update: All worked great with the EMS and bonded neutral plug.
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Terrific. Those plugs are so handy.
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Buzz & Jo Wolf
5er: 2018 Cedar Creek 29ik
TV: 2014 F350 Diesel
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