Pretty Disappointed in Forest River Coachmen

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

I believe the 1/4 has been researched for quite some time, and though it may not fit your particular need, the next guy may be coming to the forum complaining that his coach ran out of gas because he ran his generator and couldn't get to a gas station with the fuel left. You say you get 10-11 mpg, but what if you're not on or near a highway? What if you're in a mountainous region of back roads and/or stop and go traffic? What if you're pulling a toad? You're argument on this matter doesn't hold up for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums

Another consideration, especially in the Gulf Coast region, is emergency evacuations (Hurricanes). If you have never been in one, you may find gas stations out of fuel, and then traffic is crawling. It may take you many hours to get somewhere that has fuel.

This is New Orleans with Katrina approaching, as you can see Xavier University buildings in the background.



and another Houston area hurricane traffic pic:



It's situations like this, when you need your RV the most, and you may be glad you had at LEAST a 1/4 tank of fuel. You may also notice all the vehicles in the medians that have run out of fuel, broke down, or wrecked.

Even New York ran out of fuel in places after Hurricane Sandy:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...aftermath.html

[davel1971]

RVs are built for the masses. They are designed to be the way most people would like them. If you want one built to order and have everything how you would like it, you have that option, but be prepared to dig deep.

[keith_h]

Originally Posted by jkot

Many of you may know it and many may not. But HUD is stepping into this. They are trying to legislate laws to force RV manufactures to follow better standards as some people are living in their RV's full-time and consider it "home".

On the other side, I understand there is push back on HUD or HUD is vacillating on their position that RVs are not intended for full-time and HUD has no business getting involved.

HUD has stepped in due the the rise of tiny-houses. These tiny-house (which are actual full-time homes) do not follow HUD guidelines and they avoid HUD regulations by putting tires on these homes so they can be moved. Existing regulations as I understand say that if a dwelling is moveable it is not subject to regulations establised by HUD.

HUD is really after "tiny home" folks who they feel are abusing this privilege afforded to RVers. But may in the end mean full-time RVing is off.

We don't live in our RV full-time (as we don't live in an RV park). We vacation in our RV and roam -- not all those who wander are lost, we
just like it that way.

The whole "Might be the end of full-time RV'ing" is nothing more than a scare tactic used by folks trying to promote themselves. The HUD work is an attempt to modernize the rules used for manufactured housing as with some RV's becoming more mobile home like and tiny-homes the current regulations no longer work. The mobile home and RV industries are firmly behind these changes. All the HUD manufactured home building rules really do is determine if you will be able to get a federally backed mortgage or participate in other federal/state home programs. You will also find that the insurance companies use the HUD designation to determine what type of a policy they will underwrite. The issue that tiny-homes have introduced is some come under local building codes, others might need to be under HUD rules and some don't conform to anything. Since many of these are built by individuals there is a no clarity on which is which and how to handle them. I also think the RV involvement has more to do with destination trailers as they are getting pretty close to what mobile homes were before 1976. For all practical purposes these never move and are usually in developments much like mobile homes. Here in NC they are popular for retirees who move to the coast. Again the current rules don't really cover this crossover area so they are looking into clarifying them.

[keith_h]

Originally Posted by wmtire

Another consideration, especially in the Gulf Coast region, is emergency evacuations (Hurricanes). If you have never been in one, you may find gas stations out of fuel, and then traffic is crawling. It may take you many hours to get somewhere that has fuel.

This is New Orleans with Katrina approaching, as you can see Xavier University buildings in the background.



and another Houston area hurricane traffic pic:



It's situations like this, when you need your RV the most, and you may be glad you had at LEAST a 1/4 tank of fuel. You may also notice all the vehicles in the medians that have run out of fuel, broke down, or wrecked.

Even New York ran out of fuel in places after Hurricane Sandy:

New York Fuel Runs on Empty in Hurricane Sandy Aftermath - The Daily Beast

Those pictures make me happy I have a 36 gallon tank. This might also be the perfect use for the auto start/stop on the truck. And yeah knowing I have the privy following behind me would be a real relief (sorry folks I couldn't help myself).

[jkot]

Well what if I have an emergency and need power but I didn't keep more than 1/4 full. Then what happens is I have enough gas to run generator for hours, but this "safety" feature is getting in the way.

[AquaMan]

Originally Posted by jkot

Well what if I have an emergency and need power but I didn't keep more than 1/4 full. Then what happens is I have enough gas to run generator for hours, but this "safety" feature is getting in the way.

Not sure what the "emergency" would be that you would need a generator vs just leaving in the RV. Although, my kids might possibly say that not having a TV, AC or microwave is an emergency, but everything else in my RV works without a generator, and I know I have enough gas to get to a gas station.

[B and B]

Originally Posted by jkot

Well what if I have an emergency and need power but I didn't keep more than 1/4 full. Then what happens is I have enough gas to run generator for hours, but this "safety" feature is getting in the way.

Being a Scout I am always prepared. The onus on being prepared means thinking about 'What if". We carry some disposable propane bottles, spare 20 lb used for campfire in a can, a camp stove, water packs to haul water, have fire starter and axe and saw, some tarps. I also find the closest Diesel station to where we are camping and fill up. I carry 10 gallons extra gas (premium stabilized fuel) and full generator tank for our trailer. This would last for 30 hrs using AC a whole lot longer with no AC.

Like Bocephus said a country boy can survive!

Here is your backup plan




I don't think Forest River or any other manufacture is going to change this method of fuel delivery. Most certainly give a call to custom fab shop and you can have what ever you want for a gas tank. Even add a extra tank if you want that 100% gas and no ethanol for the generator.

One thing I do not remember seeing was mention of dirt in the fuel. Most know a Onan generator is picky on fuel quality. 99% would not want to change filter of have the Generator fail due to this so 1/4 level take off is a good solution for most.

This argument is not a Quality issue with Forest River in so much a custom application you want.

[HappyGuy]

Hmmm modifying a gas tank is something most fabricators will run from. Most don't want to mess with dropping the tank, draining the fuel, filling the tank with a fluid to absorb the fumes, drain it, and then start working. The labor just to get ready to do the work could cost more than a new tank. Hey, it's a chance to increase the tank size beyond the legally restricted 50 gallons and set the generators siphon to the level you desire. Personally the jerry can would be a cheaper alternative in my opinion. There are things on my rig I would like to change and I'm not crazy about the build quality of the cabinets but weight is the big enemy there. Either I could fabricate some aluminum cabinets to keep the weight down and fight the squeaks and rattles going down the road, or pay a cabinet builder to swap in some high grade cabinets and kill my CCC. The reality is that the cabinets that are in the rig are probably the best balance between weight, comfort and durability for a C. If you throw cost into the equation then there probably isn't a better solution out there. Yes there are quality issues in these rigs, it's a never ending battle. If an RV manufacturer produced on the volume of an automobile manufacturer and could afford that level of automation automakers spent years developing then they could avoid those days when a man on the line has a bad day etc. etc. etc. The best they can do is put the rig through the QC grinder and send anything back that fails to pass muster. That's a double edged sword there too. The QC folks are told they should send a unit back but, intentional or otherwise, they are also under pressure to get the rig out the door and keep the line moving. Which pressure do you bow to? With orders backing up the pressure to keep things rolling ratchets up. The next step would be the dealer. So the QC guy didn't miss the roof seam because someone didn't walk around and bounce on the roof and then do the water test? They missed the mis-shot screws, this is what happened to my rig btw, then maybe the dealer could have caught it but the reality there was that dealers don't climb the ladder and bounce on the roof. So why the ramble? Even the most well meaning manufacturer and dealer can't always catch everything and even major issues will get through thanks to the "off day / new guy" affect. I am not defending missing screws, loose plumbing etc. the QC process should catch those issues but the perceived quality of these rigs when reading these forums should be taken with a grain of salt. Yes there are issues, yes every manufacturer has them, no there is not an excuse, but if you think that these forum posts are representative of the entire ownership experience for all Forest River owners then I believe you would be sorely mistaken. You hear from the unhappy folks but rarely from the happy ones. You often hear negative responses from folks learning the hobby or from folks that didn't read the manuals as well but please don't push that off on the manufacturer. When you buy a house you expect to have maintenance and an RV is the same way. If you don't want to do the work then either rent or don't bother. I am hopeful that manufacturers will continue to improve their quality control but as more gadgets get added the QC bar will move higher as issues become known. It's a never ending process and one that this forum can help drive if we choose to do so.

There you go. Summed up all the standard defense posts folks have been predicting...

[AquaMan]

Well said Happyguy.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by jkot

And if we as customers continue to accept shoddy workmanship and service then that's what we're going to get.

Change or die with the dinasoures

Not much you can do when your brain's the size of a walnut!

[Kevin & Judy]

When traveling always fill up around 1/2 tank, We always try to fill up before we get to a camp site. Just on the chance we need to run the generator for any extended time . when not using the MH and it is parked the tank is always full. Usually always used at least every 2 weeks, 3 sometimes. LOL

[Kenny kustom]

Originally Posted by Kevin & Judy

When traveling always fill up around 1/2 tank, We always try to fill up before we get to a camp site. Just on the chance we need to run the generator for any extended time . when not using the MH and it is parked the tank is always full. Usually always used at least every 2 weeks, 3 sometimes. LOL

Yea... Why not just fill the tank when you get to camp???

If the dip tube went to the bottom, then you would be crying, that the generator ran you out of fuel!
Can't win.


2016 Sabre 36QBOK
2015 Ram 3500 CUMMINS

[jkot]

I cannot read this. It has no paragraph spaces. Looks like a big blob of text.

Originally Posted by HappyGuy

Hmmm modifying a gas tank is something most fabricators will run from. Most don't want to mess with dropping the tank, draining the fuel, filling the tank with a fluid to absorb the fumes, drain it, and then start working. The labor just to get ready to do the work could cost more than a new tank. Hey, it's a chance to increase the tank size beyond the legally restricted 50 gallons and set the generators siphon to the level you desire. Personally the jerry can would be a cheaper alternative in my opinion. There are things on my rig I would like to change and I'm not crazy about the build quality of the cabinets but weight is the big enemy there. Either I could fabricate some aluminum cabinets to keep the weight down and fight the squeaks and rattles going down the road, or pay a cabinet builder to swap in some high grade cabinets and kill my CCC. The reality is that the cabinets that are in the rig are probably the best balance between weight, comfort and durability for a C. If you throw cost into the equation then there probably isn't a better solution out there. Yes there are quality issues in these rigs, it's a never ending battle. If an RV manufacturer produced on the volume of an automobile manufacturer and could afford that level of automation automakers spent years developing then they could avoid those days when a man on the line has a bad day etc. etc. etc. The best they can do is put the rig through the QC grinder and send anything back that fails to pass muster. That's a double edged sword there too. The QC folks are told they should send a unit back but, intentional or otherwise, they are also under pressure to get the rig out the door and keep the line moving. Which pressure do you bow to? With orders backing up the pressure to keep things rolling ratchets up. The next step would be the dealer. So the QC guy didn't miss the roof seam because someone didn't walk around and bounce on the roof and then do the water test? They missed the mis-shot screws, this is what happened to my rig btw, then maybe the dealer could have caught it but the reality there was that dealers don't climb the ladder and bounce on the roof. So why the ramble? Even the most well meaning manufacturer and dealer can't always catch everything and even major issues will get through thanks to the "off day / new guy" affect. I am not defending missing screws, loose plumbing etc. the QC process should catch those issues but the perceived quality of these rigs when reading these forums should be taken with a grain of salt. Yes there are issues, yes every manufacturer has them, no there is not an excuse, but if you think that these forum posts are representative of the entire ownership experience for all Forest River owners then I believe you would be sorely mistaken. You hear from the unhappy folks but rarely from the happy ones. You often hear negative responses from folks learning the hobby or from folks that didn't read the manuals as well but please don't push that off on the manufacturer. When you buy a house you expect to have maintenance and an RV is the same way. If you don't want to do the work then either rent or don't bother. I am hopeful that manufacturers will continue to improve their quality control but as more gadgets get added the QC bar will move higher as issues become known. It's a never ending process and one that this forum can help drive if we choose to do so.

There you go. Summed up all the standard defense posts folks have been predicting...

[jkot]

My. point is simply this. The times are changing. Maybe 20 years ago 1/4 tank made sense. But doubt it today.

20 years ago, 1/4 tank would be 8 gallons because weren't gas tanks on RVs smaller -- and in general weren't RVs smaller? And RVs got about 5 - 8 mpg. So the spare you were given 20 years ago was maybe 60 miles.

Today with bigger gas tanks and better engines, what you need to get 60 miles (which was fine in those days). You sure don't need 1/4 tank. I don't. An 1/8 of tank is plenty and then some at 10 - 11 mpg. And 1/4 tank is about 12 gallons and that still leaves me about 8 gallon reserve.
An 1/8 is 6 gallons + 8 gallon reserve.

That's 14 gallons (even at 1/8) gets me 140 miles. So if 60 miles was good enough 20 years ago, isn't 140 miles at 1/8 gallon more than good enough today?

Think the principal behind something not that this how it's always been done. The latter is called NIH - not invented here.

If you haven't read an earlier thread where I responded to this, I gave an example:

Little girl goes to her mom and says "mom, why do we cut off the turkey legs before we bake it?"

"I don't know, sweetheart. That's the way grandma did it. Let's ask grandma."

"Grandma, why do we cut the legs of the turkey before we bake it."

"I don't know," says the grandmother. Great grandma always did it that way. Let's call and ask Great grandma."

"Great grandma, we're call to find out why we always cut off the legs off the turkey before we bake it".

Great grandma "because the pot wasn't big enough so I cut off the legs to make it fit".

So don't just say lets cut off the legs. There is a reason behind things. The reason behind 1/4 tank 20 years ago was 60 mile spare. And 1/8 tank gets me 140 miles. Why do I need to "keep cutting off the legs off the turkey to bake it"? I know better. I just need 1/8 of tank.

The bottom line is that RV manufactures and many RVers have just accepted the status quo. And the status quo is out-of-date. The people of days-of-old were trying to solver problems. They thought about it and came up with solutions.

We don't even want to think about the problem, let alone come up with a solution. We just want to do what was done 20 years ago, because that's the way it's always been done. LAZY MINDEDNESS in my book.

By the way, DOT only requires a 30 mile reserve. That means if I want to remain DOT compliant for "safety" and getting to "civilization" all I would need is the 6 - 8 gallons in my reserve tank. Also, if safety is such a concern why not just put a buzzer in so that when you get to 1/4 tank the buzzer goes off. But it let's you use to your hearts delight.

I don't want a machine doing my thinking for me. I want the machine to report to me. I'll decide what makes sense in the situation not the machine. I'm smarter that it is by a long-shot.

p.s.
"When you stop to think, don't forget to start back again"

Originally Posted by Kenny kustom

Yea... Why not just fill the tank when you get to camp???

If the dip tube went to the bottom, then you would be crying, that the generator ran you out of fuel!
Can't win.


2016 Sabre 36QBOK
2015 Ram 3500 CUMMINS

[B and B]

Originally Posted by jkot

My. point is simply this. The times are changing. Maybe 20 years ago 1/4 tank made sense. But doubt it today.

20 years ago, 1/4 tank would be 8 gallons because weren't gas tanks on RVs smaller -- and in general weren't RVs smaller? And RVs got about 5 - 8 mpg. So the spare you were given 20 years ago was maybe 60 miles.

Today with bigger gas tanks and better engines, what you need to get 60 miles (which was fine in those days). You sure don't need 1/4 tank. I don't. An 1/8 of tank is plenty and then some at 10 - 11 mpg. And 1/4 tank is about 12 gallons and that still leaves me about 8 gallon reserve.
An 1/8 is 6 gallons + 8 gallon reserve.

That's 14 gallons (even at 1/8) gets me 140 miles. So if 60 miles was good enough 20 years ago, isn't 140 miles at 1/8 gallon more than good enough today?

Think the principal behind something not that this how it's always been done. The latter is called NIH - not invented here.

If you haven't read an earlier thread where I responded to this, I gave an example:

Little girl goes to her mom and says "mom, why do we cut off the turkey legs before we bake it?"

"I don't know, sweetheart. That's the way grandma did it. Let's ask grandma."

"Grandma, why do we cut the legs of the turkey before we bake it."

"I don't know," says the grandmother. Great grandma always did it that way. Let's call and ask Great grandma."

"Great grandma, we're call to find out why we always cut off the legs off the turkey before we bake it".

Great grandma "because the pot wasn't big enough so I cut off the legs to make it fit".

So don't just say lets cut off the legs. There is a reason behind things. The reason behind 1/4 tank 20 years ago was 60 mile spare. And 1/8 tank gets me 140 miles. Why do I need to "keep cutting off the legs off the turkey to bake it"? I know better. I just need 1/8 of tank.

The bottom line is that RV manufactures and many RVers have just accepted the status quo. And the status quo is out-of-date. The people of days-of-old were trying to solver problems. They thought about it and came up with solutions.

We don't even want to think about the problem, let alone come up with a solution. We just want to do what was done 20 years ago, because that's the way it's always been done. LAZY MINDEDNESS in my book.

By the way, DOT only requires a 30 mile reserve. That means if I want to remain DOT compliant for "safety" and getting to "civilization" all I would need is the 6 - 8 gallons in my reserve tank. Also, if safety is such a concern why not just put a buzzer in so that when you get to 1/4 tank the buzzer goes off. But it let's you use to your hearts delight.

I don't want a machine doing my thinking for me. I want the machine to report to me. I'll decide what makes sense in the situation not the machine. I'm smarter that it is by a long-shot.

p.s.
"When you stop to think, don't forget to start back again"

You sound a lot like a troll on another thread last week just posing questions for the sake of personal entertainment. Many have provided reasonable responses to your questions.

This is actually your problem as you raised it. I would suggest you contact the manufacturer who can direct you to the chassis supplier. Your answer might be there rather than here... Possibly.

Or simply put gas in the tank.

[wmtire]

This has become a circle argument, and it's time to stop the merry go around for forum harmony's sake. There have been valid points made and countered. There is nothing else that our membership can do to alleviate the fuel reserve requirement. These are things that will need to be taken up with the generator manufacturers and the RV industry, along with the rules they must adhere to according to RVIA codes.

Let's spend our energies in helping others whose problems we are potentially in a position to solve.