Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2014, 01:22 PM   #51
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowracer View Post
Light duty pickup truck suspensions are designed first and foremost for ride quality. They spend 90 or so percent of their lives doing non-hauling duty like commuting, road trips, and grocery getting. There's a reason you cant find a solid axle half-ton truck any more. Or even leaf springs. They are (erroneously IMHO) given inflated towing figures simply as a marketing tool, assuming ideal conditions. Tow #10,500 with a new F-150 and lose your trailer brakes. Let me know how that works out for you. with luck, you will have just enough margin of safety left to be able to select what you crash into.

Commercial heavy duty trucks are engineered from the get-go with towing/hauling capacity as the most important consideration. ride quality is way down the list. That's why a 20K tractor can gross out at 80k loaded with a modicum of safety. but you know what, they still wreck all the time.

I'm sorry, but my old leaf spring, solid axle 1977 Chevy K10 (designed when most truck were used for work, not commuting) would be a hell of a lot safer towing at its rated rated capacity of 8k than a new F-150 would be at its rated capacity of 10,500. Hell, it'd still be safer than the f150 at 8,000 pounds.

I'm not saying that there aint people towing 10k with a half-ton truck with no issues. I'm sure it happens all the time. I'm just saying that when it goes bad, the margin of safety just aint there anymore and it goes really bad. Hence the pictures at the start of this post.

tim
First of all- I agree with your assessment of the tractor versus a half ton truck as far as intended purpose and design. That is why half tons are rated to tow 1.5 times their weight instead of 4 times their weight. To say they can't even do THAT safely is erroneous, IMHO. And your statement about leaf springs is false. The only half ton I am aware of that uses coils instead of leafs is the Dodge- and the payload and towing numbers reflect that. As far as losing brakes at 10.5K, I would assume it would be very similar to losing brakes on a 16K trailer with a 1 ton. The truck weighs ~30% more and so does the camper, so , yeah I think it would be about the same. Also- you reference older trucks being more capable- I don't think many would agree with that statement. First of all, I believe, (but am open to being corrected since most of my knowledge in older trucks involves the 67-72 Ford trucks) that all trucks of that era use a C-Clip design to retain the axles. This means that if you break an axle, the wheel, tire, and remainder of the axle will be free to come out of the axle tube. The only type of axle that I am aware of that was designed differently was the Ford 9" (used in the 67-72 F100's) which used a pressed on bearing with a backing plate that mounted to the axle housing and would retain the entire assembly in the event you broke an axle. If by "solid axle" you mean non IRS- I don't know of any trucks using IRS. Also, your 77 would have had drum brakes- much less capable than disk. In addition, your frame would have been a much weaker C channel rather than todays fully boxed frames. So, I'm sorry, but I'd go with a newer vehicle for towing heavy loads any day of the week.
__________________

__________________
dustman_stx is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 01:43 PM   #52
Senior Member
 
puff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Campbell River
Posts: 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowracer View Post
Light duty pickup truck suspensions are designed first and foremost for ride quality. They spend 90 or so percent of their lives doing non-hauling duty like commuting, road trips, and grocery getting. There's a reason you cant find a solid axle half-ton truck any more. Or even leaf springs. They are (erroneously IMHO) given inflated towing figures simply as a marketing tool, assuming ideal conditions. Tow #10,500 with a new F-150 and lose your trailer brakes. Let me know how that works out for you. with luck, you will have just enough margin of safety left to be able to select what you crash into.

Commercial heavy duty trucks are engineered from the get-go with towing/hauling capacity as the most important consideration. ride quality is way down the list. That's why a 20K tractor can gross out at 80k loaded with a modicum of safety. but you know what, they still wreck all the time.

I'm sorry, but my old leaf spring, solid axle 1977 Chevy K10 (designed when most truck were used for work, not commuting) would be a hell of a lot safer towing at its rated rated capacity of 8k than a new F-150 would be at its rated capacity of 10,500. Hell, it'd still be safer than the f150 at 8,000 pounds.

I'm not saying that there aint people towing 10k with a half-ton truck with no issues. I'm sure it happens all the time. I'm just saying that when it goes bad, the margin of safety just aint there anymore and it goes really bad. Hence the pictures at the start of this post.

tim

X2
__________________

__________________
Glen & Robyn (A.K.A. Puff & Crickit) Full Timers..


2006 F350 6.0 with 3.73 gears, 4X4, Extra-Cab Long Box, Oil/Tranny/P.S. Coolers. Coolant filter. SCT Livewire.
2011 Cedar Creek 36RE, Auto levelers + too much to list..!
puff is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 02:11 PM   #53
Infractee
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowracer View Post
Light duty pickup truck suspensions are designed first and foremost for ride quality. They spend 90 or so percent of their lives doing non-hauling duty like commuting, road trips, and grocery getting. There's a reason you cant find a solid axle half-ton truck any more. Or even leaf springs. They are (erroneously IMHO) given inflated towing figures simply as a marketing tool, assuming ideal conditions. Tow #10,500 with a new F-150 and lose your trailer brakes. Let me know how that works out for you. with luck, you will have just enough margin of safety left to be able to select what you crash into.

Commercial heavy duty trucks are engineered from the get-go with towing/hauling capacity as the most important consideration. ride quality is way down the list. That's why a 20K tractor can gross out at 80k loaded with a modicum of safety. but you know what, they still wreck all the time.

I'm sorry, but my old leaf spring, solid axle 1977 Chevy K10 (designed when most truck were used for work, not commuting) would be a hell of a lot safer towing at its rated rated capacity of 8k than a new F-150 would be at its rated capacity of 10,500. Hell, it'd still be safer than the f150 at 8,000 pounds.

I'm not saying that there aint people towing 10k with a half-ton truck with no issues. I'm sure it happens all the time. I'm just saying that when it goes bad, the margin of safety just aint there anymore and it goes really bad. Hence the pictures at the start of this post.

tim

We are gonna have to agree to disagree!

IMHO and IMOE;

P/U trucks now are designed explicitly with towing/hauling in mind, I know everybody, including me, suffers from G.O.D.S. occasionally. (Good Old Days Syndrome) But to suggest that a 37 YO truck could tow just as safely as a modern one is flat out ridonkulous. ABS, trailer sway control, 4 wheel disk brakes, ECM's, modern suspension systems and designs, integrated digital and proportional brake controllers, fully boxed frames, built in class IV receivers, not to mention a shiteload more HP and TQ.
It is these reasons and MANY more why a modern 1/2 ton can tow 5 tons with no problem* and a 75 chebby C10 would just crap itself if you hooked up 5 tons to it.

(Not bashing Chebby's, just an example)


*If properly equipped and driven

Again, IMHO and IMOE.
__________________
RhoZeta is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 03:06 PM   #54
cogito ergo moo
 
Cowracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Imperial (St. Louis) MO
Posts: 2,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by RhoZeta View Post
We are gonna have to agree to disagree!

IMHO and IMOE;

P/U trucks now are designed explicitly with towing/hauling in mind, I know everybody, including me, suffers from G.O.D.S. occasionally. (Good Old Days Syndrome) But to suggest that a 37 YO truck could tow just as safely as a modern one is flat out ridonkulous. ABS, trailer sway control, 4 wheel disk brakes, ECM's, modern suspension systems and designs, integrated digital and proportional brake controllers, fully boxed frames, built in class IV receivers, not to mention a shiteload more HP and TQ.
It is these reasons and MANY more why a modern 1/2 ton can tow 5 tons with no problem* and a 75 chebby C10 would just crap itself if you hooked up 5 tons to it.

(Not bashing Chebby's, just an example)


*If properly equipped and driven, in ideal weather conditions, within reasonable and prudent speeds, on roads with no traffic.

Again, IMHO and IMOE.
Fixed it for ya.

Look... this is America. If GM or Ford or Dodge says its ok to hook up a fully loaded V-Cross Platinum 32VRLS to your shiny new half-ton truck, and yank it down the interstate at 70 MPH without a care in the world, who am I to say otherwise?

But for me personally? I wouldn't feel safe within a quarter mile of such a rig. All I am saying is that the technological gains over the last few years are not what is driving the inflated max towing ratings. Marketing is, pure and simple. And I would bet that a 95% of the new F150s and GM 1500's sold this year are equipped to tow about 8000# or less.

Tim

P.S. I'd lay any amount of money you care to wager that the 383 I had in the old 77 would out HP, out lb-ft and sure as hell out-pull any motor Ford cares to put in a new F-150, including the raptor. (Hint: Nothing stays stock around me for long )
__________________
FROG Member MO-0008-571 Since 20124444444444My Project Blog: https://cowracer.blogspot.com/
2016
Rockwood Signature Ultralite 8329ss44444444"And Cowracer is right..." - Bikendan
Rallies Attended:
Cowracer is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 03:24 PM   #55
NELA
 
Weezer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,220
Cargo Carrying Capacity 3,501 lbs.

Exterior Length 35' 9"

__________________

If age is a state of mind, and I've lost my mind, I'm AGELESS, right?
Give me 40 acres and I'll turn this rig around:
Flagstaff 5er 2014 8528 IKWS, Platinum Package, Regency Interior "Buffy"
F250 Super Duty 2013 Tuxedo Black "Biff"
Days camped 2014: 30
Weezer is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 03:50 PM   #56
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowracer View Post
Fixed it for ya.

Look... this is America. If GM or Ford or Dodge says its ok to hook up a fully loaded V-Cross Platinum 32VRLS to your shiny new half-ton truck, and yank it down the interstate at 70 MPH without a care in the world, who am I to say otherwise?

But for me personally? I wouldn't feel safe within a quarter mile of such a rig. All I am saying is that the technological gains over the last few years are not what is driving the inflated max towing ratings. Marketing is, pure and simple. And I would bet that a 95% of the new F150s and GM 1500's sold this year are equipped to tow about 8000# or less.

Tim

P.S. I'd lay any amount of money you care to wager that the 383 I had in the old 77 would out HP, out lb-ft and sure as hell out-pull any motor Ford cares to put in a new F-150, including the raptor. (Hint: Nothing stays stock around me for long )
You can't compare your non-stock stroked 350 (383) to current stock trucks. I'll guarantee you there are MANY modded half tons running around now-a-days that would donkey stomp your old Chevy. Just because 95% of the 1/2 tons are rated at 8k or less doesn't mean they can't be properly equipped to handle more than that. I'm guessing you haven't towed anything heavy with a new 1/2 ton. If that's the case I don't really see how you can make any type of statement about the capabilities of current production half tons. And where did you get the "yank it down the interstate at 70 MPH without a care in the world" statement from? Do you really know how fast he was traveling?
__________________
dustman_stx is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 03:54 PM   #57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by RhoZeta View Post
We are gonna have to agree to disagree!

IMHO and IMOE;

P/U trucks now are designed explicitly with towing/hauling in mind, I know everybody, including me, suffers from G.O.D.S. occasionally. (Good Old Days Syndrome) But to suggest that a 37 YO truck could tow just as safely as a modern one is flat out ridonkulous. ABS, trailer sway control, 4 wheel disk brakes, ECM's, modern suspension systems and designs, integrated digital and proportional brake controllers, fully boxed frames, built in class IV receivers, not to mention a shiteload more HP and TQ.
It is these reasons and MANY more why a modern 1/2 ton can tow 5 tons with no problem* and a 75 chebby C10 would just crap itself if you hooked up 5 tons to it.

(Not bashing Chebby's, just an example)


*If properly equipped and driven

Again, IMHO and IMOE.
X2
__________________
dustman_stx is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 03:57 PM   #58
cogito ergo moo
 
Cowracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Imperial (St. Louis) MO
Posts: 2,326
OK dustman. You are right and I'm wrong. You win 10,000 internets.

Its perfectly safe to tow any load with a modern truck, as technology is foolproof and never fails.

Tim
__________________
FROG Member MO-0008-571 Since 20124444444444My Project Blog: https://cowracer.blogspot.com/
2016
Rockwood Signature Ultralite 8329ss44444444"And Cowracer is right..." - Bikendan
Rallies Attended:
Cowracer is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:02 PM   #59
Senior Member
 
dannyabear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 480
Every year, here in BR, I go watch about 50 'mentaliy challanged' kids pull a 737 airpane with a 2" diameter rope. It is a fund raiser for their workshop. Just because that can pull it doesn't mean they can stop it or controll it if it goes the wrong way.
I'll agree that a 1500 silverado can pull around 9000# because I towed a 8200# loaded down KZ3102 for a couple of years, but I sure wasn't confortable doing it and upgraded as soon as I could. Much better wirh 2500 (1500HD)
__________________
Danny & Darlene
2002 Silverado 1500HD
2014 Rockwood 2703WS 'Emerald Pkg'
Days camped 2015=42 2014=48 2013=41 2012=47 2011=18
dannyabear is offline  
Old 01-16-2014, 04:06 PM   #60
Senior Member
 
ryand's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Metro St. Louis Area
Posts: 1,193
How do I win 10,000 internets? I could really use em.

I think everyone has valid point here. They are all plausible but unfortunately unless this guy is a member her and wants to let us know....we will never find out.


Back on track....Check your hitch work, check your weights, know your limits.
__________________

__________________
2011 Coachmen Catalina 28DDS
2015 Ram Bighorn 2500 6.4L
http://www.ryandethrow.wordpress.com
Nights Camped 2016: 32
ryand is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
v-cross

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




ForestRiverForums.com is not in any way associated with Forest River, Inc. or its associated RV manufacturing divisions.


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:04 PM.