Warranty Woes and Not Buying Local - heads up to first-time buyers

[rocco52]

Originally Posted by upflying

Odd how the RV industry does not use the painless car dealer model for warranty claims. This is 2019, not 1949.

I was thinking the same thing. I am in the car business and we want as much Service business as we can get! The Service and Parts Departments pay the bills and gets the Dealership through the lean sales times of the year.

[jhudson13]

Oh do I feel everyone's pain. We tried so hard to buy from our local FR dealer but he does not carry any Azdel products. This was very important to us. So we went to the hershey show this year just to look and of course found one we liked at a very good price. Now that we have a few warranty issues I called my local FR dealer and he charges $250 to do any warranty work because I didn't buy from him. What a racket!!

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by Scotrv

I think a lot of confusion surrounds terminology and what it means to a dealer and what it means to the customer. When a new unit arrives the sales dept. does a quick look over of the unit to make sure there are not any evident flaws and that the ordered options are on it. If we see loose trim etc. of course we are going to fix that before we put it on our lot for sale. These fixes would be performed under a warranty claim.

Sold to us is when a customer wants the trailer. Sold to you is when you pick it up. PDI is done before the customer takes delivery,(at my dealership this is after an intent to buy agreement is in place) needed repairs/adjustments are taken care of before the customer takes delivery. On the day of pick up the customer receives an Orientation with a Technician.

PDI is not done before an agreement to purchase is in place. Ever go out to your camper and find something not working even though it did last time you went out? An RV can sit on our lot for one day or six months before a customer wants it. If we did the PDI when we received it, we might find problems during the Orientation and we want the Orientation to go smoothly with everything working and correct.

Once again, there is no $ allowance from Forest River to a dealer for performing a PDI nor for checking the unit in. I know it doesn't matter to you the customer, nor should it. I just want people to know that the cost of the PDI is totally on the dealer. PDI is not the warranty repairs either. PDI is only the inspection of the units systems and overall condition to identify any needed repairs or adjustments. A PDI can take anywhere from 3 - 5 hours depending on the complexity of the unit. Any deficiencies are repaired under a warranty claim.

I have just tried to explain how it works as I consistently see posts with comments about what Forest River pays the dealer for with incorrect information along with what a dealership does or doesn't do.

Scot, you make a good argument for your current process...but here's where it falls apart.

You defer the inspection until the customer signs a contract and is ready to buy, right?

And then you do an inspection, just prior to the customer's orientation and pickup, right?

And you find that a part or component is broken and there's none in stock. What do you do?
--Get one sent overnight?
--Cannibalize one from another trailer, pushing the problem downstream (and doubling your labor costs-- two remove/replaces vs. one)?*
--Tell the customer something's broken and you'll fix it later, but he must pay now?
--Call the customer and tell him the orientation and pickup are delayed?

I don't believe any of these options will "delight the customer."

*You've mentioned that you don't do a complete inspection at your receipt because "If we did the PDI when we received it, we might find problems during the Orientation..." You don't suppose some of those problems are related to cannibalizing the unit after receipt to fix some other unit, do you?

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by jhudson13

Oh do I feel everyone's pain. We tried so hard to buy from our local FR dealer but he does not carry any Azdel products. This was very important to us. So we went to the hershey show this year just to look and of course found one we liked at a very good price. Now that we have a few warranty issues I called my local FR dealer and he charges $250 to do any warranty work because I didn't buy from him. What a racket!!

Did you happen to read posts #6 and #16? You can use independent RV shops or mobile RV tech. You just have to get pre-approval from FR and be willing to be reimbursed. FR found us a local dealer willing to do the warranty work and they didn't even sell any Forest River products.

[jhudson13]

yes I saw all of the posts but none of those in my area.

[NXR]

Originally Posted by rocco52

I was thinking the same thing. I am in the car business and we want as much Service business as we can get! The Service and Parts Departments pay the bills and gets the Dealership through the lean sales times of the year.

So something I did when I was in the service business was I monitored all manufacturer service bulletins and proactively let my customers know when something was released that potentially affected them, even if not covered by warranty and was "optional". It got me a lot of service business I probably would not otherwise see.

While that could be tough to do for a car dealer because of the volume of cars sold, it shouldn't be too difficult for an RV dealer. I learned people are willing to spend money proactively to spare a breakdown later.

FWIW,

Ray

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by NXR

So something I did when I was in the service business was I monitored all manufacturer service bulletins and proactively let my customers know when something was released that potentially affected them, even if not covered by warranty and was "optional". It got me a lot of service business I probably would not otherwise see.

While that could be tough to do for a car dealer because of the volume of cars sold, it shouldn't be too difficult for an RV dealer. I learned people are willing to spend money proactively to spare a breakdown later.

FWIW,

Ray

Interesting that you would say that, Ray. In one of the Dynamax threads a while back, the Dynamx GM responded to a complaint about a piece of electronics . The fault was somewhat subtle, IIRC. Something that didn't work but wasn't mandatory. The GM said something like "That piece of gear is faulty. The manufacturer will replace them at no charge." I asked whether he would notify all his customers. His response was on the order of "Why would I do that?"

[NXR]

If you’ve never done routine notifications like that they could be seen as opening a big can of worms for a manufacturer. Most would only apply to a small subset of customers but anyone with a similar issue, or not, would want a free fix.

I love my Dometic AirCommand heat pumps but hate how they cycle on and off. I asked my dealer to check with Dometic to see if there was a fix. The dealer instead wrote it off as normal operation because both did it, which ticked me off because they did not do as I asked.

Through a forum here I found that Dometic had in fact revised the control board to fix the problem. So now I have to go back for another service call, which was totally avoidable. If Dometic or FR did a bulletin, and I do not know that they did not, the heat pumps would already be fixed.

Ray

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by NXR

If you’ve never done routine notifications like that they could be seen as opening a big can of worms for a manufacturer. Most would only apply to a small subset of customers but anyone with a similar issue, or not, would want a free fix.

I love my Dometic AirCommand heat pumps but hate how they cycle on and off. I asked my dealer to check with Dometic to see if there was a fix. The dealer instead wrote it off as normal operation because both did it, which ticked me off because they did not do as I asked.

Through a forum here I found that Dometic had in fact revised the control board to fix the problem. So now I have to go back for another service call, which was totally avoidable. If Dometic or FR did a bulletin, and I do not know that they did not, the heat pumps would already be fixed.

Ray

So call Dometic and see if they will send you the parts and you can install it. Or have an independent service shop do it through warranty/recall process.
Lots of options, don't have to subject yourself to going back for a lengthy session at a dealer who doesn't want to do it in the first place.

[gastan]

There's a lot in this thread.

Originally Posted by Scotrv

When a new unit arrives the sales dept. does a quick look over of the unit to make sure there are not any evident flaws and that the ordered options are on it. If we see loose trim etc. of course we are going to fix that before we put it on our lot for sale. These fixes would be performed under a warranty claim.

This seems reasonable to me. The only way some problems present themselves is by using the unit. How many on this forum advise a "shakedown" trip? I wouldn't expect a dealer to actually camp in a unit before they sell it. How many auto dealers take every (or any) new vehicles on a 50-60-100 mile "shakedown"? The fact that they fix the observable problems right away is good.

Originally Posted by Scotrv

PDI is done before the customer takes delivery,(at my dealership this is after an intent to buy agreement is in place) needed repairs/adjustments are taken care of before the customer takes delivery. On the day of pick up the customer receives an Orientation with a Technician.

Originally Posted by Scotrv

Ever go out to your camper and find something not working even though it did last time you went out?

Waiting until an intent to buy form is signed before a major inspection makes sense to me. You are not the only one tromping thru that unit. Depending on how long a unit sits on the lot, hundreds, even thousands, of feet are tromping thru it and hundreds of fingers are poking and pushing at things. Dealers shouldn't be expected to know, at a moments notice, the exact condition of every unit on their lot. I have, more than once, found problems on a unit while "shopping" at a dealer. And, more than once, the salesperson with me has said some variation of, "Hmmm, that wasn't like that the last time I was on this unit. I'll have to let the shop know." At the last RV show here I was on a high end unit and found something that was broken. When I pointed it out to the factory rep he was obviously a bit upset. He commented that it was working just 20-30 minutes ago the last time he was on the unit. (He also threw in an almost unheard aside about a "lot of kids here today".)

[safari]

Hello,
So Can a Customer Take A New Unit To The Factory In Ind

To Have Warranty Work Done?


Regards
Mike
Bakersfield,Ca

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by safari

Hello,
So Can a Customer Take A New Unit To The Factory In Ind

To Have Warranty Work Done?


Regards
Mike
Bakersfield,Ca

Many have.

[BehindBars]

Originally Posted by gastan

There's a lot in this thread.

This seems reasonable to me. The only way some problems present themselves is by using the unit. How many on this forum advise a "shakedown" trip? I wouldn't expect a dealer to actually camp in a unit before they sell it. How many auto dealers take every (or any) new vehicles on a 50-60-100 mile "shakedown"? The fact that they fix the observable problems right away is good.


Waiting until an intent to buy form is signed before a major inspection makes sense to me. You are not the only one tromping thru that unit. Depending on how long a unit sits on the lot, hundreds, even thousands, of feet are tromping thru it and hundreds of fingers are poking and pushing at things. Dealers shouldn't be expected to know, at a moments notice, the exact condition of every unit on their lot. I have, more than once, found problems on a unit while "shopping" at a dealer. And, more than once, the salesperson with me has said some variation of, "Hmmm, that wasn't like that the last time I was on this unit. I'll have to let the shop know." At the last RV show here I was on a high end unit and found something that was broken. When I pointed it out to the factory rep he was obviously a bit upset. He commented that it was working just 20-30 minutes ago the last time he was on the unit. (He also threw in an almost unheard aside about a "lot of kids here today".)

Hundreds or even thousands of feet tromping through it is why I would never buy an RV off the dealer lot. At that point you are essentially buying a used unit. I would expect a significant discount off any in-stock unit. I’ve seen the damage customers do. I’ve even seen the dealer tear them up by temporarily robbing parts to fix other units. It’s a real eye opener.

We ordered our recent unit, waited only 2 months, got exactly what we wanted, and no other customers were allowed to tromp through it.

[Scotrv]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Scot, you make a good argument for your current process...but here's where it falls apart.

You defer the inspection until the customer signs a contract and is ready to buy, right?

And then you do an inspection, just prior to the customer's orientation and pickup, right?

And you find that a part or component is broken and there's none in stock. What do you do?
--Get one sent overnight?
--Cannibalize one from another trailer, pushing the problem downstream (and doubling your labor costs-- two remove/replaces vs. one)?*
--Tell the customer something's broken and you'll fix it later, but he must pay now?
--Call the customer and tell him the orientation and pickup are delayed?

I don't believe any of these options will "delight the customer."

*You've mentioned that you don't do a complete inspection at your receipt because "If we did the PDI when we received it, we might find problems during the Orientation..." You don't suppose some of those problems are related to cannibalizing the unit after receipt to fix some other unit, do you?

An exception to doing PDI after an intent to purchase has been done is on used units. We perform the PDI on used units as soon as we can so we can address any issues and know what our reconditioned cost is before we list it for sale. Believe it or not, people tell us that everything is perfect with their trade in and we frequently find it to be different!

So back to a new unit.

Very rarely and I mean very rarely, have we cannobilized a part. The parts that tend to take awhile to get are body skirts, panels, windows, cabinet doors etc. that need to come from the manufacturer. These are all things that would be seen and corrected before PDI.

I think that what we consider PDI and a consumer thinks of it are two different things. PDI is not looking for a broken part hanging off, things that are easily noticed gets fixed as we see it in the course of daily activities on the sales lot. PDI is a detailed look and testing of the operation of the systems, appliances, LP drop test, plumbing pressure test, brake and suspension, caulking, leveling systems, entertainment systems and on and on.

I often see people comment that they are picking up their new trailer and doing the PDI. If I was buying an RV, the PDI had better of been done before I come in for an Orientation of the unit.

My reason for posting is to help clear up terminology and to add insight into what really happens at a dealer. I often see terminology that is incorrect and even statements of what dealers get paid that are false. This all tends to add a lot of confusion and miscommunication when customers are working with a dealer.

We like to have a weeks time to perform the PDI and take care of any issues before delivery and Orientation takes place. Most parts are readily available to us and come in within two days. (not from the RV manufacturer) Of course there are always exceptions. No system is going to be perfect. But, I feel confident that when a unit leaves our lot we have done our best to provide the customer with a unit that is at its best and functioning properly.

One thing I have learned from being in the RV business is that what delights one customer totally angers another. Example, a customer comes on our lot and parks in the parking spaces, gets out of their car and goes straight to our lot and starts looking (or better yet parks where we can't see them) do we run right out, introduce ourselves and offer to help or let them browse? Do we let them look awhile and then check on them? I can tell you that we have had people actually try to hide when they see us walk out and then we have people complain that we didn't come out right away. Can't please all the people all the time, try as we may.

[mjones12]

Scotrv: Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us on how dealerships - at least yours - operate. I have bought five rv's from dealers, yet still learned a lot from your posts. Appreciate it!

[Scotrv]

Originally Posted by mjones12

Scotrv: Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us on how dealerships - at least yours - operate. I have bought five rv's from dealers, yet still learned a lot from your posts. Appreciate it!

Thanks, glad it has been educational. My experience of how this works is from multiple dealerships. I am sure some do it totally differently.

[Theb2b]

Originally Posted by Scotrv

We like to have a weeks time to perform the PDI and take care of any issues before delivery and Orientation takes place. Most parts are readily available to us and come in within two days. (not from the RV manufacturer) Of course there are always exceptions. No system is going to be perfect. But, I feel confident that when a unit leaves our lot we have done our best to provide the customer with a unit that is at its best and functioning properly.

DW and I opted to order our camper as we knew what we wanted for options and layout and it would be new and pristine, not having had other folks and kids troop through it. When we got the call from the dealer stating it had just arrived the DW wanted to go down the next day, I was able to talke her into waiting a week so to give the dealer chance to go through it, then we would go through it. On the appointed day we did our walk through and orientation we found no issues. That was on a Thursday, went camping of Friday found some minor issues that I fixed in the campground, no big deal.
I don't know if the dealer found any issues all I know is we did not, and that to me is the goal.

[5picker]

Again, I'd like to thank Scotrv for participating here.
It is great to see dealers (or at least a dealer) get involved.
That in itself speaks volumes for them.

I'd like to touch on the PDI-vs-Orientation subject.

A PDI is just that... a Pre Delivery Inspection.

I believe BOTH the dealer AND the customer should do one. (or together)

I've already given my thoughts on why I believe the dealer should have done one before putting the product up for sale so I won't go there.

The customer has the right to do a PDI before purchase. That's why it is called a Pre Delivery Inspection. It is a process where the customer (or the dealer if they choose to) goes over and inspects and tries all items of the R/V and makes a list of what needs addressed and then it is repaired. We already know from several posts the manufacturer WILL pay to repair them via a warranty claim.

Now, whether that customer does the PDI before signing a "intent to buy" contract (or not) is somewhat debatable I suppose, depending on which party you ask but personally, I would never sign an "intent to buy" contract before doing the PDI unless there was a clause that any deposit money would be refunded and the deal void if the unit was found unsatisfactory.

And the definition of unsatisfactory would be MY OWN opinion. But that's me. I know what to look for and what to test and it would even include a road test. If the dealer wasn't OK with that... so long. If the dealer believed I was being unreasonable, they certainly would have the opportunity to make me understand differently but if it's broke or doesn't work correctly... it needs fixed... period.

When buying a R/V with MY money, the quality and workmanship has to meet MY standards or I'll refuse to buy. It's that simple. I simply won't be told... "Oh don't worry about that, we'll get it taken care of after you buy it." The PDI process fixes those things and then you can have my money.

The Customer Orientation is just that... a time period where a QUALIFIED technician from the dealership goes over EVERY aspect of how each R/V system, (electrical/plumbing/LP/etc.) major appliance(s), and accessory works.

It is a procedure done to be sure the customer understands where things are located and what they do. (bypass valves/water filter/breakers (120v & 12v)/breakaway switches/light switches/cable connections/shore power connections/thermostat modes/battery disconnects/LP quick connects/tank maintenance and on and on)

This can be done anytime that makes the dealer comfortable and fits the customers schedule since the 'fixing' should have already been done, deposits collected, deals signed and money changed hands.

Since the R/V buying experience is so different than any other vehicle buying process, we owe it to ourselves to be educated and to make good decisions. With but a few exceptions, there is no one in our corner but ourselves and this is proven time and time again on every R/V forum I've ever visited.

R/Ving is supposed to be fun. By the posts on just this forum alone, there sure are lots of folks who never find that enjoyment because the 'process' of becoming a satisfied R/V owner is lacking in so many ways. (from the manufacturer to the dealer to the customer)

Time for change. Hopefully with the participation of some FR folks on this forum and at least one dealer, (let's hope for more!) the industry will take a look and give a listen to how things can be better for all.

Again, just my 2¢.

[dblr]

I would also like to thank Scotrv for his post on how things are handled at their dealership, I know for a fact they have been around for quite a long time with very positive results!!! Also would like to point out they have donated to the first year we ran the Brass Ring Rally without hesitation and we like to support our local dealers as much as we can. Now just a hint to Scotrv we are running the rally again next year and will be reaching out to you again if possible, I skipped last year as I feel it is not fair asking the same dealers all the time. I would also recommend you to provide the name of the dealership for those that do not know where your from as long as it is ok by the forum rules. Thanks again.

[dward51]

In light of that recent Illinois Supreme Court ruling on undisclosed defects nullifying a sales contract, and the wider implications as it was a UCC incident with potential nationwide implications, I would think dealers would be more concerned about inspections for issues when a unit is received as opposed to delivered to the final purchaser.

One of the issues in that case was what was represented was not what was actually delivered (defective at time of sale and defect undisclosed or timely repaired by dealer/manufacturer lead to purchaser returning unit and cancelling contract). If you have not inspected a unit, how do you represent it as a new trailer ready to sell? Unless it's being sold "as is" the purchaser of a new trailer expects it to be defect free, and rightfully so. This is probably one of the biggest problems in the industry at the retailer level today. Perhaps the term PDI should not apply to receipt of a unit from the manufacturer, and another phrase would better describe what "should" be done, but may or may not be done currently depending on dealer policy. Either way it should not be up to the customer to figure out there are problems post sale as a policy. This is both a manufacturer and dealer issue.

Time will tell how dealers adapt, but hopefully that ruling will make some changes for the better because this is not a new issue. Just read any forum for thousands of complaints about defective units being sold as "new".