Plunger damage to black tank/toilet

chrissybird · 06-04-2016, 09:13 AM

I posted this in the General Tech forum, but thought I'd post it here as well. Our is a 2016 XLR 29HFS.

Can using a plunger on an RV toilet cause major damage to the toilet and black tank? Long story short, SO used RV toilet for the first time, and I didn't think to tell him about adding water to the bowl before & after flush, and it clogged. We cleared it by sticking a piece of old hose down toilet, and it started flushing properly again. Next morning, it clogged again - possibly didn't get it all the day before. Tried a piece of hose down the toilet again, but didn't work that time.

SO found a plunger, used it, and it cleared the clog - but problems after. The toilet no longer held a bit of water in the bowl. I figured the "flapper" seal was damaged and didn't want gases coming back into the RV, so I went outside to dump. We had full hook up, but had kept the black tank valve closed and the gray tank valves open (planned to close them that morning before showering since we'd be unhooking in the evening, to let them fill up and use them as a flush after BT dump). When I went out to dump the BT after realizing the toilet wouldn't hold water, I saw that "water" was leaking around the black tank valve - more specifically by what looked like where the pipe came out of the BT into the dump pipes, and also along the gray spray foam insulation in the same general area.

How bad did we mess things up??? Could we have totally blown seals on the black tank?? Or maybe just fittings where it goes into the dump pipes? We've since read that plungers should never be used in an RV toilet unless the black tank valve is open - is this true? We're newbies to RVing, so any advice, suggestions, etc. are greatly welcomed!

northstar1960 · 06-04-2016, 05:31 PM

well this is a new one for me . not sure why you needed a plunger in the first place since it's all gravity into the tank . but i can't see that using a plunger could cause this problem since the black tank is vented . sounds like you have a leak arounf where the pipe comes out of the black tank . only way to know is expose and see then maybe sealant or abs cement . if the toilet will not hold water then yes it's the seal around the ball you masy have damaged it or rolled it out of place .

Oaklevel · 06-04-2016, 05:47 PM

A plunger will not work to do anything for an RV toilet. May have damaged the bowl seals a replacement may be required. Try a flush wand like.......
Camco Mfg. Rv Tank Rinser 40094 - Walmart.com
To use for a clog.

When flushing plenty of water is your best friend.

northstar1960 · 06-05-2016, 10:21 AM

are you by chance leaving your black tank valve open . cause that's what it sounds like. the only way to clog your BT is to leave the valve open causing waste to build up . then you could have issues with toilet not working as it would be sitting on top a pile of waste

Evereddie · 06-05-2016, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northstar1960

are you by chance leaving your black tank valve open . cause that's what it sounds like. the only way to clog your BT is to leave the valve open causing waste to build up . then you could have issues with toilet not working as it would be sitting on top a pile of waste

Quote:

......We had full hook up, but had kept the black tank valve closed.....

I think this was covered.

SuicideSaints · 06-05-2016, 12:08 PM

A plunger will not do anything for an RV toilet. It's all gravity and no "suction/vaccum" will be created, due to the tank vents, to make a plunger work.

When plunging did you have the flapper open or closed (flushing vs non flushing position)? If you had it in the non flushing position chances are you damaged the seals and replacement/repair is in order.

northstar1960 · 06-05-2016, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evereddie

I think this was covered.

\
I can read . the description in the OP's post does not leave me to believe they had it closed . why would the toilet clog ? gravity drop into tank .
why add water there should all ready be water in the bowl . . why when using a hose did it clear and then clog again . seems to be build up in the tank and the most likely culprit is leaving the BT valve open .unless the OP has a leak in the tank which was said did not happen until plunger use

Soi say again sounds like the OP left the BT valve open

Evereddie · 06-05-2016, 12:39 PM

On this particular camper the toilet does NOT drop directly into the tank. There is a slanted pipe from the toilet to the tank. That pipe gets clogged if enough water is not used.

northstar1960 · 06-05-2016, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evereddie

On this particular camper the toilet does NOT drop directly into the tank. There is a slanted pipe from the toilet to the tank. That pipe gets clogged if enough water is not used.

I think you are mistaken . the xlr 29 hfs the toilet drops directly into the tank . so unless they plumb them all in different which with FR can be true it dumps right into the tank . now the other thing that could be happening is a hole piece they cut out for the Toilet or drain could still be in the tank [Not un common with FR or other manufactures to do this ] it could be blocdking solids from coming out when they dump and only allowing liquids so over time they have built up solids . Also the 29 hsf has a BT flush so is this being used every time they dump . are they maybe leaving the valve open thinking it's grey instead of the Bt . you never know .

Oaklevel · 06-05-2016, 01:53 PM

It could still develop a "pile" in the tank if enough water is not used for flushing and the tank does not have much water in it, even with the tank valve closed.

This is a crappy subject.......

sorry couldn't resist....

chrissybird · 06-05-2016, 07:30 PM

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'll try to clarify some items. This was our first time with full hook up, and, yes, we left the BT valve closed while connected. The two times we used it before, we only had electric, not water, and I was the only one using it and I made sure plenty of water was used when flushing. Also, on both previous trips, we dumped before leaving and each time flushed the BT twice after dumping - with the last flush for each trip being filling the BT until sensor reads 2/3 full, then dumping for 3rd time.

When the toilet wouldn't flush the first time, it did appear that there was "stuff" in the section of pipe just under "flapper" toilet bowl valve. That's when we stuck a piece of cut hose (no water) down the pipe to "break it up" and the pipe cleared and toilet flushed properly for 24 hrs after that, and black tank sensor never went above 1/3 full. It was the next day that it clogged again and the plunger was used. I asked SO if he had the toilet bowl valve/flapper open or closed when he plunged, and he said he can't recall - or more precisely, he can't remember sh*t

But after plunging, the pipe was no longer clogged, the toilet would flush but bowl would not hold water, so toilet bowl seal is obviously broken. What's confusing me is that after the plunging, the leaking started beneath the unit at what appears to be where the dump pipe comes out of the black tank. That's what really scares me. Fixing a toilet bowl seal shouldn't be a big deal - but could we have really messed something up with the seals on the BT itself???

Hope this clarifies things. BT had never leaked beneath the unit until after the plunger incident. And, since it was only used twice before, for a total of four nights by one person (myself), and dumped and flushed after each trip, I really don't think the issue is a build up of solids.

I guess I could try adding water through BT flush and dumping again to see if anything else comes out. Could also take some pictures of the underbelly leaks if I do this.

chrissybird · 06-05-2016, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evereddie

On this particular camper the toilet does NOT drop directly into the tank. There is a slanted pipe from the toilet to the tank. That pipe gets clogged if enough water is not used.

Yes! When we were trying to clear the clog, it did appear that there was a slanted pipe from the toilet, not a straight drop into the BT.

northstar1960 · 06-05-2016, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissybird

Yes! When we were trying to clear the clog, it did appear that there was a slanted pipe from the toilet, not a straight drop into the BT.

What unit do you have ? thought is was a xlr 29 hsf . if so my toilet goes right into the black tank , no bends or slants , since FR can't seem to do the same thing twice on any of their units i would assume others also have their black tanks plumbed in slightly different on all xlr29's. there is a large space below the ball and before it hits anything below the floor someone would have to be really relieving a lot of BBQ to clog it up .rotfl

on your leak i would empty tank then fill with only water and mark where it is leaking . then you can see what needs to be done then come here with the full picture and i'm sure someone could help

VinceU · 06-05-2016, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissybird

Yes! When we were trying to clear the clog, it did appear that there was a slanted pipe from the toilet, not a straight drop into the BT.

Using a medical glove and some silicon grease, you can usually reshape the seal door gasketback to round. I've done it, no disassembly. This assumes there's no tear.

WolfWhistle · 06-06-2016, 06:53 AM

My 29HFS drops straight as an arrow into the black tank; my toilet is mounted directly over the black tank; no need for a drop pipe, unless it is only a couple of inches long.

I can't imagine what an angle pipe would be for, unless the factory left something there that they should not have.

If you open your flush valve and look down there, do you not see the bottom of the black tank maybe 8" to 10" below? Use a light if necessary.

I have read on this forum about member having a back-up problem and there was a drop pipe from the toilet flange into the black tank that wasn't cut off, rather it was sitting on the bottom of the tank; preventing solids from entering the tank, while only liquids could run in. Again, my unit, the same model as your's, doesn't have a drop pipe that I can see.
WW

northstar1960 · 06-06-2016, 02:04 PM

Thanks for chiming in WW .. i though they were all the same . not room below the toilet and tank for a 3" slanted or bend anywhere . if something was left in the tank or hole not cut for toilet there would be issues but it never would have worked . i'm back to major build up in tank . you can't dump these things everyday unless you adds lots of water first

WolfWhistle · 06-06-2016, 08:18 PM

I add at least 5 gals water to an empty black tank... Then bio stuff to break it all down. No bleach or strong anything. Never had a smell in trailer. I let it fill to full at least over 2/3 full then dump. Flush at least twice till clear... Close the valve and start over with 5 gals... Etc

You are right dumping and not rinsing / flushing everyday not advisable

Let it fill and stand with a good natural bacterial... It will break down... Might take a few days or more. Some folks use Rid-X
WW

chrissybird · 06-08-2016, 08:17 PM

Well, we finally had a chance to take a close look at our issue today. Interesting find. There was a small pile of TP just below the toilet hole, but not a mountain blocking it. After seeing what the BT flush didn't get, I'm thinking forget that, just drop the back ramp, bring a hose in, and flush the tank from the toilet itself - which is what we did this evening.

Here is the real issue/culprit. The hole Forest River cut in the BT doesn't fully line up with the straight down drop pipe of the toilet (I was wrong about thinking it was slanted). There is a crescent moon shaped section of the BT hole that obstructs a part of the bottom of the toilet pipe hole. I'm guessing that when something other than a "pee" is flushed, particularly if enough water is not used in the flush, sh*t gets hung up on that crescent moon causing a clog (pun intended).

And this misaligned hole issue is the cause of our leak in the underbelly. When I only filled the BT to just below the crescent shaped misalignment of holes (doing so with a hose in the toilet with a flashlight), no leaks from the underbelly. As soon as I tried to fill up the BT so that the water rose up into the toilet drop pipe - no dice, couldn't get it to fill beyond a certain point and it began leaking from the underbelly.

So, obviously, once water gets above the misaligned holes, it begins running on top of the outside of the BT, and leaks through the coroplast underbelly where pipes come out around the gray spray foam insulation. Query - shouldn't there be some type of seal or sealant where the toilet pipe dumps into the BT????

Also, and this scares me a bit, when crawling around looking at the underbelly, I noticed that our coroplast underbelly has bowed down under the BT and is actually touching the TH's axle - presumably from the weight of the water that went on top of and outside the BT instead of inside it.

I'll be calling Couch's tomorrow about this. Since we're about 2 hours away from a reputable "bricks and mortar" FR rep (refuse to use Camping World that's about an hour away as they have a horrible service reputation), I have our mobile RV repairman that we've established a relationship with coming for a service call the week after next. I haven't filled him in yet on our discovery tonight, but will do so first thing tomorrow. Anyone have any thoughts on how tough a fix this is going to be? Think it can be something that can be fixed "on site" rather than in a shop? Wondering if the BT will need to be dropped. Any thoughts/advice are much appreciated!

SeaDog · 06-08-2016, 09:03 PM

From your discretion I would thing it is a major fix that may call for factory to do. either the BT needs of be moved to align with the toilet or some other fix to ensure there is a seal and that no obstruction stop your poo from hitting the tank. this is more the mobile RV in my limited judgement. I agree with you about Camping World RV service.

northstar1960 · 06-08-2016, 09:24 PM

Easy fix . just shut water off disconnect toilet supply , then 2 bolts at base of toilet ,pull toilet and cut out the half moon shaped piece of BT they missed . my guess is the hole is misaligned. if that's the case then it may not be sealed corectly and forget what i said above get a new BT

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