Very Little Heat

[RV Guy]

Oak - thanks for the nice comment. This thread actually did change (and improve)our installation procedure so that we do use a small self tapper in addition to the aluminum foil tape to hold the flex duct to the plenum. The change happened the following production day after this thread started last fall.

PTM

[LKicklight]

I too an impressed at being able to talk with an individual who knows what I am talking about. Most of the folks in the office, not offense, but none have ever really put their hands on the coachs during manufacturing. Having been employed by Grumman Aircraft at one time in my life and Lockheed Aircraft on another, it is very difficult to hide anything from the quality control inspectors...I would love to work for Forest River in Quality Control...Thanks for checking into the lug nut wheel problem...so far the judgement passed around here is, we have the wrong hubs on this coach!!

[LKicklight]

Got anothe good for you...our unit has the Read Entertainment Center with the Large Flat Screen TV...Every morning at 7:00 Am with AV power plugged in, the RCA Stereo comes on all by its self. I have read everything in both manuals to no avail..I can put the unit source on AUX, it still comes on, but of course with no noise...

[RV Guy]

I'll check into the stereo situation. Sounds like you have an alarm turned on, but I don't know for sure. Our vendor is preparing a written response to the hub issue. Back to you today hopefully.

PTM

[padave65]

Originally Posted by Oakman

OK, I’m impressed. A manufacturer rep that admits to a problem and works to resolve the issue instead of posting a bunch of BS and excuses as to how this couldn’t have happened during the build of the trailer.

We're in the market for a new trailer and I wish I could say that I would be considering the purchase of a Prime Time fifth wheel but the nearest dealer is over 250 miles away.

It would be worth the trip...IMO

[LKicklight]

Spoke with my dealer today on the hub issue, he too was waiting on some kind of reply concerning the safety issue. Checked with law enforcement, if this had been discovered in a safety check out on the highway, I would received a fine..hopefully that along with the knowledge that one lug bolt has broken already will be enough to get PrimeTime to install either new Hubs are longer lug bolts on our Crusader 270 RET..
Thanks for the update, we are getting excited to finally get back camping again..
The Kicklighters
Dallas, GA

[RV Guy]

After reviewing your photo and our wheel installation with BOTH the axle supplier and the wheel supplier, the installation is correct. Let me explain:

1. In the trailer industry, the same hubs (and therefore the same lugs) are used for both Steel Wheels and Aluminum Wheels. So there's no chance these were "mixed up".

2. A minimum requirement before achieving proper torque is 10 revolutions of the nut. We exceed that requirement.

3. The standard lug nuts that come with the axle are quite a bit shorter in height than the lug nuts we use on Crusader. You can see the height difference in the picture below.

4. The wheel supplier feels that the long nuts we use are superior to the standard axle nuts because they provide maximum thread engagement by utilizing the entire stud.

5. Furthermore, they believe the longer nuts "seat" better on the Aluminum Wheel that they sell us which allows for proper torque to be maintained.

If you would like for us to send you some of the shorter axle nuts that come with the axles, we'd be happy to. I think we just throw them away.

Regarding the lost lug - that could be caused by a variety of things and definitely must be replaced ASAP at your dealer. We do not believe that the lug nut style was the cause, though.

Sorry for your inconvenience and the guys at the office have the same information.

PTM

[LKicklight]

Appreciate your investagation of this particular problem but I believe you must have mis-understood me about the lug nut problem. One of the short Wheel Hug Lug has already broken off during out first trip out of town on January 2nd, 2012. Its not the Lug Nuts is the Wheel Hub Lugs themselves.
I am having a Georgia State Patrol Office come out tomorrow who inspects tractor trailer rigs on the interstate, his findings will determine if this condition in the photograph that I have already posted is in fact safe for highway use. I have been informed that this condition on a large rig would be grounds for a citation.
The photo I am sending is a photograph of the new Wheel Lug Bolt installed by Three Way Camper last month..as you can see, it is the proper length as compared to the ones next to it...
I would like to have the short wheel hub lugs replaced with the longer ones again as in the photo:

[M109Rrider]

To be perfectly honest kl, PTM's response makes perfect sense to me. If the only thing your worried about is a few threads sticking through an obviously longer lug nut take Jeff up on the offer and have him send you the shorter ones. I have aluminum wheels on my Crusader and don't have threads sticking through....but I have closed ended chrome acorn nuts. Really what's the difference? I'd bet the farm your lug nut broke from being over torqued. Your lug snapped off, if it had pulled the threads out of the nut then I would blame short studding.

[LKicklight]

If I had not had the broken lug bolt already I would not be that concerned..The ET Lug Nuts you speak of are available for 24 bucks, I have a set of those ordered on my own...Still believe having the longer lugs would solve the problem and would make me happy..Evidently when the lug broke off earlier, the dealer so fit to install a longer one for some good reason I suppose??? That is something he decided on his own..think it was the right thing to do...looks a lot better don't you think?

[LKicklight]

I have sent you another photo of the proper lug bolt install made by the dealer on our Crusader...This is the install that will make me happy, the shorter Lug Nuts does not do it for me...Let me know if in fact having the other Wheel Lug Bolts installed, especially for a customer with all the problems I've had to date, please let me know. Check with your Sales Manager RS for his knowledge of our problems to date...I like the idea of new Lug Bolts...Please let me know, I want this to go away now..Thanks

Originally Posted by RV Guy

After reviewing your photo and our wheel installation with BOTH the axle supplier and the wheel supplier, the installation is correct. Let me explain:

1. In the trailer industry, the same hubs (and therefore the same lugs) are used for both Steel Wheels and Aluminum Wheels. So there's no chance these were "mixed up".

2. A minimum requirement before achieving proper torque is 10 revolutions of the nut. We exceed that requirement.

3. The standard lug nuts that come with the axle are quite a bit shorter in height than the lug nuts we use on Crusader. You can see the height difference in the picture below.

4. The wheel supplier feels that the long nuts we use are superior to the standard axle nuts because they provide maximum thread engagement by utilizing the entire stud.

5. Furthermore, they believe the longer nuts "seat" better on the Aluminum Wheel that they sell us which allows for proper torque to be maintained.

If you would like for us to send you some of the shorter axle nuts that come with the axles, we'd be happy to. I think we just throw them away.

Regarding the lost lug - that could be caused by a variety of things and definitely must be replaced ASAP at your dealer. We do not believe that the lug nut style was the cause, though.

Sorry for your inconvenience and the guys at the office have the same information.

PTM

[M109Rrider]

I'm just as if not more anal retentive as the next guy when it comes to ensuring my stuff is safe and works properly. If it were me I'd chalk it up as "$h!t happens and move on. If I broke a stud and didnt realize i had longer than normal lug nuts I'd probably feel the need to install longer studs too but I think the axle OEM and trailer builder gave a reasonable explanation.

[LKicklight]

We purchased this unit for one reason and one reason alone, go to Alaska..If this thing has broken a stud off already just riding down an expressway, what the heck is going to do on the Alaskan Highway....not a good time to find out then and it will be out of warranty...Yep when it comes to me and my family, Yes I an really very, very anal and darn proud of it....With all that has gone wrong with this coach from Dec. 2011, we are running out of niceness...
Thanks for our opinion, kind of like belly buttons, everybody has one....

[M109Rrider]

Best of luck to you.

[LKicklight]

The information supplied by PrimeTime is incorrect...The nut that is installed on our Aluminum Wheel/Studs only have twelve threads, there are three showing at the top of the stud, that means there are only nine threads holding the wheel on the hub....HISPEC address's this condition and requires a minimum of eleven threads making contact with wheel hub stud...PrimeTime stated that they exceded the ten threads, that is certainly not correct.......

Originally Posted by LKicklight

I have sent you another photo of the proper lug bolt install made by the dealer on our Crusader...This is the install that will make me happy, the shorter Lug Nuts does not do it for me...Let me know if in fact having the other Wheel Lug Bolts installed, especially for a customer with all the problems I've had to date, please let me know. Check with your Sales Manager RS for his knowledge of our problems to date...I like the idea of new Lug Bolts...Please let me know, I want this to go away now..Thanks

[09grizzly1]

I'm a motor vehicle inspector in Canada.In order for me to pass the wheel stud/nut combination,there must be at least 1 complete thread showing beyond the last thread of the nut regardless of the nut length using a proper wheel nut(there are some nuts that the last thread is lower than the top of the nut).Broken studs are usually not a result of not enough threads engaged in the nut,it is usually caused by over tightening the nut.I have also seen broken studs due to the stud being defective-too soft of material.Usually when there is not enough stud engagement in the nut,the nut or stud will strip out.If I had the same concerns as you have with the safety aspect of the stud/nut combo and "want this to go away now",I would replace the studs myself or at the dealer if you are unable to do so.I would not curtail the use of my trailer while discussing this with the manufacturer over a small repair like this.

09grizzy1

[RV Guy]

Let me give more detail then:

1) According to your dealer in a conversation 5 minutes ago, your brakes were being inspected at the dealership and THEY snapped off your lug when the nut seized on the stud during removal. As a matter of fact, they have the broken lug and seized nut in hand if you want to get it from them during your visit today.

2) They replaced your lug with a stock part they had and believe it was 1/8" longer than the lugs that were on the hub. They did not order or get a longer lug from Lippert for this particular unit. It was a stock part. The Lippert lugs are 1 1/8" long. Apparently, after market lugs are commonly 1 1/4" long to accomodate different types of aluminum wheels that might be desired.

3) In a follow-up conversation with Tredit (the wheel supplier) the nuts we use have 15 threads! 15! So if 3 are seen in the picture that means 12 are engaged. 12! 20% more than Lippert's minimum recommendation and 50% more than the 8 that is commonly used as a minimum in the after-market industry. Here's a link for verification of this common industry standard:

Wheel Tech - Wheel Lug Torquing

4) There are thousands of applications where the nuts are enclosed on the end rather than open like these thus preventing the lug from protruding thru the nut.

5) Finally a comment about the Hispec press release. You do realize that is a self-generated press release from someone wanting to sell wheels right? That is not an official Federal specification or standard. They are promoting that their wheels lie on the hub face flatter and allow for additional stud to show thru thus giving more thread engagement on their wheel. This is an advertisement!

[LKicklight]

ET is a brand of Lug Nut sold here locally, they retail for $24.00 a set, they are an acorn type lug nut that will work in this application. A local tire and wheel dealership, Smyrna Tire and Wheel has them in stock. If PrimeTime will either purchase a set of these for me through Three Way Camper, then this problem for you, me and Three Way Camper will go away. Call Paxton Hamby, General Manager at Three Way Camper and authorize him to purchase these Nuts for me...I will install them myself and go pick them up.
All this has been docuemented and saved, lets see what the future will bring after we get some miles on the unit.
Thanks for yours an RS help...in this other matters with our Crusader 270 RET..
randy

[LKicklight]

As you can see by the photograph I have posted, there are at least three threads showing thru the nut..this is after the wheel nuts have been torque to 95#...so what you're telling me is, if you were to inspect this when we come through Canada, it would not be legal?? So after looking at this photo, which nut is correct and would pass your inspection?

Originally Posted by 09grizzly1

I'm a motor vehicle inspector in Canada.In order for me to pass the wheel stud/nut combination,there must be at least 1 complete thread showing beyond the last thread of the nut regardless of the nut length using a proper wheel nut(there are some nuts that the last thread is lower than the top of the nut).Broken studs are usually not a result of not enough threads engaged in the nut,it is usually caused by over tightening the nut.I have also seen broken studs due to the stud being defective-too soft of material.Usually when there is not enough stud engagement in the nut,the nut or stud will strip out.If I had the same concerns as you have with the safety aspect of the stud/nut combo and "want this to go away now",I would replace the studs myself or at the dealer if you are unable to do so.I would not curtail the use of my trailer while discussing this with the manufacturer over a small repair like this.

09grizzy1

[grhodes50]

LKickinglight, I guess I'm a little confused now.

The pic you posted shows a lug bolt slightly longer than the others and with a lug nut that is much shorter than the others. Similar to the lug nuts in the pic that RV Guy posted.

Your original claim was that the lug bolts were either too short or defective....or both. Now you say that if PT will foot the bill for new lug nuts "the problem will go away."

Sorry about hijacking this thread KAB449. I posted it as a link in another thread trying to help southernsky with his bedroom heating problem.