Freedom Express 312BHDS Liberty Edition

[JLud]

Hello,

Looking very hard at one of these for our first coach. We love the back bedroom as we have 3 young children (one more on the way), and there just seems to be a lot of nice features for the money on this unit. Power jacks all around, solid counter tops, the electric fireplace, etc....

Does anyone have any feedback on the Azdel in place of luan? Ive read its basically plastic, but lighter than luan, and presumably better bonding and less likely to separate?

My other thoughts are this.....will I want 2 entry doors instead of one for the kids, and my other concern is am I making a mistake by not getting a unit with an outside kitchen, as this just has the coleman stove with no sink/fridge/grill?

The other unit I am strongly considering is a Keystone Outback 312BH which has the 2nd door, and full outside kitchen, but one less slide and a few less amenities, also about 1,000 less.

Tow vehicle is 2013 F150 Screw Eco with Max Tow, think both are close to the same weights. Thoughts about difference in units or suggestions (we did look at the 310BHDS from Coachmen, but wife liked the 312 better, and for some reason likes the outback better than the 310)Thanks in advance.

[russellsawatsky 56]

We have a 2012 310BHDS with the outside kitchen Maple Leaf Addition 2011 F150 screw Ecoboost 6.5 bed 2 teenagers at home 3 older and married 6 grandkids we love the tt i think the outside kitchen is great when we go camping we have enough room for us and the kids and grandkids (one family at a time) truck will be able to pull the trailer well but it is close to the top of its capability

[JLud]

Russell,

Do you have the max tow pack on your truck? We should be in mostly relatively low elevation areas, no mountains in the immediate future.

[russellsawatsky 56]

Mountains shouldn't be a problem lot's of torque the only thing that I found is in heavy cross winds you have to be careful the trailer can sway slowing down to 50mph helps we have a 2011 screw eb max tow 6.5bed 7700# wdh XTR there are other wdh that might be better with the swaying in the wind but slowing down works the reason I say it's is at the top of the trucks capabilities is I wouldn't be comfortable pulling a bigger tt and I have a lot of experience with big trailers (pulled sb trailers138000# in British Columbia and the rest of Canada )

[JLud]

Yeah, im a newb at this, so am a bit worried about being too big, but with soon to be 4 kids not sure how enjoyable it would be in something smaller, for those nights and rainy days. Most of my camping was a sleeping bag with a gortex liner, didnt even get a tent.

I figure if I can drive an M1A2 and fly a couple different helicopters, I should be able to figure this out without too much damage

Any further thoughts on Keystone vs Coachmen, or the triple slide with big room for kids but no outside kitchen and no 2nd door?

[russellsawatsky 56]

Either one works I would go with the best deal you will love the room in poor weather my teens and grandkids have a ball in ours

[jeeplj8]

not sure how I missed this thread, but let me jump in!!

We were very close (debating interior color) to putting in an order for the 310 late last summer. We had looked at about everything there was and decided on that model. Big things were the size and layout of the bunkroom, Coachmen fit, finish and interior materials. Then they introduced the 320 and well, that is what we have. We loved the third slide and the room it gave in the kitchen. To us, that was worth the added weight and expense.

After owning it for about 6 months now, and just completing our first 2013 camping trip, I must say we love this trailer more everytime we camp in it.

The bunkroom is huge and that is great. There is enough floor room for my son to spread out his hot wheels and playmat when it is raining. We slept 2 kids and an adult back there this week with everyone having plenty of room.

If you have specific questions on the 320 let me know.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by JLud

Any further thoughts on Keystone vs Coachmen, or the triple slide with big room for kids but no outside kitchen and no 2nd door?

Different camper here, but we too have the outside kitchen and 2nd door and are very happy with it. While hanging out outside, the 2nd door gets used a lot for potty breaks. And we generally keep drinks and snacks in the outside kitchen, saving some running in and out.

That said, do you mind me asking about your truck and it's capabilities? It sounds like you've got 4 kids and I assume the 2 adults. The most important number when it comes to towing is your available payload capacity. This payload capacity (shown on a sticker on the doorjamb as the "maximum weight of cargo and all occupants").

This number has to have the weight of all of your occupants, anything that you carry (in the cab and in the bed), the weigh distributing hitch itself and the trailer's tongue weight. The trailer's tongue weight is usually between 10% and 15% of the camper's weight.

Personally, I completely ignore the "dry weight" of campers as no one tows a dry camper and I only look at the maximum weight that the camper can be. It is a static and unchanging number. And it has the nice side effect of - if you're within your ratings for the maximum weight, you're definitely within your ratings for anything less than that.

I looked at both of these campers and the Freedom Express has a maximum weight of 10,458 lbs. and the Keystone has a maximum weight of 9,000 lbs. That's going to give you a maximum tongue weight of 1,045-1,568.7 lbs and 900-1,350 lbs. (respectively).

The real question is - does your truck have enough payload capacity to be within your ratings?

[JLud]

We have 13 F150 Screw with Max tow, payload supposed to be 1900ish, sticker is at 1750. Kids are young and light yet, both units are right around 7800 yellow sticker on the door. Figuring 800 at tongue weight, roughly 1000 pounds left for wife and small (but growing) kids and gear. Please correct me if see anything wrong with that.

jeep, thanks for the feedback as well. Still havent pulled trigger, its cold out so not in too big of hurry. Wife didnt care for the island in the kitchen, she wanted the kids to have the room from the 3rd slide like in the 312 so they have their own table and such.

[jeeplj8]

The 312 is an interesting floorplan - the lack of an outdoor kitchen was a deal killer for us. never looked at that model.

As for weight, I think you are going to in for a shock. Coachmen lists the the "base weight on the 312 at 7122 and the 320BHDS at 7015. So according to Coachmen the "base weight" of the 312 is 107 pounds heavier, which makes sense with that larger slide int he rear.

The problem here is that my 320BHDS yellow sticker as delivered read 7959, and the actual weight with propane etc when scaled was over 8300 lbs. I last weighed it loaded for camping at 9300 lbs give or take, with ALL TANKS EMPTY. That 312 is actually HEAVIER than the 320.

Tongue weight on mine is right around 1200 lbs. on mine.

Looking at the dry weight is a huge mistake with these trailers.

I think the F-150 with max tow and ecoboost is clearly the best 1/2 ton truck to pull large trailers, but you are going to be at your limit with any of these trailers. Probably over.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by JLud

We have 13 F150 Screw with Max tow, payload supposed to be 1900ish, sticker is at 1750. Kids are young and light yet, both units are right around 7800 yellow sticker on the door. Figuring 800 at tongue weight, roughly 1000 pounds left for wife and small (but growing) kids and gear. Please correct me if see anything wrong with that.

I think you're good, mostly. The yellow sticker is going to be low as it does include more things than the advertised "dry weight", but it'll only increase from there once you add water to the tanks (if you do), your personal belongings and camping supplies. You'll probably need to be aware of how much stuff you carry in the truck bed (bikes, firewood, grill, etc.). Also don't forget the weight of carseats and stuff.

Even at 1,000 pounds of tongue weight- that still gives you 750 pounds to work with. It certainly sounds feasible.

It might be worth the exercise of loading the truck up like y'all were going camping and hitting a scale to find out your true weight. That'll give you a firm number of how much tongue weight you can carry (i.e. gross vehicle weight rating - actual scaled weight).

Take care and happy camping!

[JLud]

Yellow sticker weight was like 7800, so yeah could imagine 9000 loaded up, but was still thinking of being able to keep weight below 1000 on hitch worst case.

I could go down to the 310BHDS, that yellow sticker was at 7200ish, and was one of my thoughts as it gives me all the nice coachmen features like solid surface, power stuff, fireplace, etc...plus i get 2nd door and outside kitchen, all with lower weight. Wife loves the 312 and i debated her on the 310 and lost, which somehow led to the Keystone Outback which she was ok with (dont ask me why as to me 310 features are nicer).

[ependydad]

I think I've read on here that the average RVer adds 1,800 pounds to their campers. BUT- that could be completely poppycock.

It sounds like you're thinking and that is most important. Just be aware and make an educated decision. I'd hate to see you end up with too much camper and have to upgrade your truck (seeing that it seems very new itself).

Oh and wives always win. It keeps the world centered and the universe correct and all that jazz! I wanted to stay under 35' and absolutely wouldn't go over 40' when we were shopping. Somehow our camper is 42'! I love it, but dang- it's a of of camper!

[jeeplj8]

At 9K loaded up (which I still think is light for the 312, I truly believe you will be more like 9500 without water), 15% would be 1350 lbs. 13% is 1170.

I think you will be over 1000lbs tongue weight. For all your calculation, I would suggest you use 1200 lbs. That is more conservative.

I know the posted weights on the Keystone Bullit line are much lighter as those are considered ultr-lites. But the Outback is very unlikely to weigh any less.

To put it in perspective, no matter tha manufacturer they are using many of the same components. In other words they are using frames and couple capable of 12K, and axles of at least 10K. No manufacturer ever builds a trailer with heavier running gear than they need. So the GVWR is the best number to look at. I know we could easily hit 10K with our trailer by just taking along a little more gear.

[JLud]

Forgot to mention just had the Ford dealer here showing her a new explorer sport trying to get her out of her suburban.....this is going to be an expensive year. Not sure how i feel going from a suburban to a small explorer, but dang that sport is fast....

On the trailer, I admit I hate the idea of 37 feet behind the back bumper and being almost as long as a semi, with 4 kids screaming.....think the cockpit with a little enemy contact might be more relaxing.

[jeeplj8]

I know the feeling. On our way home Wednesday we stopped at a truck stop for fuel and then parked to go inside, stretch legs potty etc. We were only 5 ft shorter than the semi next to us. That sobers you a little.

And how do you fit 4 kids in a pick-up? This is starting to sound less like vacation and more like work...

We tow with an Excursion. I can stack kids back there like firewood.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by JLud

On the trailer, I admit I hate the idea of 37 feet behind the back bumper and being almost as long as a semi, with 4 kids screaming.....think the cockpit with a little enemy contact might be more relaxing.

LOL! We're 58 1/2' bumper to bumper when we're hitched up with our crew cab/long bed and camper. Yep- just shorter than a semi! Usually my kids are good (just 2 of them- a 9 year old and a less than 1 year old)- but we did have an evening where the little guy lost it for like an hour plus. He was just done with bring in a car seat. It was brutal.

[russellsawatsky 56]

You're truck will handle the tt (mine does) make sure that you get a wdh with sway control and set it up properly if it is a dd it is a compromise though if it is a tv only go to a F250+ you will be more comfortable with the bigger tt

[JLud]

Its a DD. Went to buy an F250 Superduty Diesel, just for the hell of it really. When I got the options I wanted, looked at the price and rebates which were not that good at year end. The F150 Eco with the same options (probably a few more) was 13k less than the superduty diesel. That was a lot, made up the choice that I could get by towing with that.

I had to get the XLT package with the fold down front seat console, not the big ones most trucks have now. That way I can fit 3 in the front, 3 across the back, and be legal and such. I can guarantee kids will be fighting, meltdowns will happen, and yes, I often question my sanity for wanting to do this...

[russellsawatsky 56]

You have made the same decision I did I had my heart set on a F350 cc diesel but I can't justify the extra cost mine is a XLT XTR (a Canadian package ) same seats you have and I still think that I made the right decision