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Old 06-01-2018, 01:32 AM   #1
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Gas/Electric water heater issues.

Hello All! Recently Bought a nice used 2008 Rockwood Roo 21SS. Fairly new to camping (in a camper at least). I have been having some issues getting the water heater to work properly. Previous owner said he could not get the gas to work, so he just used the electric.

First off, I fried the electric element immediately. Ran the water heater dry without opening up the bypass. Whoops. Have replaced that and all is well on the electric end.

The gas side has me confused. When turning the gas switch on the inside of the camper to the on position, the light on the switch is not turning on. Would this be a switch issue, or an electrical issue? All breakers are in the on position and not tripped. Just looking for a little advice on where to start my trouble shooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks!
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Old 06-01-2018, 03:49 AM   #2
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Hello All! Recently Bought a nice used 2008 Rockwood Roo 21SS. Fairly new to camping (in a camper at least). I have been having some issues getting the water heater to work properly. Previous owner said he could not get the gas to work, so he just used the electric.

First off, I fried the electric element immediately. Ran the water heater dry without opening up the bypass. Whoops. Have replaced that and all is well on the electric end.

The gas side has me confused. When turning the gas switch on the inside of the camper to the on position, the light on the switch is not turning on. Would this be a switch issue, or an electrical issue? All breakers are in the on position and not tripped. Just looking for a little advice on where to start my trouble shooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks!
On mine, the red light comes on Lights the fire then goes out. Comes on and stays on when the gas runs out. Won't come on if the water is already hot from the electric.
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Old 06-01-2018, 04:07 AM   #3
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The gas side has me confused. When turning the gas switch on the inside of the camper to the on position, the light on the switch is not turning on. Would this be a switch issue, or an electrical issue? All breakers are in the on position and not tripped. Just looking for a little advice on where to start my trouble shooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated, Thanks!
Howdy Casey. and welcome aboard. Forest River uses two brands of tank type water heaters, and they operate similar, but do have some differences so we need to know which brand you have to properly troubleshoot.

You stated you replaced the electric heating element already. Did the element come out from the front side of the tank (which would have you standing outside the camper to remove) or the backside (which you would be inside the camper to remove)? Also the switch you use to turn on the electric heating element, is it on the tank itself or is it inside the RV? The answers to these questions will easily help identify if you have a Suburban or Atwood brand in case you don't know.

Now a quick FYI. As you already know, to use the electric heating element, you have to be connected to a form of 120 volt AC power for it to operate (shore power or generator usually). 120 volt AC items and/or the circuits these appliances plug into in your RV are protected by circuit breakers.

The gas side has to have 12 volt DC to operate. This allows you to heat the water with propane as long as you have a battery and allows you to boondock without 120 volt AC. 12 volt DC items in your RV will be protected by fuses.


This FAQ thread may help explain it better:


Converter or Inverter (they are different)


So with the two modes of heating (gas and/or electric heating element) you can use your water heater when connected to 120 volt AC (element) or when you are not (gas). When you are connected to 120 volt AC, you can also use both heating modes simultaneously to get the fastest heated water....or just each one individually depending on your circumstances and wishes.

The two heating modes also operate independent of one another, so if one mode isn't operating, the other may still.

We have documentation on both brands of water heaters in our library. If you have the Suburban brand, this one may help:

Forest River Forums - Downloads - WH_Service and Training Manual 05-18-11.pdf

Once you let us know what brand you have, we'll troubleshoot further.

Thanks
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Old 06-01-2018, 04:39 AM   #4
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The switch for the electric is located on the water heater (outside). Also, when i replaced the element it was located on the front, just to the right of the on\off switch. I believe I have the Suburban brand.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:38 AM   #5
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The switch for the electric is located on the water heater (outside). Also, when i replaced the element it was located on the front, just to the right of the on\off switch. I believe I have the Suburban brand.
Yes, that identifies as a Suburban.
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Old 06-01-2018, 05:48 AM   #6
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OK starting with the easy stuff first, we want to make sure first you have the electric heating element turned off, so the water is cool inside the tank. If the water is already heated due to the electric element, then the thermostat for the propane side will not close to allow the burner to fire up...since it's detecting the water is already hot and thus no need for heat. You may have to wait some time or run out your hot water to get it cool, so we can try the gas.


You can leave the RV connected to shore power if you currently have it so, as the converter will provide the 12 volt DC we need for the gas side to function. If you read that previous link I gave you in post #3 above, it explains the converters function. Do you have a good battery in the RV currently? I am assuming you do have 12 volt DC to your RV currently either thru a battery or via the converter if connected to shore power.

Next you want to make sure your propane cylinders have gas, and are open. Turn on your gas stove burners for a bit to make sure you are getting gas, and there is not air in the lines.

Now with cool water in the tank, and gas being supplied, turn on the DSI/gas switch to the water heater inside the RV...and see if the burner to the water heater ignites (or tries to). You will hear a clicking at the burner as the ignitor tries to light the propane. (assuming you have a DSI/ direct spark ignition type which most are going to be). Looking at the pic below, do you see the orangish wire at the bottom right hand corner that looks similar to a spark plug wire. Does your water heater have this, cause if it does you have a DSI type.

If you don't hear a clicking and/or the burner failed to ignite:

Look outside on the face of the water heater. You will see a rubber cover near the top, that has two reset buttons that go to the ECO/hi-limit thermostats to your water heater. This ECO (abbreviated for emergency cut off) trips if the temp gets too high in the tank and the regular thermostat didn't shut off the power at 130 degrees.

Press the right hand side one for the 12 volt DC/gas ECO. The left hand one is for the 120 volt AC electric element, but we know that one works. You just press in on the rubber cover with your finger to reset a possibly tripped ECO. Remember I stated that the two heating modes operate independent of one another, thus your need for two sets of thermostats and ECO's.







Here is what it looks like underneath the rubber cover, which we may have to look at later in troubleshooting. You will notice two thermostats per side. You have your regular thermostat on the bottom of each side that cuts power at usually 130 degrees. On top of that you will see the ECO/hi-limit thermostats that in case of failure of the normal thermostat will cut power at I think around 160 degrees or close to it. If this ECO thermostat trips, you can press in the button to reset it. If either the regular thermostat or the ECO/hi-limit thermostat goes bad, you have to replace them as an assembly. You will have two different part numbers since one side is 120 volt AC and the other is 12 volt DC. You have to get the correct thermostat assembly depending on which one you have to replace.


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Old 06-01-2018, 01:21 PM   #7
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WMTIRE, that has to be the most thorough, well thought out and explained beginning to troubleshooting a WH I have ever read. I am completely impressed! GOOD JOB!

The site is Very lucky to have you here!
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Old 06-01-2018, 01:38 PM   #8
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wmtire has given you excellent information to get you pointed in the right direction.
I'll simply add these two schematics for the 12v side and the 120v side.
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Old 06-01-2018, 07:47 PM   #9
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Great explanation WmTire...
Now to the OP...one additional question...do your other gas appliances (stove, fridge) work on gas while the heater doesn't?
If not...it may be that your propane sniffer/solenoid no longer works and is disabling your propane system.
Given the age of the RV...that sniffer may be on the replacement list for the second time.
WmTire's advice is more likely...but just thought I might save you some work if you hadn't checked the other appliances.
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:40 PM   #10
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Wow, you guys know your stuff. Have tried the reset and it is not tripped. I will pull the cover off of the resets and begin with that replacement. Should be able to get the part #from the PDF of the water heater you posted previously. Thanks fornall of your input and will keep you posted! 👍
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:59 PM   #11
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Wow, you guys know your stuff. Have tried the reset and it is not tripped. I will pull the cover off of the resets and begin with that replacement. Should be able to get the part #from the PDF of the water heater you posted previously. Thanks fornall of your input and will keep you posted! ��

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! You don't need to replace the thermostats. I just showed you those as we will test them most likely later. We aren't at that stage at all.
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Old 06-01-2018, 09:01 PM   #12
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OK, where you able to do all of the other stuff I previously mentioned...make sure the electric element is off, the water cool, the propane valves open and purged by turning on your stove? Then after all of that did you turn on the DSI/gas switch?
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:08 PM   #13
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Great info here. Thanks WMTire. I saved it in case I need it later.
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Old 06-01-2018, 10:33 PM   #14
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wmtire, it'll be great if you write this up and place a pdf in the library.
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Old 06-02-2018, 01:37 AM   #15
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OK, we are still just looking at the easy stuff before getting out a multimeter, and doing a process. Just following the diagram 5picker provided, you could have a bad switch, thermostat assembly, module board, gas valve, or electrode. You could also have wiring problems between any of those or the 12 volt power supply feeding the water heater. We will go thru the process, and eliminate it one at a time.
If you have done all of the aformentioned things in the previous posts, and still no success, then also sticking to easy, lets check wire connections since you do have a RV bumping down the road, where sometimes the wires just come loose (or could have not been installed correct/tight). At this point if you still have the inside switch to the DSI/propane side in the on position, go ahead and turn it off while you check all the connections so you won't possibly get any sparks/shocks while handling the connections..

Looking at the gas valve in the above diagram (brown and black wires that go to 4, 3, 2, and 1) as well as this pic below of the gas valve...make sure the wire connections are correct and also the 1/4 inch wire spade connectors to the terminals are tight and the wires going into the spade connectors are not loose and are crimped good into the spade connectors. You can also make sure the spade connectors are tight and wires crimped going to the 12 volt DC thermostat from the previous step if you have removed the rubber cover.


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If you will look at this pic of the spark ignitor below, you can see it also has a spade connection. You can also check this to make sure it's tight. It's good to familiarize yourself with all these parts I'm mentioning/picturing, cause we may be coming back later and testing voltages to them with a multimeter.

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You may also want to go ahead and pull out the inside switch that turns on your water heater dsi/propane side. Check the spade connectors/wires on it too. You may want to leave it out because if none of this fixes the problem, we are about to get out the multimeter and start tracing 12 volt DC voltages. Do you have a multimeter and are familiar with using it?
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Old 06-03-2018, 10:07 AM   #16
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If none of the previous posts have solved the problem, then it's time to get out a multimeter, and lets start tracing 12 volt DC voltages to see at what point/part it stops. I'm not going to get into a tutorial here on how to use a multimeter, as there are so many different brands, features, etc. The internet has all kind of tutorials. You just want to make sure you are set to measure 12 volt DC (which could be on your multimeter as VDC, DCV, or a symbol that looks like half a highway with a straight line and a dashed line beneath.

Here is another 12 volt DC schematic for a SW6DE model (one of the more common water heaters). I adapted a little to show how the system works. The following is going to apply to mostly post year 2000 model water heaters from Suburban. Older ones may be different. Each model of Suburban works similar but may have a little different wiring schematic, which most are included in the previous link to the Suburban service manual we keep in the library here.


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If you notice, I numbered the items in the system as 1-6, with some numbers being blue and some being red. The red numbers (module board and junction box) are going to be located behind the water heater, and thus are harder to reach/service. The blue numbers (switch/fault lamp, thermostat assembly, gas valve, and electrode) are easy to service as you will be standing directly in front of them.

You will also notice in the schematic that the wiring going from the #1 switch and #1a fault lamp to the #2 junction box is called field wiring. This field wiring is provided by Forest River when installing the switch/fault lamp during the manufacturing process and may or may not match the wiring color from the junction box to the thermostat and/or module board. Wanted to point that out so you won't get hung up on trying to trace a certain color wire should the need dictate later on.

Before we proceed with testing voltages, let's get an understanding of how the gas and 12 volt DC system work, which should help you get your head around it all for the testing.

If the water is cool inside the tank, and you have a source of 12 volt DC power then:

When you turn on the #1 switch, it allows power to flow thru the #2 junction box to the #3 thermostat assembly (first thru the ECO and then thru the regular thermostat), since both thermostats will close to allow power thru due to the water temp being below a certain temp. When the water heats up, the regular thermostat opens the circuit, which cuts power...thus turning off everything until the water cools down enough for the thermostat to once again close the circuit and allow power again. The thermostats are attached up against the tank wall underneath that rubber cover, and sense the temp of the water thru the metal wall. This is why the assemblies need to be tight and firmly against the tank wall to operate correctly.

Now once power goes thru the thermostats, it goes to the electronic brains of the entire system, called the #4 module board. This module board then sends power to the #5 gas valve which allows it to open and send gas to be ignited to burn which heats the water inside the tank. The module board also sends power to the electrode for it to start sparking to ignite the gas (the clicking noise you hear). If the gas fails to ignite after a few seconds, the module board shuts off the power to the gas valve and electrode... but after a 15 second delay to clear out excess gas, the module board starts the process again to open the gas valve and ignite the gas with the electrode. It does this automatically up to three times if needed, and if the gas doesn't ignite after a third failed attempt, the module board goes into lockout mode and will not attempt again until you turn off the switch inside the RV for 5 seconds or so to reset the lockout. Also if the module board doesn't receive a small milliamp signal back from the flame sensor that tells it the gas is burning, besides cutting power, the module board also illuminates the DSI fault/reset lamp beside your DSI switch to let you know that there is a problem and the gas failed to ignite. It also usually illuminates this lamp right at the beginning of the ignition/lighting process, and it goes out as soon as the propane ignites and starts to burn while doing the 3 attempts.


If for some reason you have air inside your propane lines, you may have to go thru this 3 attempt cycle a few times to purge the air out. This is why you want to turn on your stove (if equipped) to purge air out of the lines and this also makes sure there is propane being delivered/working inside the RV. Sure don't want to trace an electrical problem if it's a gas delivery problem.


It's a fairly easy process, but does have points of failure (power supply, wiring, switch, thermostats, module board, gas valve, electrode) that we can begin to troubleshoot in the next step.

I guess we are passing the point of easy now. LOL
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Old 06-03-2018, 05:15 PM   #17
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At this point we are going to use a multimeter set to DC voltage and are trying measure voltage at certain points/parts to see if it's a power/wiring issue or parts failure.

For safety reasons, it's going to be best to go ahead and unplug the RV from any form of 120 volt AC shore power. We are going to test the 12 volt DC thermostat but it is right beside the 120 volt AC thermostat, which shouldn't have power going to it, if you have the switch off, but we don't want to gamble just in case. If the RV is disconnected from shore power/generator then we are sure of this. However you need to have a good and charged battery installed in the RV to provide the 12 volt DC, and any possible battery disconnects need to be where power is being allowed to the RV. Usually you can briefly turn on a vent fan, radio, or some lights to verify you have 12 volt DC power, as in most RV's these aforementioned items are 12 volt DC powered.

You may also want to enlist the aid of a spouse, ungrateful child ( but that may just be my son), or friend/neighbor who owes you a favor... to turn on/off the inside DSI switch for you during testing so you don't have to keep going in/out as you troubleshoot.

Okay, here we go trying to keep it easy working to harder. Go outside the RV at the face of the water heater and remove the rubber cover over the thermostats as previously shown. We are going to kind of start in the middle and backtrack if needed or go forth if needed. Trying the easiest first.



Utilizing the 12 volt DC thermostat on the right side, put your red multimeter probe on the top tab which can be right beside the spade connector of the red wire of the ECO/hi-limit thermostat and your black multimeter probe on a good ground somewhere. You may can just use the metal frame of the water heater for a ground, but you do have to have a ground to measure the voltage.

Turn on the inside DSI/propane switch to the water heater inside the RV. (This is where that second person comes in handy). The magic number you are looking for has to be within 10.5-13.5 DC volts.

If you get a good voltage at the top ECO/hi-limit thermostat, then move the red multimeter probe to the bottom thermostat and measure the voltage there beside the red wire spade connector. If you got good DC voltage on both, then we know both thermostats are possibly good and no need to mess with them at his point in troubleshooting. Power going into the top thermostat but not coming out of the bottom one would tell you there is a problem there.

Also if you have power going into the top ECO/hi-limit thermostat that tells you the #1 DSI panel switch is allowing power thru and it is most likely good too.

However if you cannot get any DC voltage reading at the ECO/hi-limit thermostat, then we have to backtrack to the #1 panel switch and/or the #2 junction box behind the water heater.

Going forward, if the thermostats checked good, we will proceed to the #5 gas valve. Since you are standing there... once the second person turned on the inside switch, have you noticed the gas valve opening up or smelled propane during what is called the trial for ignition (TFI)? If so, then this shows the #4 module board is powering the gas valve. You can also use your multimeter to test the gas valve voltage during a TFI. Have your buddy turn off the inside DSI switch and then back on after a few seconds which gives you time to move your red multimeter probe to the brown wire spade terminals on the gas valve.


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You want to see if you are also getting between 10.5-13.5 DC volts at the gas valve during the TFI period which will be about 15 seconds after your helper turns on the switch. If good voltage at this point, we move forward... if not, we have to move back to the #4 module board behind the water heater.

Going to need an entire post for that scenario, which we need to go into anyway as this module board also controls the electrode ignitor.
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Old 06-04-2018, 03:39 PM   #18
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Alright, holding off on replacement parts, will continue through everything you have suggested. Will be printing off everything here for reference out in the driveway. Will get back on after I have time to check everything out. Thanks!
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Old 06-04-2018, 04:04 PM   #19
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Alright, holding off on replacement parts, will continue through everything you have suggested. Will be printing off everything here for reference out in the driveway. Will get back on after I have time to check everything out. Thanks!
Excellent. I'll try to get the part about the module board typed up. It's a lot of info I know to take in, but hope it is helping.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:45 PM   #20
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Excellent. I'll try to get the part about the module board typed up. It's a lot of info I know to take in, but hope it is helping.
Man this is awesome. We just bought a camper and ive been struggling with the WH since we got it. Im going to start in this tomorrow. I havent even started and by reading your comments i feel like i owe you for the fix already
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