Forest River Quality is a Threat To Lives

[DASchell]

5th Trip out since purchasing our Surveyor 265-RLDS in August. Watching TV and the Breaker trips. Only momentary then comes back on then trips etc. Each time shorter between tripping but breakers never actually trip to the reset/off condition. Finally we have no 110 volt power at all. I checked the pedestal power and my surge protection/line conditioner which we have had since day one. Lights show that everything is fine proper polarity etc. Go back inside and when looking to see inside the power control panel the lid banged slightly momentarily jarring the panel and the power came back for a second. I decided to remove the outer panel to discover the Neutral wires loose on the bus bar and melted. (See picture). Also note the two wires into one position because the adjacent position screw was frozen open. How this thing did not catch fire is beyond me. Should I go ballistic on the dealer or Forest River or both or save my breath?

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by DASchell

5th Trip out since purchasing our Surveyor 265-RLDS in August. Watching TV and the Breaker trips. Only momentary then comes back on then trips etc. Each time shorter between tripping but breakers never actually trip to the reset/off condition. Finally we have no 110 volt power at all. I checked the pedestal power and my surge protection/line conditioner which we have had since day one. Lights show that everything is fine proper polarity etc. Go back inside and when looking to see inside the power control panel the lid banged slightly momentarily jarring the panel and the power came back for a second. I decided to remove the outer panel to discover the Neutral wires loose on the bus bar and melted. (See picture). Also note the two wires into one position because the adjacent position screw was frozen open. How this thing did not catch fire is beyond me. Should I go ballistic on the dealer or Forest River or both or save my breath?

That's cause by loose connections for sure . also installing 2 wires in one lug is not code nor would i think up to Riva standards . I would get a hold of FR with the pictures and aftermath . don't think a dealer will do much but wouldn't hurt to try . just don't go in raging,keep it cool and calm and maybe get the repair done along with a new distribution panel

[Crabman]

Some things should just not be rushed, electrical work is one of them....

[NO3putt]

Had the same thing happen to our Berkshire in 2012 while we were traveling back from Alaska. Yep lucky no fire. Get a hold of FR and have them pay for repairs, they did for us out of warranty. Skip

[HangDiver]

I don't get worked up easily but that would keep me up at night. I'm going to pull the converter on my Micro Lite and check connections on it and everywhere else.

There is no excuse for that, especially on a new camper.

[boondocking]

Keep your cool,

Go back to the dealer with the photo and ask for the electrical to be repaired and inspected and send a photo to Forest River to show them the shoddy work that was done. Tell them you would like compensation for your time to take the trailer back for repair.

[cavie]

Go to HD and spend about $10.00 on wire nuts and a short piece of 14/2 RX maybe some 12/2. Cut out the burned wires and splice in new peices. Go have a beer and call it a day,

[travelboysteve]

I agree with other posters.
Keep your cool, and just "show" them the potential that existed.
I have seen this issue more times than I can count.
In homes, commercial and industrial systems.


Being an electrician for many years, I can tell you that I tighten / check my electrical connections when doing basic maintenance on the rig.
It is solid wiring enduring constant vibrations while driving, generator in use, etc.
I won't go into a lengthy dissertation of the effects of AC power on connections here, but trust me when I tell you, always check your connections!!!

They will come loose due to normal driving conditions, and I highly doubt the installers at the factory are trained in electrical installation beyond running the romex and other simple circuitry.
The unused / unbalanced electrical load returns on the neutral and can carry more current than the supply side under certain conditions.

One tip I can tell you is to use a compound called "Noalox" on the electrical connections in your panel and at the Genny.
I'm only referring to larger, high current carrying, or AC systems inside your coach, not the little ones like small 12 volt lights.

Primarily used to bond aluminum and copper connections together at terminals, etc, it keeps a cool connection and resists oxidation as well, (think generator connections).
Home Depot has this stuff all day long, no one there seems to know what it's for though,.......



Keep in mind we are all using the latest in electronics which is harsh on electrical systems due to their non-linear properties, so having proper contact surface area and tight / cool connections is a must in any good operating electrical system.
FWIW, I actually repaired my ground, since that is the heart of any electrical system. Ac or DC.
I wire brushed the frame and installed a larger, better contacting main ground for the coach.
I've not experienced any issues thus far and have installed driving lights, reverse floods, 200w adjustable solar system, and all the electronic goodies inside to watch TV / listen to music.
No hums,brown outs, nothing.
Be safe people, electricity is a killer if left unattended.
Don't be "that guy", (or gal), open your electrical panel, (with system fully de-energized, and just put a screwdriver in their and snug up the breaker wires AND your neutral / Grounding wires. (white and bare / green)
I think 14 in lbs is what most breakers and #14 / #12 terminal call for.
That's like 1.2 ft lbs, don't over tighten electrical connections, that's even worse.



Be safe everyone.


Merry Christmas

[travelboysteve]

Originally Posted by cavie

Go to HD and spend about $10.00 on wire nuts and a short piece of 14/2 RX maybe some 12/2. Cut out the burned wires and splice in new peices. Go have a beer and call it a day,

I would see if there is enough slack in the existing wires to go directly to the terminals before I did this.

Adding another connection by an inexperienced person can just add to the issue.
I have done this as a temporary fix, but I don't suggest doing it permanently on a rig that constantly vibrates with solid conductors.


just my .02

[itat]

That’s obviously not right but I’m no electrician and can’t offer any advice. I completely understand your anger about this if the Surveyor factory mis-wired your panel.

I do need to say, however, out of fairness, that Forest River is a very big company with a lot of different brands and factories. If this was done by the the Surveyor factory its fair to call them out for poor work but to slam all of Forest River is unjustified. As far as I know, the factories are mostly independent.

[Oaklevel]

As others have said keep your cool......... The dealer has nothing to do with this other than making the repairs not sure why you would want to go off on them.........

Also Forest River is a large company with many divisions some better than others but I would be willing to bet that other RV manufacturers have the same issues.

And yes keep in mind, to keep up with maintenance as pulling a house down the road is something like an earthquake of a continuous 4.0 magnitude.

[Gonefishing1]

Even if you can fix it yourself your dealer and FR needs to know about what happen and see the photos. That could of been a disaster for sure. Thank god no one was hurt and a fire didn’t start.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by travelboysteve

I would see if there is enough slack in the existing wires to go directly to the terminals before I did this.

Adding another connection by an inexperienced person can just add to the issue.
I have done this as a temporary fix, but I don't suggest doing it permanently on a rig that constantly vibrates with solid conductors.


just my .02

Not enought wire there to put back without a splice. Must cut back at least 6" to get to good insulation. The methoud I discribed is exactly how the dealer would fix this as there is no way to replace any wires to the first outlet in the circuit. Never mind the down time sitting in the dealers lot for weeks. That can all be repaired saftly in about one hour. Use wire nuts. Not scotch locks.

[Joe_GA]

Originally Posted by cavie

Go to HD and spend about $10.00 on wire nuts and a short piece of 14/2 RX maybe some 12/2. Cut out the burned wires and splice in new peices. Go have a beer and call it a day,

If you have to go this route, make sure you make good connections. You need to twist the wires together with pliers to get a good electrical and mechanical connection. Don't just stick the wires in a wire nut and twist. I twist my wires so that some of the insulated part of the wires is also twisted together for a good mechanical connection. Here's a video that shows how.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-xf6KooHl0

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by cavie

Go to HD and spend about $10.00 on wire nuts and a short piece of 14/2 RX maybe some 12/2. Cut out the burned wires and splice in new peices. Go have a beer and call it a day,

Your solution is much too simple to satisfy those who garner their “expertise” from YouTube or their their uncle who was an electrical engineer.

Sometimes real solutions are so easy that people who don’t know the trades will argue that what the honest, trained and experienced professional suggests or does is wrong or insufficient. What so many people think is, you are taking a shortcut so you can get the job done and run to the bank with their check. An honest tradesman will do the job properly with the intent of costing the customer as little money as possible. The dishonest tradesman will go overboard with a repair that will seem impressive to a customer and cost a fortune, giving the customer the impression that their problem was much worse than it actually was — this is the guy who is laughing all of the way to the bank.

Sometimes the most simple solution is the best solution.

Bruce

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by cavie

Not enought wire there to put back without a splice. Must cut back at least 6" to get to good insulation. The methoud I discribed is exactly how the dealer would fix this as there is no way to replace any wires to the first outlet in the circuit. Never mind the down time sitting in the dealers lot for weeks. That can all be repaired saftly in about one hour. Use wire nuts. Not scotch locks.

Many times there is enough slack wire behind the distribution panel to pull through . my have to remove panel to remove any fasteners they may have used to secure the wire . I would not be satisfied with just splicing into the same neutral bar . that bar needs replaced at minimum ,the whole panel should be replaced . no doubt some of the plastic housing is melted .

[FR240FS]

Originally Posted by itat

That’s obviously not right but I’m no electrician and can’t offer any advice. I completely understand your anger about this if the Surveyor factory mis-wired your panel.

I do need to say, however, out of fairness, that Forest River is a very big company with a lot of different brands and factories. If this was done by the the Surveyor factory its fair to call them out for poor work but to slam all of Forest River is unjustified. As far as I know, the factories are mostly independent.

Its justified. Forest River is the parent company and they are responsible as well.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Joe_GA

If you have to go this route, make sure you make good connections. You need to twist the wires together with pliers to get a good electrical and mechanical connection. Don't just stick the wires in a wire nut and twist. I twist my wires so that some of the insulated part of the wires is also twisted together for a good mechanical connection. Here's a video that shows how.

Absolutely no need to tape the wire nuts on. Signs of an amateur.

[DASchell]

Originally Posted by FR240FS

Its justified. Forest River is the parent company and they are responsible as well.

Just to be Clear although not a certified electrician I’m more than capable of repairing this. My thing is not to bring Heck down on a dealer or manufacturer but really to publicize the fact that “someone’s lack of care/concern” could be life threatening to innocent parties. Totally unacceptable in my opinion. I work in Medical Device manufacturing engineering/management and know lack of proper focus can kill. Forest River is the corporate head so in my opinion they are responsible. Quality in any organization starts at the top.

[jkoenig24]

"Should I go ballistic on the dealer or Forest River or both or save my breath?"


Just save your breath. They really don't care.

If they DID care, THOROUGH Quality Control checks would be performed DURING the build and, on EVERY UNIT BEFORE it left the factory. Yes, I know that costs money but, fixing a problem after it leaves the factory has to be crazy expensive (not to mention the bad will it causes). Quality takes time. Workers must be properly trained and then monitored to see that they properly perform the jobs they were trained to do.

Yes, I realize that the above sentiments are simplistic and, sometimes need to be altered / adjusted in the real world BUT, when something has to be done twice (or more) to get it right, something is SERIOUSLY wrong in the process. "Bad" units should be the RARE exception, NOT commonplace as they too often are today.