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Old 03-22-2017, 07:45 PM   #1
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Generator, AC, Converter and Inverter Problems

What would cause the GFCI to trip on an inverter wired to supply power to the load center (WFCO8955PEC) when the generator is turned on?
The GFCI trips on my inverter before the transfer switch generator delay allows power through to the load center. Could it be that both the generator and inverter have grounded commons?

A little more info: Started the Onan 4kw genset on my toy hauler, waited for the power to come on, turned on the AC and something in the load center went clickitty click and I lost generator power. Checked all breakers and didn't find any breakers in the tripped position.

I did find a scorched (looked like the wire was caught between the box and cover) hot lead in the junction box connecting the generator to the coach wiring. Fixed that but still have no power coming into the load center.

Since the load center has the transfer switch attached I tried bipassing the transfer switch which caused the GFCI on my inverter to trip w/o turning the generator on. This leads me to believe that my assumption of grounded commons is the problem and that I need to isolate the inverter from the load center which means adding outlets supplied by only the inverter. I don't really want to do this.....

This doesn't explain the clickitty click I heard and the subsequent power loss from my generator. I didn't want to turn the generator back on until I traced down the problem so I don't know if the generator is actually putting out power.

I have attached a wiring diagram of what I did to install my inverter into the existing load center. Please let me know if something stands out that is of concern.

Gary
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File Type: pdf Sandstorm Generator Inverter Wiring.pdf (37.6 KB, 89 views)
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Old 03-23-2017, 09:54 AM   #2
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With all the questions and problems you have described, I would suggest getting some professional technical help
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:23 AM   #3
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Wow! Quite a complicated install. A couple of points. First off there is no bonding between the ground and the neutral from the shore power side since that is done at or upstream of the pedestal and is the responsibility of the power source. However, the transfer switch generally connects the neutral and ground from the generator...WHEN IT FIRES, since that must be done when the generator is the source of power. Bypassing the main transfer switch will bypass that function as well, depending on how you did it.

I understand why you did this but you do know that all of the outlets (GFCI, Microware and other) only get a total of 20 amps from the inverter, shore power or generator. You do have a 30 amp main in that box, but it is fed by a 20 amp breaker in your now main panel. Of course you also have 2 GFCIs in series (inverter and power panel) and that can cause a lot of errant GFCI trips.

My recommendation is that you need to start somewhere to eliminate potential sources of problems. I would disconnect the output of the transfer switch and then exercise the generator and the shore power to verify that all is well to that point. You should be able to do this by shutting off all breakers in your "main" panel (transfer, AC, HW, Converter) and verify that voltages are present. If they are, you work forward, if they are not, you work backward towards the sources. If you work forward, turn off all loads in your secondary panel and verify functionality one load at a time.

Generally what you are trying to do is more easily (and understandably) achieved by plugging two separate transfer switches into the inverter GFCI and then wiring each to the load breaker for outlets, GFCI, Microwave, etc. That way the inverter is way down stream and will automatically switch out the sources on a breaker by breaker method. Three might be a little too many, especially since the GFCI on the inverter only generally has 2 receptacles.

But...what you have should work...you just need to find out where the glitch is and a GFCI glitch can be maddening.
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Old 03-23-2017, 03:08 PM   #4
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Thank you Scott. I bipassed the TS by disconnecting the generator input wires and hooking them to the secondary breaker panel I added. That would eliminate the neutral-ground connection in the TS or should have. I never started the generator again because I was concerned about the inverter GFCI tripping just from connecting the generator the way I did.

Looking at the wiring diagrams of the Onan generator I have, it shows the neutral and ground terminating at the same location so I believe they are already connected prior to the TS, but I've been known to be wrong... a lot!

My rig is 3 hours away and in an area with no shore power so i can't check that input to the TS unless i use an external generator..which could, potentially, add confusion.

The one thing I didn't do was check for error codes on my generator. I will do that this weekend. it may be that simple to diagnose!

A complicated install it was. The diagram I drew made it a lot easier. The biggest problem I had was getting the plastic, push-in romex strain reliefs out of the load center and wiring the mechanical relay I added. My little fat fingers just didn't fit in the J-box I put the relay into.

Wish me luck in tracking down the problem otherwise I'll have to take NMWildcat's advice and hire someone more knowledgeable than I am.

Thanks again,
Gary



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Originally Posted by ScottBrownstein View Post
Wow! Quite a complicated install. A couple of points. First off there is no bonding between the ground and the neutral from the shore power side since that is done at or upstream of the pedestal and is the responsibility of the power source. However, the transfer switch generally connects the neutral and ground from the generator...WHEN IT FIRES, since that must be done when the generator is the source of power. Bypassing the main transfer switch will bypass that function as well, depending on how you did it.

I understand why you did this but you do know that all of the outlets (GFCI, Microware and other) only get a total of 20 amps from the inverter, shore power or generator. You do have a 30 amp main in that box, but it is fed by a 20 amp breaker in your now main panel. Of course you also have 2 GFCIs in series (inverter and power panel) and that can cause a lot of errant GFCI trips.

My recommendation is that you need to start somewhere to eliminate potential sources of problems. I would disconnect the output of the transfer switch and then exercise the generator and the shore power to verify that all is well to that point. You should be able to do this by shutting off all breakers in your "main" panel (transfer, AC, HW, Converter) and verify that voltages are present. If they are, you work forward, if they are not, you work backward towards the sources. If you work forward, turn off all loads in your secondary panel and verify functionality one load at a time.

Generally what you are trying to do is more easily (and understandably) achieved by plugging two separate transfer switches into the inverter GFCI and then wiring each to the load breaker for outlets, GFCI, Microwave, etc. That way the inverter is way down stream and will automatically switch out the sources on a breaker by breaker method. Three might be a little too many, especially since the GFCI on the inverter only generally has 2 receptacles.

But...what you have should work...you just need to find out where the glitch is and a GFCI glitch can be maddening.
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Old 03-23-2017, 03:38 PM   #5
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That would make sense. That means the Onan has a bonded neutral. When the transfer switch is not connected to the genny, the neutral and ground are therefore not connected together.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:36 PM   #6
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Probably too obvious to mention but I'll throw it out there because it happened to me on my Country Coach.
My Onan had its own breaker that would kick once in awhile. Never did figure out what would cause it. I spent a few days, off and on, looking at schematics and scratching my head. Finally I went back to the generator, that I'd looked at 100's of times, and realized the switch had kicked to the off position. Till then I hadn't recognized it served as a breaker.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:42 PM   #7
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Thanks Bill,

That was one of the first things I checked and it was tripped. It's possible it tripped again but didn't look like it was tripped. Guess I should have checked again! I also, should have checked for error codes as well but I didn't think about it until after I got back home.

The converter has some safety features that shuts it down for various reasons but the manual is unclear how it resets. I read somewhere on these forums that the DC power has to be disconnected from the converter in order for the unit to reset....I can neither confirm or deny that action

Gary
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeDubb View Post
Thanks Bill,

That was one of the first things I checked and it was tripped. It's possible it tripped again but didn't look like it was tripped. Guess I should have checked again! I also, should have checked for error codes as well but I didn't think about it until after I got back home.

The converter has some safety features that shuts it down for various reasons but the manual is unclear how it resets. I read somewhere on these forums that the DC power has to be disconnected from the converter in order for the unit to reset....I can neither confirm or deny that action

Gary
LOL...I always hate to incriminate myself by showing how dumb I can be sometimes! Many times it's the obvious that escapes me though.

You might be right on resetting the converter. I added a Perko on/off switch in-line so I can isolate my converter. Makes it simple to shut the system down without disconnecting battery leads.
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Old 03-24-2017, 04:17 PM   #9
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My coach has a battery disconnect but I added another one at the batteries so I could easily disconnect the inverter as well as the batteries. I used the compartment door for the sewer hose as a mounting point. It fit almost perfectly! Just had to cut out a circlular ring of wood to put in the round hole for something to bolt through. I leave the switch in the "coach" position (position 1) to keep the batteries charged when I'm gone. Position 2 is for the inverter and 1+2 feeds both, of course. I'll shut down both switches and see if that does anything when i turn them back on.

i have a bad habit of pointing out my flaws....like stating that I point out my flaws, lol. The truth keeps me out of trouble.

Gary
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:43 AM   #10
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Fixed

Turned out to be the transfer switch. I replaced it and all is good. I did realize that I need to reroute the power supply to the secondary TS that I installed for the inverter. The secondary TS relay activation needs to come from the generator power going into the primary TS instead of the power coming out of the primary TS. Then the secondary TS would trigger before the primary TS generator time delay switches the power to the generator.

Of course this doesn't guarantee that the inverter GFCI won't still trip!

Shore power input doesn't change but connecting both generator and shore power to supply the coil on the secondary TS would require some additional electonics requiring diodes and possible other components to prevent back flow of power to the generator when shore power is plugged in (now I'm way over my head!). I never have the inverter on when hooked to shore power but that doesn't mean somebody else might try and run both at the same time. Which is where the inverter GFCI triggers a separation between the inverter and other power source.

Gary
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File Type: pdf Sandstorm Generator Inverter Wiring Rev B.pdf (57.7 KB, 28 views)
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:57 AM   #11
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Sounds like your inverter is doing the same as mine. I got a new one from FR after checking all the circuits and not finding any problems. Interestingly, the new one tripped a few times as well.
Finally, several people, both on and off the boards, suggested pulling the inverter apart and replacing the GFCI with a standard duplex receptacle. I was leery of doing this and discussed with a few RV shops in town and they said the same thing. The inverter GFCI is redundant in most rigs or is only feeding the residential fridge and not exposed to any water or shock hazards. So, I replaced the GFCI as suggested, and have absolutely no problems now.
I've been out dry camping as well as in campgrounds, hand checked exposed wire for higher temperatures and all is good.
There might be a downside to doing this, other than voiding the inverter warranty of course. If anyone has a bad experience with doing this please chime in.

Bill
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