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03-24-2017, 12:19 PM
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#1
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Canadian Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Eastern GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,235
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Hughes Autoformer - With or Without Surge Protection
I'll be ordering a 30A Hughes Autoformer in a few weeks. They now have models with "Advanced Surge Protection" (RV2130SP) and the standard model without surge protection (RV2130), so I'd like to get some opinions on whether or not I should buy the SP model. I already have a Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C installed so I'm thinking that it's likely not necessary for me.
__________________
2023 Rockwood Signature 8262RBS
2016 Ford F-250 XLT SuperCrew, 6.2L, 4x4, 6'9" bed
2019 Rockwood Signature 8290BS (2019 - 2022)
2011 Rockwood Signature 8293SS (2015 - 2018)
2010 Rockwood Roo 23SS (2012 - 2014)
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03-24-2017, 12:28 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 10,833
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I just PM'ed my contact at rvpartshop.ca. Great alternative to Border Duties for Canadian Orders, I save significantly on my EMS Progressive 50 amp. They also sell to the US out of NY.
__________________
B and B
2022 Venture RV SportTrek STT 302 VRB Travel Trailer
2018 Heartland Landmark 365 Louisville 5th Wheel
2015 Heartland Bighorn 5th Wheel
2013 FR Rockwood 8289WS 5th Wheel
2012 FR Rockwood 2703 SS Travel Trailer
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03-24-2017, 12:43 PM
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#3
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Canadian Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Eastern GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B and B
I just PM'ed my contact at rvpartshop.ca. Great alternative to Border Duties for Canadian Orders, I save significantly on my EMS Progressive 50 amp. They also sell to the US out of NY.
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Thanks, Brian. I called them and got pricing. They are competitive with the best price I've seen out of the US online (at RVUpgradeStore.com). I just need to determine which model I want to order. My income tax refund cheque will arrive shortly I hope!
__________________
2023 Rockwood Signature 8262RBS
2016 Ford F-250 XLT SuperCrew, 6.2L, 4x4, 6'9" bed
2019 Rockwood Signature 8290BS (2019 - 2022)
2011 Rockwood Signature 8293SS (2015 - 2018)
2010 Rockwood Roo 23SS (2012 - 2014)
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03-25-2017, 09:52 PM
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#4
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Canadian Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Eastern GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,235
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Can anyone provide an opinion on this? Thanks.
__________________
2023 Rockwood Signature 8262RBS
2016 Ford F-250 XLT SuperCrew, 6.2L, 4x4, 6'9" bed
2019 Rockwood Signature 8290BS (2019 - 2022)
2011 Rockwood Signature 8293SS (2015 - 2018)
2010 Rockwood Roo 23SS (2012 - 2014)
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03-25-2017, 11:00 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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I'll be installing one when I get back from spring break.
I too, have an ems, that will be right after the autoformer.
I chose to save the hundred bucks, and get without surge.
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2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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03-25-2017, 11:07 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 10,833
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No need for 2 Surge Suppressors. Auto Transformer in itself with big Iron core smooths out some of the nuisance harmonics. Used them for years on transmitters and such.
__________________
B and B
2022 Venture RV SportTrek STT 302 VRB Travel Trailer
2018 Heartland Landmark 365 Louisville 5th Wheel
2015 Heartland Bighorn 5th Wheel
2013 FR Rockwood 8289WS 5th Wheel
2012 FR Rockwood 2703 SS Travel Trailer
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03-25-2017, 11:20 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Whereever our Berkshire is Parked!
Posts: 7,082
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We have a Autoformer and Progressive setup and love it - complete protection!
__________________
Bob & Anne-Marie [BamaBob & 6 Actual]
| 2017 Berkshire XLT 43A with Ultrasteer Tag | Blue Ox Avail + KarGard II |
| SMI AF-1 Air Brake | 2016 Jeep Cherokee Overland TOAD | Pedego Bikes |
Nights Camped: 2013 - 24 2014 - 42 2015 - 56 Jul 2016 - Fulltime
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03-26-2017, 10:43 AM
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#8
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Canadian Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Eastern GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaBob
We have a Autoformer and Progressive setup and love it - complete protection!
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BamaBob, do you have the newer version with surge protection or the original that doesn't have surge protection?
__________________
2023 Rockwood Signature 8262RBS
2016 Ford F-250 XLT SuperCrew, 6.2L, 4x4, 6'9" bed
2019 Rockwood Signature 8290BS (2019 - 2022)
2011 Rockwood Signature 8293SS (2015 - 2018)
2010 Rockwood Roo 23SS (2012 - 2014)
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03-26-2017, 12:47 PM
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#9
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 79
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The Progressive surge unit is superior to the one in the autoformer. If you have that, there is no need for additional surge protection in the autoformer. Get the vanilla version. I have the Progressive along with the older autoformer. Great combo.
Charlie
__________________
[SIGPIC]
2005 Coachmen Sportscoach Encore 380DS
2019 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited
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03-26-2017, 01:25 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 149
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Just to define a few terms here:
An autoformer is a transformer with a 1:1 ratio (voltage out = voltage in). It will electrically isolate your RV from the shore power. In general, whatever happens on the input line will appear on the output. However, the nature of a transformer is a very large inductor. Inductors do not want to allow a spontaneous change in current. But, an inductor by it self will not get rid of voltage spikes, it just slows down how fast the ramp up and taper off.
Surge suppression is accomplished at the component level with devices known as MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors, if memory serves). MOVs will allow voltage to reach a specific level, and then try to dump any voltage above that level to ground. The specific voltage level that the MOV triggers is determined by the device chosen during design.
The caveat here is that a MOV will have a maximum capacity that it can dump to ground. If the rating of the component is exceeded, the device will fail, and stop protecting.
Where do surges come from??? Usually, the largest and most destructive surges come from lightning strikes to power distribution lines. There is surge suppression designed into the electrical grid, but those devices can be overwhelmed. Additionally, if the lightning strike gets to your power connection before it gets to the surge suppression, you will get the full force of the strike on your power. The closer you are to the lightning strike, the more significant the surges are.
Surges can also occur from rapid changes in the load on the distribution system, but those are usually less severe. A lot of times these surges are caused by animals getting a bit too cozy with the electrical lines. (When I worked for the power company, animals were the most common cause of electrical faults.) There are devices on the distribution grid called reclosers that will detect the fault (a short in the system caused by an animal - or other fault) and will cut off the power to that phase for a few seconds (to hopefully allow the remains to drop off the line) and then reconnect. It will try this several times to get the fault corrected, and if it doesn't, the recloser will lockout and have to be reset by the power company. When that device opens and closes can cause significant surges in the power distribution.
That being said, I believe in a "more the merrier" approach to surge suppression. Since each device has a specific amount it can handle before it breaks down, more suppression devices should yield more voltage protection.
At my home, I have a "whole house" surge suppressor installed at the electric panel. I also have installed surge suppression outlets at all outlets that feed sensitive (or expensive) electronics. Some circuits also have surge suppression power strips on top of that. It's a multi-layered defense. The more suppression is encountered before getting to the electronics yields a greater capacity to protect from those surges...
In the RV, I use a surge suppressor on the shore power line. But, if I know a severe storm is coming, I simply physically unplug the shore power cord from the pedestal and run the genny. It is also possible to have a surge come in on the CATV lines as well (so I disconnect that too).
Many years ago, I had a lightning strike close to my house. The surge came in on the phone line. It literally left my answering machine and a computer smoking on my desk. But, not many rigs or campgrounds have hard-wired phones anymore...
I've run into trouble with the surge suppression and GFCI in my rig tripping the GFCI on the 115 VAC socket in my storage unit (GFCI outlet at storage is required by code, and since I rent storage, I cannot change out the socket). Having a GFCI in the RV triggering the GFCI in the storage can easily be fixed with the autoformer - it electrically isolates the GFCIs.
All that being said, I'd go with the autoformer with surge suppression. I believe it would be your better protection... Surge suppression is cheap, all the electrical systems in your rig are not...
Hope this helps! Cheers!!!
Carl
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03-26-2017, 02:10 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaBob
We have a Autoformer and Progressive setup and love it - complete protection!
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Same.
Put the 100 bucks saved into an ems system.
__________________
2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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03-26-2017, 03:29 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Whereever our Berkshire is Parked!
Posts: 7,082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itat
BamaBob, do you have the newer version with surge protection or the original that doesn't have surge protection?
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Just the original - with the Progressive, you do not need the newer Hughes and the newer Hughes does not do quite the same thing that the Progressive does.
__________________
Bob & Anne-Marie [BamaBob & 6 Actual]
| 2017 Berkshire XLT 43A with Ultrasteer Tag | Blue Ox Avail + KarGard II |
| SMI AF-1 Air Brake | 2016 Jeep Cherokee Overland TOAD | Pedego Bikes |
Nights Camped: 2013 - 24 2014 - 42 2015 - 56 Jul 2016 - Fulltime
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03-26-2017, 03:34 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaBob
Just the original - with the Progressive, you do not need the newer Hughes and the newer Hughes does not do quite the same thing that the Progressive does.
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X2, the same setup I have. If there are power issues I am the guy who will find them. That being said "surge" is the least you need to worry about. Low or high voltage are the common problems. I would just go with the standard Autoformer.
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03-26-2017, 04:48 PM
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#14
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Canadian Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Eastern GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,235
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Thanks everyone. I ordered the standard version from RVPartsShop.ca that B&B recommended (Thanks, Brian!). After the dollar conversion it was actually cheaper than the lowest price I could find from a US online retailer.
In 4 years of use, I've never had the EMS report a surge so I consider the risk to be low and I'll rely solely on the EMS for that protection.
__________________
2023 Rockwood Signature 8262RBS
2016 Ford F-250 XLT SuperCrew, 6.2L, 4x4, 6'9" bed
2019 Rockwood Signature 8290BS (2019 - 2022)
2011 Rockwood Signature 8293SS (2015 - 2018)
2010 Rockwood Roo 23SS (2012 - 2014)
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03-26-2017, 05:34 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,363
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Hughes Autoformer - With or Without Surge Protection
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckabrahamson
Just to define a few terms here:
An autoformer is a transformer with a 1:1 ratio (voltage out = voltage in). It will electrically isolate your RV from the shore power. In general, whatever happens on the input line will appear on the output. However, the nature of a transformer is a very large inductor. Inductors do not want to allow a spontaneous change in current. But, an inductor by it self will not get rid of voltage spikes, it just slows down how fast the ramp up and taper off.
Surge suppression is accomplished at the component level with devices known as MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors, if memory serves). MOVs will allow voltage to reach a specific level, and then try to dump any voltage above that level to ground. The specific voltage level that the MOV triggers is determined by the device chosen during design.
The caveat here is that a MOV will have a maximum capacity that it can dump to ground. If the rating of the component is exceeded, the device will fail, and stop protecting.
Where do surges come from??? Usually, the largest and most destructive surges come from lightning strikes to power distribution lines. There is surge suppression designed into the electrical grid, but those devices can be overwhelmed. Additionally, if the lightning strike gets to your power connection before it gets to the surge suppression, you will get the full force of the strike on your power. The closer you are to the lightning strike, the more significant the surges are.
Surges can also occur from rapid changes in the load on the distribution system, but those are usually less severe. A lot of times these surges are caused by animals getting a bit too cozy with the electrical lines. (When I worked for the power company, animals were the most common cause of electrical faults.) There are devices on the distribution grid called reclosers that will detect the fault (a short in the system caused by an animal - or other fault) and will cut off the power to that phase for a few seconds (to hopefully allow the remains to drop off the line) and then reconnect. It will try this several times to get the fault corrected, and if it doesn't, the recloser will lockout and have to be reset by the power company. When that device opens and closes can cause significant surges in the power distribution.
That being said, I believe in a "more the merrier" approach to surge suppression. Since each device has a specific amount it can handle before it breaks down, more suppression devices should yield more voltage protection.
At my home, I have a "whole house" surge suppressor installed at the electric panel. I also have installed surge suppression outlets at all outlets that feed sensitive (or expensive) electronics. Some circuits also have surge suppression power strips on top of that. It's a multi-layered defense. The more suppression is encountered before getting to the electronics yields a greater capacity to protect from those surges...
In the RV, I use a surge suppressor on the shore power line. But, if I know a severe storm is coming, I simply physically unplug the shore power cord from the pedestal and run the genny. It is also possible to have a surge come in on the CATV lines as well (so I disconnect that too).
Many years ago, I had a lightning strike close to my house. The surge came in on the phone line. It literally left my answering machine and a computer smoking on my desk. But, not many rigs or campgrounds have hard-wired phones anymore...
I've run into trouble with the surge suppression and GFCI in my rig tripping the GFCI on the 115 VAC socket in my storage unit (GFCI outlet at storage is required by code, and since I rent storage, I cannot change out the socket). Having a GFCI in the RV triggering the GFCI in the storage can easily be fixed with the autoformer - it electrically isolates the GFCIs.
All that being said, I'd go with the autoformer with surge suppression. I believe it would be your better protection... Surge suppression is cheap, all the electrical systems in your rig are not...
Hope this helps! Cheers!!!
Carl
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Great write-up and I agree 100%. I have taken it one step further and have this setup: pedestal => Progressive Industries SSP-50XL (their surge-only protector) => Hughes Autoformer with surge protection => Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C => camper's main panel.
My theory is to sacrifice the basic surge protector (the least expensive device in the bunch) before the others.
Although the Autoformer and EMS have their own surge protection, I would rather not HAVE to rely on them ... then send them in for service when the MOVs are shot.
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03-27-2017, 07:12 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Whereever our Berkshire is Parked!
Posts: 7,082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itat
In 4 years of use, I've never had the EMS report a surge so I consider the risk to be low and I'll rely solely on the EMS for that protection.
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I have found the most valuable feature of the EMS is to detect wiring and electrical issues at the pedestal when you hook up. Typically, the first thing I will do on arrival is hook us up to power and hang around for the 2 min until the Progressive gives me the electrical system report. Once I see power is A-OK, I go ahead and set up the rest of the camp.
You are right, I don't think I have ever experienced a surge in 20+ years - but all it will take is 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by 325BH
Great write-up and I agree 100%. I have taken it one step further and have this setup: pedestal => Progressive Industries SSP-50XL (their surge-only protector) => Hughes Autoformer with surge protection => Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C => camper's main panel.
My theory is to sacrifice the basic surge protector (the least expensive device in the bunch) before the others.
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You certainly are well protected!! We have a similar setup since the Berk XLT has its own on-board EMS - I wired our old Progressive 50AMP EMS in front so it would be the first to go in the event of "bad things happening"
Nice thing about Progressive is the lifetime warranty, so you will not even sacrifice your basic surge protector - just send it back to Progressive for repair
__________________
Bob & Anne-Marie [BamaBob & 6 Actual]
| 2017 Berkshire XLT 43A with Ultrasteer Tag | Blue Ox Avail + KarGard II |
| SMI AF-1 Air Brake | 2016 Jeep Cherokee Overland TOAD | Pedego Bikes |
Nights Camped: 2013 - 24 2014 - 42 2015 - 56 Jul 2016 - Fulltime
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03-27-2017, 07:24 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Between Pickles Gap and Toad Suck, AR
Posts: 6,070
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I am simple minded, but I can't figure out how to incorporate a fixed-mount Autoformer inside battery bay and also continue to use the portable EMS50.
??
__________________
"Next to prayer, fishing is the most personal relationship of man" Herbert Hoover
"American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God"Lewis Grizzard
FROG AR-0019-242
2016 GMC Denali 3500Dually--2017 CC 36CKTS
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03-27-2017, 08:29 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandJCarm
I am simple minded, but I can't figure out how to incorporate a fixed-mount Autoformer inside battery bay and also continue to use the portable EMS50.
??
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You would have to put the ems behind the autoformer.
__________________
2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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03-27-2017, 08:38 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Between Pickles Gap and Toad Suck, AR
Posts: 6,070
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny kustom
You would have to put the ems behind the autoformer.
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Exactly. And since the EMS is portable and I want the Autoformer to be permanently mounted, I can't figure out how to do that combo.
I would have to get a portable Autoformer, best I can figure.
__________________
"Next to prayer, fishing is the most personal relationship of man" Herbert Hoover
"American by Birth, Southern by the Grace of God"Lewis Grizzard
FROG AR-0019-242
2016 GMC Denali 3500Dually--2017 CC 36CKTS
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03-27-2017, 09:02 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Whereever our Berkshire is Parked!
Posts: 7,082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandJCarm
Exactly. And since the EMS is portable and I want the Autoformer to be permanently mounted, I can't figure out how to do that combo.
I would have to get a portable Autoformer, best I can figure.
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Actually, the Autoformer comes from the factory as a portable unit. You have to purchase a wiring harness to permanently install it.
Maybe you can consider permanently installing the Autoformer, plug it into the (portable) Progressive EMS, leave the Progressive EMS in your bay with the Autoformer and run your 50(30)AMP cable to the pedestal?
__________________
Bob & Anne-Marie [BamaBob & 6 Actual]
| 2017 Berkshire XLT 43A with Ultrasteer Tag | Blue Ox Avail + KarGard II |
| SMI AF-1 Air Brake | 2016 Jeep Cherokee Overland TOAD | Pedego Bikes |
Nights Camped: 2013 - 24 2014 - 42 2015 - 56 Jul 2016 - Fulltime
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