Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-29-2016, 04:23 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
OntarioFireFighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 145
One thing I will correct here...

AGM batteries DO vent; just at a much, much lower rate than traditional flooded/wet type batteries.

A typical AGM vent remains closed until such time as the internal pressure in the battery casing hits about 7psig - then it will vent, until the pressure drops below that level.

Hard fast charging will increase the internal pressure of the battery much more than a lower charge rate will; and lead to more offgassing (and a reduction in battery capacity and life).

The electrochemical process is the same - an electrolyte solution in contact with lead/conductive plates... major difference is physical construction - in an AGM configuration, the electrolyte is in a fibreglass mat material, installed under pressure from the battery casing.

The advice you'se gotten about using two, new, identical batteries is absolutely correct; same with minimizing cable distance, and maximizing (within reason) cable size.

Personally, I'd suggest two 6v in series, rather than two 12v in parallel, but either will work...
__________________

__________________
2014 Grey Wolf 28BH, behind a 2015 F350 Diesel Crew Cab

Nights Camped 2015: 37

Nights Booked 2016: 44
Nights Camped 2016: 41
OntarioFireFighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 04:23 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,334
My only comment to that is... Better to murder that battery than be a zombie while camping.....

Maybe I should stick to what I have and just toss in a new battery every year. They aren't all that expensive anyway. 100 bucks is 2 tanks of diesel..maybe.
__________________

__________________
SidecarFlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 04:28 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
WolfWhistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Hilliard, Florida
Posts: 2,902
Side Car Flip ... that 12.5 in the morning is about 80% ... or roughly 3/5 left in reserve ... based on taking them no lower than 11.9 - 12.0. Plus if they were just under a load it could be higher. Which sounds good. In my experience gassing (fuming) only occurs with High charge or discharge rates. . normally you shouldn't detect any, but, I get your concern, I would be as well. I wouldn't be without a good monitor like the Trimetric TN-2030 ... takes the guessing out if it all. You will know how full and what you have left. IMO if you decide AGM, look at Trojan's T-105 AGM; if you take care of them with proper charging etc, there is probably none better. They could "force" you to get a better charger that will drastically cut charge times. Keep in mind a pair of these higher Ah batteries will increase charging time. The charger should dictate charge times.
WW
__________________
XLR Hyperlite 29HFS
Ram 2500 6.7L CTD
Triumph Thunderbird

A Modder's work is never done!
WolfWhistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 07:56 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip View Post
I sleep on a CPAP machine at night (running through a xantrex PSW inverter.)
My wife and I both use CPAP and have done so when dry camping. Rather than use an inverter to change the 12v DC to 120v AC, we have 12v adapters purchased from the CPAP manufacturer. It's more efficient because the CPAP actually runs off DC.

We have 2 g27 12v deep cycle batteries in trolling motor battery cases from Wal-Mart. They're our power source when dry-camping in the trailer. When not camping the 12v adapters described above come in the house with us and the batteries live on our back porch, plugged into a Battery Tender Junior to maintain the charge.

If we suffer a power failure, they're our backup power system for the CPAP. The battery cases have carry handles and cigarette lighter sockets which fit the CPAP power adapter plugs.

A Honda 2000eu is our recharge power source. We've only used it when camping but, if the home power outage were prolonged (we live in hurricane territory) it would serve that purpose at home, too.
__________________
- 1969 Coleman Williamsburg (with original canvas!)
- 2000 Coleman Mesa
- 2014 Shamrock 21DK
- 1999 Chevrolet Astro
- 2005 Dodge Durango Limited 4x2 5L V8 Hemi

- 2016 Ford F-150 SCrew Lariat 4x2 3.5L V6 Ecoboost
chriscowles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 09:00 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
camaraderie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by spock123 View Post
Which ones?


Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums
Just for fun I took the part 1 of the 12V Side of Life and found the things I disagreed with. There are many. Here are the statements and opinions I disagree with: (Bolded what I disagree with and wrote my own opinions in red.)

Slower charging and discharging rates are more efficient. This is meaningless in a charging situation. Your goal is to get the battery charged as fast as possible because running your generator to charge any battery is VERY inefficient and you want it over as quickly as possilble. This statement means it takes less WATTAGE to charge a battery at 5 amps rather than 50 amps...but it makes NO sense to run your generator 10x longer.
Practically all batteries used in RV applications are Lead-Acid type batteries. Even after over a century of use, they still offer the best price to power ratio. NO... actually lithium batteries provide a far better bang for your buck but they are prohibitively expensive for most.
In my opinion, the standard flooded cell battery offers better overall performance for the price and will probably last a lot longer in most common RV applications. Trojan specs out wet cells as lasting 10% more cycles with perfect care in lab conditions. AGM's will out perform them in actual use since batteries are so often neglected.
Deep cycle batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% repeatedly, and have much thicker plates. While they MAY be discharged as much as 80%...there is a HEAVY price to be paid in life cycles compared to 50% discharge....you lose 1/3 AT LEAST of your battery life.

The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are solid Lead plates - not sponge. Completely false. Deep cycle batteries typically use a PASTE of lead and antimony and other proprietary ingredients and a spongy surface provides MORE reactive surface area and is desireable! The only pure lead plate deep cycles I am aware of are the TPPL AGM's by Odyssey which are both expensive and excellent.
Most flooded batteries should be charged at no more than the "C/10" rate for any sustained period. "C/10" is the battery capacity in amp/hours divided by 10. Sorry....the goal is to charge quickly and wet cells will accept bulk charging at C/20-25 while AGM's will typically accept at at least twice that. Once the battery reaches 70-75% SOC ...then it will resist higher charge rates.
The truth is, most of the RVs on the road have very poorly designed battery charging systems courtesy of the factory. Why? Well, cost plays a key role in deciding what equipment a RV will have installed when it's sold. Most RVs depend on the 12volt converter to charge the house batteries. In most cases, that's a very poor compromise! Totally dated info...I'm not aware of ANY mfr. using anything less than a 3 stage charger for the last 4-5 years.

The best chargers on the market are 3-stage chargers. NO... the best chargers on the market are 4 stage chargers which periodically EQ the batteries so they avoid sulfation.
Float Charge:The 3rd stage of 3-stage battery charging. After batteries reach full charge, charging voltage is reduced.. NO...Float begins BEFORE full charge is reached and continues afterwards to maintain a full charge.
Since the converter is designed to not exceed a voltage of about 13.5 volts, it will never fully charge your batteries. Again...dated information...converters will supply roughly 14.5 volts to begin...and 13.5 volts WILL fully charge a battery...eventually...as will ANY voltage higher than FULL (12.7).
Also, after it has succeeded in partially charging your batteries, it will then commence to boil off electrolyte, as the "float" voltage is too high (should be about 13.2 volts max.). Dated and untrue today.
http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/voltchart2.gif differs from similar chart earlier on the page. Which chart should we rely on for battery state of charge? (The latter is closer.) SOC= Measured at rest voltage....minus 11.4...divided by 1.5 and multiplied by 100.
Example...measured voltage 12.2 -11.4=.8 /1.5 x100=53% charged.

Allow the battery to sit for six hours with no load or charger connected
24 hours is the proper wait time. 6 is better than nothing. Don't believe it?
Take a new battery and charge it fully. Remove the negative terminal. Measure it in 6 hours and you are guaranteed to have over 12.7V...since 12.7 is 100% full you are getting the surface charge voltage. This happens on ALL batteries so even if you read 12.7 on an older battery...it could be 12.2 and trouble!
some charging current will have to be applied to the batteries periodically during the storage period. NOT true for storage periods of 3 months or less for wet cells. Not true for storage periods of 6 months or less of AGMS (actually probably a year!) . Self discharge of a fully charged battery is 10% or less a month in moderate temperatures and much less in freezing confitions. 1% or less for AGM's.) Exception...if storing in FL or Arizona...you may need to apply a charge sooner. Batteries will NOT freeze if at least 70% SOC is observed. This means...charge fully and you'll have at least 70% 3 months later with no danger of freezing and NO need to keep a charge on them. (Assumes disconnected negative wire so no parasitic drain.)
Storage: It is a real good idea to check at the battery with an ammeter to ensure that there is no current drain. Simply disconnect the negative.

Invest in a good digital voltmeter and use it.If you're gonna invest in something...invest in an AC/DC Clamp meter so you can see what is going on! Voltmeters are good but limited. A $50buck clamp/meter will be a better investment. If you boondock...get a true battery monitor before anything else. Victron or Trimetric.


__________________
________
Cam
2015 Georgetown 280DS
2014 Vespa LX150 2014 StellaAuto 125
camaraderie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 10:09 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscowles View Post
My wife and I both use CPAP and have done so when dry camping. Rather than use an inverter to change the 12v DC to 120v AC, we have 12v adapters purchased from the CPAP manufacturer. It's more efficient because the CPAP actually runs off DC.

We have 2 g27 12v deep cycle batteries in trolling motor battery cases from Wal-Mart. They're our power source when dry-camping in the trailer. When not camping the 12v adapters described above come in the house with us and the batteries live on our back porch, plugged into a Battery Tender Junior to maintain the charge.

If we suffer a power failure, they're our backup power system for the CPAP. The battery cases have carry handles and cigarette lighter sockets which fit the CPAP power adapter plugs.

A Honda 2000eu is our recharge power source. We've only used it when camping but, if the home power outage were prolonged (we live in hurricane territory) it would serve that purpose at home, too.
I checked on CPAP.com and I cannot get a DC power cord for my unit, I guess it's too old..

No issue with backup power at home on the farm, we have to have power to pump water for the stock, heat the barns, power the shop and house so I own a 25 KW diesel, skid mounted standby genset, plumbed into my bulk diesel storage tank (1000 gallons). It's on an automatic vacuum transfer switch that is rated for 250 amps inductive load at 220 volts, plenty enough to run the place. The only thing I have to do is start it weekly and make sure the batteries are good... dang batteries again. They have a constant trickle charge and are flooded cell starting batteries. 15 seconds after we loose line power, the genny starts and 45 seconds after that it assumes the full load. When the unit senses stable line power, it cycles out and shuts down.

So, if I'm sleeping, my machine barely misses a beat. If we loose power at night the only way we can tell is the clocks are blinking. The genny is out by the barn, you cannot hear it in the house at all.

I didn't wire it, like I said, I'm electrically deficient. I had it wired by a certified and licensed electrician. I did the mechanical install however. It was a government surplus unit, has a John Deere turbocharged diesel engine and a Westinghouse generator head.

I have one of those Champoin 2000 watt inverters for the camper. Nice little unit, real quiet, super light, starts one pull and runs a whole weekend off an on, on about 1/2 gallon of gas. I'm very happy with it, Best part was it was 449 bucks new, delivered to my front porch.

I would have bought a Honda or a Yamaha but the price scared me away and the Champ has excellent reviews. I have a Honda engine on a garden tiller thats been a constant PITA from day one and I had a Honda engine on a pressure washer that threw a rod and not from me not changing the oil either. With that, I'm pretty much done with Honda powered stuff but the Yamaha and the Honda are way overpriced (compared the the Champion). Was a slam dunk for me.

I looked at the battery monitors mentioned in the above posts. It looks intimidating with shunts and all, for me to put in, not sure I'm capable and not sure if the cost ($150.00) justifies the end.

If I'm 'murdering' my present deep cycle and it pukes next year, I can get another for less than 100 bucks and go another year or 2 or get into 2 6 volt golf cart batteries when this one pukes.. Lots of options. I do need to physically measure how much room is available, it is a truck camper so room is at a premium. Something I'll get into this winter. The camper will 'sleep' in a heated equipment shop with my truck. I winterized it last weekend and then scratched my head and asked myself why I did that. The camper will never be below freezing, I keep the shop at 60 all the time.... oh well.

I see they now have a mount where you can physically mount a second battery under the bed of the truck, on the truck frame but in my view that could be an issue maintenance wise.

I do like the idea of keeping heavy items (like batteries and water tanks) as low as possible. Keeps the Cg low and adds to the stability of the camper and truck.
__________________
SidecarFlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 10:31 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Mountain Foothills of Southern Alberta
Posts: 635
Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
Just for fun I took the part 1 of the 12V Side of Life and found the things I disagreed with. There are many. Here are the statements and opinions I disagree with: (Bolded what I disagree with and wrote my own opinions in red.)
Thank you Cam!

There is a lot of false info in that write up.
I was just about to reply to spock123, but you beat me to it.

__________________

2007 Surveyor SV230
- 200 Watts Solar/MPPT Controller - 230 AH Battery Bank - 600 watt PSW Inverter - (2) 2000 watt Inverter Generators - LED Lighting - Boon Docking 99% of the time.
2009 F150 - 5.4 Litre - 6 speed - Tow Package
boondocking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 11:30 PM   #38
rbq
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Posts: 303
Just as a report of my CPAP useage. I use an AGM battery that I bought at Cabelas. Has worked well for me. I use a 12 volt adapter for my Respironics System One CPAP and can get 4 nights of useage with my battery before having to recharge. Obviously don't have the humidifier turned on when on DC.
__________________
2001 Chevy Silverado
2011 Rockwood Roo 233S
rbq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 11:44 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbq View Post
Just as a report of my CPAP useage. I use an AGM battery that I bought at Cabelas. Has worked well for me. I use a 12 volt adapter for my Respironics System One CPAP and can get 4 nights of useage with my battery before having to recharge. Obviously don't have the humidifier turned on when on DC.
I've gotten accustomed to not using a humidifier when camping anyway. It's usually humid enough in the camper in the summer and I don't have ac. My humidifier is a stand alone unit anyway, a Fischer / Patel I think.

I know that sounds weird (no ac) but the entire top sides of the Backpack open up and are screened do you don't need ac. It's like sleeping outside, inside....and it has a powered roof fan vent for my wife who passes gas in the night...lol (she don't read this forum so I'm safe (I think at least) posting that tid bit....

In retrospect, I probably do to, but I'm sleeping.....
__________________
SidecarFlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2016, 12:18 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 638
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip View Post
... I own a 25 KW diesel, skid mounted standby genset, plumbed into my bulk diesel storage tank (1000 gallons).
My condo neighbors would likely object to that approach or, worse, demand that I share.
__________________

__________________
- 1969 Coleman Williamsburg (with original canvas!)
- 2000 Coleman Mesa
- 2014 Shamrock 21DK
- 1999 Chevrolet Astro
- 2005 Dodge Durango Limited 4x2 5L V8 Hemi

- 2016 Ford F-150 SCrew Lariat 4x2 3.5L V6 Ecoboost
chriscowles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery, cat

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by




ForestRiverForums.com is not in any way associated with Forest River, Inc. or its associated RV manufacturing divisions.

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03 AM.