Is DW right? Was it bad to leave the battery in the trailer over winter?

[camaraderie]

Just a small correction for the record. You have SEALED batteries...there are two types of sealed batteries...AGM/Gel...where the liquid is eliminated and "maintenance free" which are actually standard wet cells (and priced that way) with large sealed water reservoir and internal valving to return condensate to the battery rather than vent it to the atmosphere. These are most often sold as starting batteries OR dual purpose batts.
In an overcharging situation the MF type wet cells can be boiled off...but that will generally quickly result in deformation of the case.... and a short as Herk said. Since that doesn't seem to be the case, I don't think you're at much risk this weekend.
If you have one of those $20 laser heat/temp guns...it wouldn't hurt to point it at the batt after being plugged in a while and make sure you aren't getting any readings over about 120 degress which would indicate a shorted cell.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by Kaadk

...DW's under the impression we'll need to buy a new battery because I didn't pull the battery and bring in the house and hook it up to a charger, yada yada yada...

I think you better get the salt and pepper out to use on that crow you're going to be served by DW.

[Kaadk]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Just a small correction for the record. You have SEALED batteries...there are two types of sealed batteries...AGM/Gel...where the liquid is eliminated and "maintenance free" which are actually standard wet cells (and priced that way) with large sealed water reservoir and internal valving to return condensate to the battery rather than vent it to the atmosphere. These are most often sold as starting batteries OR dual purpose batts.
In an overcharging situation the MF type wet cells can be boiled off...but that will generally quickly result in deformation of the case.... and a short as Herk said. Since that doesn't seem to be the case, I don't think you're at much risk this weekend.
If you have one of those $20 laser heat/temp guns...it wouldn't hurt to point it at the batt after being plugged in a while and make sure you aren't getting any readings over about 120 degress which would indicate a shorted cell.

I believe it's a basic 'maintenance free' (ACDelco ACDM24DC). If I have to replace (assuming I'm gonna have to) I'll want to switch to a true deep cycle, which is why I don't want to rush buying one. Quick searches around here are only turning up marine batteries. And if I go through the dealer, I'm pretty sure he's just gonna replace with another marine dual purpose.

[Kaadk]

Ok, so further follow ups. The battery is now at local battery shop to see if it can be revived, but considering the look of shock on their face when I told him the battery was down to 1v, I'm thinking it's dead.

I went with this particular shop because they're listed as the local Trojan dealer, and Trojan's seem to highly recommended on here. I was quoted a price of $169 for a Trojan 24TMX which is a lot less then I expected to have to pay for a good deep cycle.

Anybody have any recommendations on if this is the way to go? If I'm gonna spend the money, I want to spend it right and get the best quality I can (afford).

[camaraderie]

The Trojan 24TMX is a fine battery...but it is still a group 24 which is kinda dead minimum since you only get to use 42 amphours before a recharge is needed.
Since you're replacing...now is the time to consider if you need more capacity, if you have room for more capacity & how you plan to make these batteries last.

BEST scenario would be if you have room for a couple of 6V golfcart batteries which would take you to over 200 amp hours@ 12V. They can be had at Sams/Costco under various labels typically made by Johnson Controls and for not much more $$ than the Trojan group 24.
BETTER scenario would be to see if you have space for a single Group 31 or Group 27 deep cycle Trojan and improve your capacity 20-30%.
GOOD scenario is as you suggest...subbing an excellent group24 trojan for a dual purpose dealer money saver.
If you don't boondock and are always plugged in...GOOD is good enough...otherwise think about going a bit further.
Get one of these too...so parasitic loads don't get you in the future!
8 bucks at Amazon.

[Kaadk]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

The Trojan 24TMX is a fine battery...but it is still a group 24 which is kinda dead minimum since you only get to use 42 amphours before a recharge is needed.
Since you're replacing...now is the time to consider if you need more capacity, if you have room for more capacity & how you plan to make these batteries last.

BEST scenario would be if you have room for a couple of 6V golfcart batteries which would take you to over 200 amp hours@ 12V. They can be had at Sams/Costco under various labels typically made by Johnson Controls and for not much more $$ than the Trojan group 24.
BETTER scenario would be to see if you have space for a single Group 31 or Group 27 deep cycle Trojan and improve your capacity 20-30%.
GOOD scenario is as you suggest...subbing an excellent group24 trojan for a dual purpose dealer money saver.
If you don't boondock and are always plugged in...GOOD is good enough...otherwise think about going a bit further.
Get one of these too...so parasitic loads don't get you in the future!
8 bucks at Amazon.

I pretty much never boondock, every place we've been to has power, but I do occasionally go turn the fridge on on propane out at the storage yard about 24 hrs before taking off on a trip. I'm not opposed to boondocking, we might have for needed to for a concert weekend if DW could have gotten the time off work, but so far we haven't.

As far as size, I could possibly fit 2 Group 24s, as my battery box only takes up 1/2 the space on my tongue, the other half is my marker light switch:



This box could be easily moved somewhere else and then I'd just need to get a larger battery box. But considering we don't boondock, I don't know if it would be worth it at this time.

And I do have a disconnect, the plunger style under the fridge, that I use whenever I'm not hooked up except for that pre-24 fridge running time. So I don't think it was parasitic loads that pulled it down, but instead something that caused the battery to not hold a charge. To recap the whole scenario:

1) Put TT in storage for winter, hit disconnect.
2) Had a heck of a cold winter, worried about battery, started this thread.
3) Pulled battery once snow melted enough to get to TT, was at 12v.
4) Put on charger, charged up to 13.xx (don't remember exactly what)
5) Put back in TT, went out on first trip.
6) Parked after first trip, hit disconnect.
7) Went out on second trip, first location. Still no problems.
8) Went from first location to second location, still no problems.
9) Hooked up at second location, was plugged in so didn't pay attention to problems.
10) Came home, had no power to jack. Assumed I blew fuse like I used before I learned where to stop the jack, checked fuse. All seemed ok. Plugged in, jack worked fine.
11) Hooked up TT while plugged in so jacked worked, went to storage lot.
12) Still no power to jack. Put jack down plugged into TV.
13) Tried to put slide out to get to battery disconnect, no power to slide, plugged back into TV and put slide out, hit disconnect, put slide back in.
14) Unhooked from TV, checked voltage, 8v. Thought "Oh Sh*t" and revived this thread.
15) Went on third trip, used TV and/or plugged in for all power needs.
16) Came home, unpacked without unhooking trailer, dropped off at dealer's for other work (tagged a tree back in step 9 and needed to get the eaves-trough replaced)
17) Pulled battery to bring in. Checked battery, 1v.
18) Brought to Trojan dealer, left with him to see if there's any hope

and that pretty much brings us up to date.

So as far as I can figure it, all that time it was plugged in and/or hooked up to the TV it should have been charging the battery, but wasn't. As far as I know, it hasn't charged since I had it on the battery charger before my first trip. I've checked any resetable CBs and fuses in the TT that I could find, and all seem ok.

My assumptions are that since all my 12v works when plugged in that my converter is working fine, and even if it wasn't then the battery should have been charging anytime I was connect to the TV. Leading me to the final conclusion that yes, the battery is dead, and even if it wasn't, just by being purged down to 1v it's still probably dead.

[pkurek]

I work on boats for a living and deal with battery issues all the time. A battery not fully charged and left in the cold will freeze and it will be junk. You can tell by the bulged out sides. A battery can have 12.5 volts but no amperage output. Best and way to test is with a load tester. Can get a cheap one at harbor freight. If the caps can come off, checking the specific gravity with a tester availble at any auto parts store is good too. Example a battery rated at 800 cca fully charged might show 12.5v but only have 300 cca and will not get any better. Also some permenant mount battery chargers only charge and shutoff when the battery reaches a specified voltage as the onboard chargers on boats. The battery really isn't getting fully charged amperage wise. A portable charger with a meter charges by amperage. Also deep cycle batteries charge better on a low amp setting such as 2 amps, which is used in most tt. Not sure what kind of charger is in my or any tt.

[camaraderie]

Originally Posted by Kaadk

I pretty much never boondock,
Then your single group24 is fine... no need to get another except as backup security for a failure...but since they are so readily available...I'd pass on that.

And I do have a disconnect, the plunger style under the fridge, that I use whenever I'm not hooked up except for that pre-24 fridge running time. So I don't think it was parasitic loads that pulled it down
I still think it was parasitic loads at the ROOT cause which pulled the battery down and that you should put a clamp meter on your positive wire with that switch thrown to off to see if that is true. That may have caused your other issues...OR...I could be wrong...but those switches often don't take care of separately wired parasitic loads. The off switch connected directly to the negative terminal and ALL negative wires terminated in front of it insures no parasites....just as if you removed all negative wires from the terminal...but more convenient. The clamp meter test would tell you if I'm right or wrong on that suspicion and if the "off" terminal is worth adding.

1) Put TT in storage for winter, hit disconnect.
2) Had a heck of a cold winter, worried about battery, started this thread.
3) Pulled battery once snow melted enough to get to TT, was at 12v.
How did you measure the 12V...with a digital meter and disconnected from the trailer? If so and you saw 12.0 then the battery was depleted to around 40%...and a battery at a 40% state of charge will FREEZE at 5 degrees Farenheit. Could this be your killer?
4) Put on charger, charged up to 13.xx (don't remember exactly what)
If after charging you didn't wait 24 hours with it disconnected to measure it, then ALL you are measuring at 13.x volts is surface charge left by the charger and NOT the state of charge of the battery. The battery could easily have been essentially dead and still giving a reading of 13+.
5) Put back in TT, went out on first trip.
6) Parked after first trip, hit disconnect.
7) Went out on second trip, first location. Still no problems.
8) Went from first location to second location, still no problems.
9) Hooked up at second location, was plugged in so didn't pay attention to problems.
10) Came home, had no power to jack. Assumed I blew fuse like I used before I learned where to stop the jack, checked fuse. All seemed ok. Plugged in, jack worked fine.
11) Hooked up TT while plugged in so jacked worked, went to storage lot.
12) Still no power to jack. Put jack down plugged into TV.
13) Tried to put slide out to get to battery disconnect, no power to slide, plugged back into TV and put slide out, hit disconnect, put slide back in.
14) Unhooked from TV, checked voltage, 8v. Thought "Oh Sh*t" and revived this thread.
15) Went on third trip, used TV and/or plugged in for all power needs.
16) Came home, unpacked without unhooking trailer, dropped off at dealer's for other work (tagged a tree back in step 9 and needed to get the eaves-trough replaced)
17) Pulled battery to bring in. Checked battery, 1v.
18) Brought to Trojan dealer, left with him to see if there's any hope

and that pretty much brings us up to date.

All explainable by a parasitic drain that allowed the battery to deplete to freezable levels (note...fully charged doesn't freeze except in Antarctica!)
Alternatively explainable by a worn out and aging battery freezing due to normal self discharge of 10% a month or so.
Alternatively explainable by aged battery cell failure due to sulfation, vibration short, exposed grids (low water) or contaminants,
Alternatively explainable by a dead charger or loss of proper charging function.
No way to tell without disecting the battery.

So as far as I can figure it, all that time it was plugged in and/or hooked up to the TV it should have been charging the battery, but wasn't. As far as I know, it hasn't charged since I had it on the battery charger before my first trip. I've checked any resettable CBs and fuses in the TT that I could find, and all seem ok.
Simple way to check is to plug in somewhere and attach your start battery to the charger. You should see no less than 13.2 volts...or initially over 14. If you do...then the converter/charger is working and your problem is the battery...not the charger. A broken battery won't take a charge from a working charger!

My assumptions are that since all my 12v works when plugged in that my converter is working fine, and even if it wasn't then the battery should have been charging anytime I was connect to the TV. Leading me to the final conclusion that yes, the battery is dead, and even if it wasn't, just by being purged down to 1v it's still probably dead.

Oh...it is dead alright! The real challenge is to avoid murdering battery #2!

[Kaadk]

Well, yet another update. I finally heard back from the Trojan dealer. They claim the battery's fine. Holding a charge and providing the correct amps.

So what could I be missing here? I don't want to just throw it back in and result in another dead battery after a couple more camping trips.

1) I assumed that the converter was working since all my 12v systems worked when plugged in. Was this wrong?

2) I assumed that the converter was supplying power to recharge the battery, since all the fuses and resetable CBs I could find checked out. Was this wrong?

3) I assumed that even if the converter wasn't working, the TV should have been recharging the battery, since all the 12v systems worked when the 7 pin was hooked up. Was this wrong?

4) I assumed the factory disconnect took care of all parasitic loads since it was fine all last year, sitting for up to 6 week stretches at some points with no issues. Was this wrong?

I'm confused to what to check next. I was all set to just go ahead and replace the battery, and in fact I still might, but now I'm worried that whatever's now wrong with the TT is still wrong and it'll kill my new battery too.

[Phil57]

If you have a MM check voltage coming into the battery from the charger. Make sure it was correctly connected and clean and tight connections.

[camaraderie]

Kaadk...may I suggest you get yourself a $10 buck digital voltmeter at home depot or Amazon. then you can use the probes to test at the various points in your chains of cables and devices to see exactly what you are getting and when. i.e. check the voltage at the back of the converter...then check the voltage at the battery cable ends...then on the battery terminals...then at the 7 pin connection with the TV running for voltage...then check at the ends of those trailer connections to see if you have the same voltage. THAT will give you confidence in what is working and what is not.
As to the disconnect switch...you need a clamp meter to see if there is a parasitic drain after you hit disconnect. That would set you back another 40 bucks more than the multimeter...worth it IMO.

Since you "never boondock" ...I wouldn't worry too much about the battery once you know everything else is working and there are no drains since it will never be powering anything alone.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Since you "never boondock" ...I wouldn't worry too much about the battery once you know everything else is working and there are no drains since it will never be powering anything alone.

You will still need a battery for the breakaway circuit. We need to track down the "open" between the converter and the battery.

There are two current limiters between the converter and the battery. One AT the battery and one at the metal umbilical junction box.

Pres on the short side and feel for a "button" and see if it can be pressed in; also examine the current limiter for corrosion and damage.

Here are some photos of what to look for.

[Kaadk]

Originally Posted by Herk7769

You will still need a battery for the breakaway circuit. We need to track down the "open" between the converter and the battery.

There are two current limiters between the converter and the battery. One AT the battery and one at the metal umbilical junction box.

Pres on the short side and feel for a "button" and see if it can be pressed in; also examine the current limiter for corrosion and damage.

Here are some photos of what to look for.

I only remember finding one. I'll check again this weekend when I pick the trailer back up.

[Kaadk]

Originally Posted by camaraderie

Kaadk...may I suggest you get yourself a $10 buck digital voltmeter at home depot or Amazon. then you can use the probes to test at the various points in your chains of cables and devices to see exactly what you are getting and when. i.e. check the voltage at the back of the converter...then check the voltage at the battery cable ends...then on the battery terminals...then at the 7 pin connection with the TV running for voltage...then check at the ends of those trailer connections to see if you have the same voltage. THAT will give you confidence in what is working and what is not.
As to the disconnect switch...you need a clamp meter to see if there is a parasitic drain after you hit disconnect. That would set you back another 40 bucks more than the multimeter...worth it IMO.

Since you "never boondock" ...I wouldn't worry too much about the battery once you know everything else is working and there are no drains since it will never be powering anything alone.

I did pick up a new DMM around the time I pulled the battery, now to just put it to more use than checking the battery's voltage.