New Trailer - Electrical System Advice

Aaron1121 · 03-07-2018, 11:31 PM

Hello!

I'm looking for advice and comments!

We are taking delivery of a Surveyor 247BHDS in a couple of weeks. We typically take 3-5 day trips, and will be boondocking around 80% of the time. The trailer sits in storage when not in use.

I would like to setup the trailer so that we may be able to occasionally have our kids watch a movie, or use small appliances when we are without hookups. My goal is to build a setup around a 2K budget.

Here are my initial plans:

1.) Dual Trojan T 105 6V Batteries wired in series with a shutoff switch. Hopefully, they will fit without modification. ($325)

2.) A Renogy 2000 Watt Inverter with Control panel, with a built in Charger and ATS. ($600) Will be installed in the front compartment near the batteries.

3.) A Champion 3400 Watt ($749) or Harbor Freight 3500 Watt ($599) Inverter Generator.

4.) A Renogy or Victron solar charger, with a disconnect switch. ($199)

5.) I have already have two 185W 18v solar panels that I plan to use, (free) but I need mounts, a box and cabling ($150)

The trailer has 30 amp service. I am trying to decide if I should:

A.) Hard wire the Renogy Inverter by wiring the trailer AC input directly to the Inverter input and then wiring the Inverter output to the AC panel. (Removing the Built in Converter Charger) The Renogy has a built in ATS and Charger.

or

B.) Wire a new receptacle in the front of the trailer to manually Plug the trailer AC input cord to the inverter only when boondocked. (Turning off the converter to avoid charging loop) . With this I could go back to the standard setup without going through the inverter ATS when we have power available.

I am also trying to decide if I really need a Progressive Surge or Power Management System, or a Battery Monitor. The inverter has high /low voltage and frequency cutoff if we use the built in ATS.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions!!!

debit · 03-08-2018, 12:08 AM

One thought for boon-docking; open the light cover inside your frig and disconnect the red wire that goes to your door. The wire is used to heat your door, every time it is opened. This uses battery power. Keep the wire to the light connected and put the bulb back in.

We just use a Honda 2000 for power and we are off the grid for 4-5 days with no problem. Nothing else added, other than extra water.
.............
Ram 2500 diesel / FR Surveyor 251rks

**ependydad** · 03-08-2018, 12:23 AM

After back-feeding my camper like your B option, I can tell you it’s annoying to switch cords between inverter and generator all the time while boondocking.

I’m so lazy- I opted to each cold food vs switching to run the microwave for 90 seconds!

**Bama Rambler** · 03-08-2018, 02:15 PM

I think I would up the size of the inverter to handle the entire RV load and then hook it up like option (A).

Aaron1121 · 03-08-2018, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debit

One thought for boon-docking; open the light cover inside your frig and disconnect the red wire that goes to your door. The wire is used to heat your door, every time it is opened. This uses battery power. Keep the wire to the light connected and put the bulb back in.

We just use a Honda 2000 for power and we are off the grid for 4-5 days with no problem. Nothing else added, other than extra water.
.............
Ram 2500 diesel / FR Surveyor 251rks

Great suggestion! Thank you!

Aaron1121 · 03-08-2018, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bama Rambler

I think I would up the size of the inverter to handle the entire RV load and then hook it up like option (A).

I've been debating on the inverter size. The Inverter I am looking at is a 2000 watt inverter, and has a 30 Amp ATS built in. They also make a 3000 watt model, but it is a lot more expensive. I know that the bigger the inverter is, the larger the parasitic load.

I wish I had Magnun money for a really nice inverter, but I am trying to stay within my budget and get a Renogy or an AIMS or a lower cost model.

cavie · 03-08-2018, 02:46 PM

Will everyone get on the same page? some are saying inverter. some are saying generator. 2 different things.

boondocking · 03-08-2018, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bama Rambler

I think I would up the size of the inverter to handle the entire RV load and then hook it up like option (A).

I think the OP will be fine with a 2000 watt inverter, that will produce 16 amps. Not much else in the trailer that will use more than 16 amps besides the AC.

cavie · 03-08-2018, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boondocking

I think the OP will be fine with a 2000 watt inverter, that will produce 16 amps. Not much else in the trailer that will use more than 16 amps besides the AC.

Wifes blowdryer=1500 watts. coffee pot + toaster 1800 watts. Loads are additive.

boondocking · 03-08-2018, 03:15 PM

If a person is boon docking I don't think they are going to be using ac (multiple appliances at the same time) like they would at home.

TitanMike · 03-08-2018, 03:39 PM

On the Generator/Inverter, I'd go with the Champion Dual Fuel with Electric Start.

I have one and couldn't be happier. More than enough power to charge batteries with a PD 60 amp (1.000 watt inrush) converter. Nice feature(s) of the LPG option is that you don't have to change main jets when operating at high altitude and a 20# tank will run the gen/inverter for over twice as long as a tank of gasoline.

The Champion has larger wheels than the Predator which come in handy when pulling over crushed gravel, etc.

Battery wise, install as many as you can carry if you are planning on long boondocking sessions. Consider adding a battery State of Charge monitor like the Victron or Xantrex units.

With the dual 6 V battery setup mentioned in the opening post, the Victron 7xx units will allow monitoring of the Mid-Point Voltage. A connection is made at the junction point between the two batteries and it can provide warning that there is a problem in one battery or the other. Also will tell you the amount of current drawn from the batteries (adjusted for inefficiencies due to discharge rate) as well as charge replaced, again corrected for charge rate inefficiencies. My Victron 702 will also tell me the time remaining in days and hours based on both historical draw and current at the time I read.

Great tool to conserve fuel and time on your Gen/Inverter. When battery is fully charged it will tell you and if you want, it can be wired to shut off the generator when the charge level you set is reached.

A good 4 -stage Converter/Charger and a Battery Monitor that measures charge/discharge current can make life off the grid more pleasant.

Aaron1121 · 03-08-2018, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitanMike

On the Generator/Inverter, I'd go with the Champion Dual Fuel with Electric Start.

I have one and couldn't be happier. More than enough power to charge batteries with a PD 60 amp (1.000 watt inrush) converter. Nice feature(s) of the LPG option is that you don't have to change main jets when operating at high altitude and a 20# tank will run the gen/inverter for over twice as long as a tank of gasoline.

The Champion has larger wheels than the Predator which come in handy when pulling over crushed gravel, etc.

Battery wise, install as many as you can carry if you are planning on long boondocking sessions. Consider adding a battery State of Charge monitor like the Victron or Xantrex units.

With the dual 6 V battery setup mentioned in the opening post, the Victron 7xx units will allow monitoring of the Mid-Point Voltage. A connection is made at the junction point between the two batteries and it can provide warning that there is a problem in one battery or the other. Also will tell you the amount of current drawn from the batteries (adjusted for inefficiencies due to discharge rate) as well as charge replaced, again corrected for charge rate inefficiencies. My Victron 702 will also tell me the time remaining in days and hours based on both historical draw and current at the time I read.

Great tool to conserve fuel and time on your Gen/Inverter. When battery is fully charged it will tell you and if you want, it can be wired to shut off the generator when the charge level you set is reached.

A good 4 -stage Converter/Charger and a Battery Monitor that measures charge/discharge current can make life off the grid more pleasant.

Thanks for the info!!!! I will check out the champion dual fuel generator. I will also see if I can swing the additional funds to add a Victron battery monitor. Please keep the suggestions coming!

Abendage · 03-09-2018, 05:08 PM

I am in the process of doing a similar install. You can check out my thread here: http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...es-147628.html

I went with similar, yet a little less expensive components than you are planning.

I went with the following:

1. 4-GC2 6V Costco batteries - $332
2. Battery box to hold 4 GC2's ~$75
2. Go-Power 2,000 watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter - $249
3. Victron 150/35 MPPT Bluetooth Controller ~ $220
4. Victron BMV700 battery monitor - $150
5. 4 - Windy Nation 100watt flexible solar panels - $680
6. Manual transfer switch as described here: http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ion-18389.html ~$100 with box, switch, connectors
7. Misc Wiring, eternabond, etc - $250

With the manual transfer switch set up, you don't have to worry about switching off the converter, A/C, 120v side of the fridge, and the electric side of the water heater. The switch does it automatically, then if you plug into shore power its the same as stock.

With 440 amp hours and 400 watts of solar I won't even come close to needing a generator, and I don't have one. We don't camp where A/C would be necessary and the only major 120v load we have is the microwave for less than 10 minutes a day. My last camper I had a system 1/2 this size and didn't use the microwave and still never pulled the 2 6v's down past 65%. We just don't use that much power. Lights, TV, stereo, furnace, etc and that's about it.

The Victron monitor is worth it. If you go by the low power cutoff in the inverter, which is probably less than 11V, your batteries will be shot in no time.

TitanMike · 03-09-2018, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abendage

The Victron monitor is worth it. If you go by the low power cutoff in the inverter, which is probably less than 11V, your batteries will be shot in no time.

There is some benefit to the Low Voltage cutoff, even if it is around 11V. That's the voltage while under load. When shut off and some stabilization time is allowed, the voltage will probably read noticeably higher.

The Victron 7xx monitors are so flexible that it can do just about anything you want it to and are willing to take the time to make the settings. Alarms can be set for just about any parameter. High charging voltage, Low Voltage, High/Low temps, % SOC, Start or stop generator, turn Solar Charge on/off. Just depends on how clever one is with a couple of relays, some wire, and a soldering iron.

Skyliner · 03-10-2018, 01:46 AM

I have 880 amp hours of battery capacity with solar on the roof (right now 800 watts but may change after rear wall is torn out and rebuilt).

My inverter is an incredibly reliable 1500 watt Samlex PST 1500 model. It has ability to be wired directly with ROMEX. It has very low parasitic loss and remote on/off switch with monitor (volage, current, wattage, battery voltage etc..) allows me to turn it on and off when needed.

Since I'm boondocking, I never run all of my high current 120 volt appliances at once. 1500 watts is plenty enough for running my microwave, wife's hair dryer, and my 1500 watt electric heater but not together. Yes, the 1500 watt portable electric heater saved out butts once when our thermostat failed and we needed immediate heat so we wouldn't "freeze" on morning. Ran it for an hour while I removed the thermostat and replaced it with our trusty old backup mechanical one. This was on a 4 day long weekend camping trip where we didn't want to bother lugging our generators....all solar the whole time!

Parasitic loss is only one concern with an inverter. Inverters are MOST efficient the closer they are operated to their maximum load capacity. You will use more power running that TV on a 2000 watt inverter then you will on a smaller one.

Another thing is that cheap inverters will run their cooling fans on the entire time with as little as a 10 watt load. YOu want an inverter that has fans turn on with temperature of the cooling fins. Make sure you check this out before you buy. My first Samlex was the cheaper model that had this problem until i installed thermocouples in it to turn on fans only when temperature hit 140 deg F on the cooling fins.

My inverter is run into my power distribution panel via an auto transfer switch. I did not use a subpanel. I did not mess with the air conditioning wiring. Turning on the A/C by accident simply caused the inverter to shut off if I was on battery power. However, to reduce risk of accidental use of 120 volts power in the hot water heater and fridge with battery inverter power, I wired those directly with an inline replaceable fuse via the transfer switch. It was easier to do this than install a separate sub-panel for two items. You can also unplug your hot water heater or install a wall switch (use one that is lit red when it is turned on I guess) for both the fridge and heater as an easy option instead of messing with transfer switches. The transfer switch ensures that my converter is not powered by inverter electricity when on inverter power but ensures that a generator or campground power does go to the converter.

I did not use an all in one unit. I found that it was about $200 cheaper to buy a new PD converter and install it within 3 feet of the batteries and use a separate inverter. An extra run of Romex under the camper isn't that difficult. You can always run the romex in conduit along the frame but I did it the hard way and ran the two romex lines above the coroplast liner.

In your install, PLEASE install 200-300 amp fuses within 7 inches of the battery terminals. You will want to be protected if a crimped lug terminal fails and shorts against the frame....electrical fires are scary.

Each of my 4 battery banks are switch selectable. I normally run 3 banks all of the time and use the 4th bank as a backup in the event that the sun doesn't shine for 3 days.

Our energy audit shows we use use anywhere from to 80 to 100 amp hours per day. A lot of that is from our heater running almost continuously at night as summer nights can dip down into the 30's when camping at altitudes exceeding 10,000 feet. Microwave, 200 watt stereo, cell phone charger, exterior strip lighting, hair dryer, interior lighting at night, celing fan and DVD/TV player account for the rest of our usage. Microwave pulls 150 amps per hour at highest power level. We limit use to no more than 20 minutes/day at power level 10 (full power entire time), 40 minutes at power level 5, 60 minutes at defrost (about power level 2) etc..etc.. We use stove to boil water for coffee and tea and cook all of our food. Microwave is mainly for popcorn, reheating food that gets cold, or defrosting food quickly.

Trimetric is a good battery monitor and I like it though my next setup will probably use a victron one.

For generator, I recommend what I use: A 3400 watt (3100 watt continuous) Champion inverter generator with remote control start/shut off. I find little value in propane with a generator as it is bulky and a pain to refill. Propane is used solely for fridge, heat, and cooking when we camp. With solar, we use the generator very little and usage is typically for running the air conditioner when we camp at lower altitudes or other states. We often don't even bother bringing the Champion generator but do alway carry a small cheap 2 stroke harbor freight 800 watt generator as a backup to the solar in case the Yellowstone volcano erupts and sunlight is obfuscated.

Most inverters will drop off line at a certain voltage and having a voltage cut off feature is not necessary. A victron or trimetric battery monitor is useless if you don't check it regularly. I am so proud of my wife because the first thing she checks in the morning is our battery capacity to ensure it is above 50% so she can use her curling iron or hair dryer. She also checks it regularly during the day because she is so amazed by our ability to not have to run the generator as long as the sun is shining.

Aaron1121 · 03-27-2018, 11:23 PM

I just wanted to provide a quick update on my original thread.

We picked up the Surveyor 247BHDS last weekend. I did a few things differently than my original post.

I got rid of the small battery and installed 2 Costco Interstate 6V GC2 batteries and a shutoff switch. I also purchase a Champion 3400 Generator with remote start.

I am going to add a Progressive EMS-HW30C this weekend and a Victron 702 Battery Monitor. Before I do any major work, I am going to wait until we take a couple of trips and verify that every is working correctly without any warranty issues.

In a month or two I am going to move 2 of the receptacle AC circuits to an mini Eaton Sub Panel and add an a WFCO T-30 auto transfer switch and a Xantrex or AIMS 2000 Watt Inverter with an on off switch. Later, I will add a couple of solar panels and a charger controller.

I pre-built the entire system in my garage before installing anything in the trailer, and I gave up on the 2000 watt or 3000 watt combination inverter chargers with the built in ATS. I returned the AIMS and Renogy units that I tried. When I tested these units, the fans ran constantly or when the battery was charging, and they were REALLY loud. Even if the inverter function was turned off, it is not possible to disable the battery charging function. The battery charger kicks in and cycles for a minute or two a couple of times per hour. Also, the built in ATS was also not very reliable. Since I plan to mount the inverter in the front of the TT compartment directly under the bedroom, I want it to be quiet when it is turned off.

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who helped and provided ideas. I will post some pictures and the diagram I created when I am done with my project.

debit · 03-28-2018, 10:10 AM

Aaron1121,
Thank you for the interesting ideas. I know that I should install a shut-off switch at my two 6 volt batteries. I monitor, manually, the batteries via a gauge that I installed next to the light switches. So far, everything has been good. We will use the TT in three weeks.
..................
Ram 2500 diesel/FR Surveyor 251rks

goreviper · 03-28-2018, 12:35 PM

Arrow 1121
I am picking up my new 2601BHXL in a couple weeks and want something similar to what your set up sounds like.

Can you post photos? Would love to see.

goreviper · 03-28-2018, 12:37 PM

Sorry Aaron
Hate to miss spell a name.

bitNine · 04-01-2018, 12:01 PM

I replaced the TV in my trailer with a DC TV (external 19v power supply), which only cost me $160. It was a billion times easier than going the inverter route, and also a LOT cheaper. Just got back from our first camp of the season, and it was well worth the work. So glad I didn't go the inverter route. So much energy waste in converting DC power from a battery/solar back into AC power only for it to be converted back into DC power again by the TV. Power usage of the TV using AC and going the inverter route was about 30W. Power use of the TV using a 12v-19v upconverter is only 21W. That's a 30% reduction in power usage, meaning longer battery life. The only other work I did was to run a new 10AWG wire from the converter to the TV to reduce voltage drop. I figure that the inverter setup gets me 2 hours of TV time where my new setup gets me 3 hours. A 50% increase is significant. Total project cost: $220.

I only use a 100W solar panel, with 2 group 24 12v batteries. We run our generator a couple times per day for coffee related stuff, and the occasional microwave usage. Other than that, the generator never gets used. I was headed the hardcore inverter route before I realized what a complete waste of money it was for our situation. All the giant cables, rewiring, transfer switches, the cost of the inverter, the waste of power inversion, the space the inverter takes up, and more, changed everything. But then... All I need AC power for is the TV.

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