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Old 08-15-2014, 10:45 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Herk7769 View Post
Start with the article in Big Baron's post and then go to the ground/Neutral lugs from the converter.

One or the other should fix it.
I flew through the thread and typed out a plea before I read the article. I will go with the suggestions.
thank-you.
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:25 AM   #22
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Having worked with tower grounding and AM transmitters the bonding of connections are important in both RF (Radio Frequency) and AC power. Often a compound called Penetrox is used.
PENA134 - Burndy - Electrical Joint Compounds | Galco Industrial Electronics

This will eliminate corrosion between dissimilar metals and provide a electrical connection between cleaned surfaces. This is available at Lowes or Home Depot. We used a lot of alumium connectors for high power 600 vac 500 amp services for UHF transmitters and always used penetrox to eliminate heating and damage.

One bigger question is code surrounding Neutral bonded to Ground. According to Ontario and Canadian Electrical code a sub panel can not have the neutral and ground bonded. The park service panel distribution is where they are bonded. The National electrical code in the US may be different and the trailer have CSA for Canadian Certification. There is the code that says no and the reality the Trailer is safe and meets code as per the CSA certification.

The outlets in the trailer are protected by GFCI so the bonding from a safety aspect might be a non issue but hot skin or what Lou had could still happen as the return ground path is on the neutral instead of the ground. With high power usage in a park, all being single phase, it is quite possible a lot of neutral current exists creating a AC potential between the bonded trailer ground and real earth ground. When I spec an install I always have double sized neutrals added to compensate for single phase loads.

Sorry for going all engineer on you with this

Brian
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:26 AM   #23
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I just got one of these NON CONTACT VOLTAGE SENSORS (amazon) for 15 bucks to check the steps for hot skin after plugging in anywhere...but also useful for finding hot wires throughout the house and coach. I got this one because the adjustability makes it good for both 12 and 120V sensing and you can make it less sensitive to isolate THE wire with current in a bundle.
The ONLY thing I don't like about it is that you have to hold the on switch rather than there being a click on switch. Otherwise, highly recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instruments-VD6505-Adjustable-Sensor/dp/B000GLAC5G/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1408116681&sr=1-1
We also have a circuit tester like Herks above and give that a big DITTO too!
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Old 08-15-2014, 08:17 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by B and B View Post
Having worked with tower grounding and AM transmitters the bonding of connections are important in both RF (Radio Frequency) and AC power. Often a compound called Penetrox is used.
PENA134 - Burndy - Electrical Joint Compounds | Galco Industrial Electronics

This will eliminate corrosion between dissimilar metals and provide a electrical connection between cleaned surfaces. This is available at Lowes or Home Depot. We used a lot of alumium connectors for high power 600 vac 500 amp services for UHF transmitters and always used penetrox to eliminate heating and damage.

One bigger question is code surrounding Neutral bonded to Ground. According to Ontario and Canadian Electrical code a sub panel can not have the neutral and ground bonded. The park service panel distribution is where they are bonded. The National electrical code in the US may be different and the trailer have CSA for Canadian Certification. There is the code that says no and the reality the Trailer is safe and meets code as per the CSA certification.

The outlets in the trailer are protected by GFCI so the bonding from a safety aspect might be a non issue but hot skin or what Lou had could still happen as the return ground path is on the neutral instead of the ground. With high power usage in a park, all being single phase, it is quite possible a lot of neutral current exists creating a AC potential between the bonded trailer ground and real earth ground. When I spec an install I always have double sized neutrals added to compensate for single phase loads.

Sorry for going all engineer on you with this

Brian
I think this is the same in the US. Neutral and ground are not to be bonded except at the service. I could be mistaken, as its been a while since studying the NEC. I know that in my TT they are separate.
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Old 08-15-2014, 09:12 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RPAspey View Post
I think this is the same in the US. Neutral and ground are not to be bonded except at the service. I could be mistaken, as its been a while since studying the NEC. I know that in my TT they are separate.
The words electrical bonding refers to the process of joining two metals together providing the least electrical resistance between the metals (this includes crimp on wire terminal lugs used to ground wires to wherever). Electrical ground (neutral returns included) circuits differing in function/type and amount of voltage/signal etc. should not be combined to a common ground point (stud) rather to its own dedicated ground point. Likewise identical function wiring may be combined on a common stud (point). Everyone probably knows this though so I'm done.
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Old 08-16-2014, 09:26 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
I just got one of these NON CONTACT VOLTAGE SENSORS (amazon) for 15 bucks to check the steps for hot skin after plugging in anywhere...but also useful for finding hot wires throughout the house and coach. I got this one because the adjustability makes it good for both 12 and 120V sensing and you can make it less sensitive to isolate THE wire with current in a bundle.
The ONLY thing I don't like about it is that you have to hold the on switch rather than there being a click on switch. Otherwise, highly recommended.
http://www.amazon.com/Sperry-Instruments-VD6505-Adjustable-Sensor/dp/B000GLAC5G/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1408116681&sr=1-1
We also have a circuit tester like Herks above and give that a big DITTO too!
Never tried this brand but know their limitations & always test them on a known source before using as the battery inside will eventually die. The ones I have used only check AC though not 12V.

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Old 08-17-2014, 10:10 AM   #27
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It was directly under the converter at the frame.

The green wire went directly from the converter's ground buss to the frame (via a hole in the floor) and the Neutral from the converter's buss went to another Neutral buss screwed to the floor; and then to the frame via the same hole as the green ground wire.

Herk,
Are you sure the buss screwed to the floor is not the common buss for the DC side? The neutral and the equipment ground should NOT be bonded together in the trailer. The only place the neutral and ground should be bonded is at the main service disconnect in the home or campground electrical system. If they are tied together in the trailer, that creates a parallel path for neutral current through the ground conductor which is not good.

Brad
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Old 08-17-2014, 01:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by WY Husker Fan View Post
Herk,
Are you sure the buss screwed to the floor is not the common buss for the DC side? The neutral and the equipment ground should NOT be bonded together in the trailer. The only place the neutral and ground should be bonded is at the main service disconnect in the home or campground electrical system. If they are tied together in the trailer, that creates a parallel path for neutral current through the ground conductor which is not good.

Brad
Gonna look again today, but that is what I recall finding.
Lou
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Old 08-17-2014, 01:39 PM   #29
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WOW I would have never thought about the battery. GREAT POINT Herk.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:52 PM   #30
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So, just when I thought I had it all figured out ... Monkey Wrench.

The buss screwed to the floor is indeed the 12 volt DC "Ground Buss."

Unbonded the AC Ground and AC Neutral in the camper and my 30 volts AC is back; frame ground to Neutral.

Further troubleshooting is I have about 2 volts AC between the AC ground and AC Neutral with all breakers on except the L/R GFCI circuit/Converter (hots are soldered together and inserted at the breaker).

In process of trying to isolate which leg is the culprit. I am afraid the issue is in the converter. (Film at Eleven)
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