Which genius wired this? and how do i fix it??

[Fosters]

i have a 2017 palomino puma unleashed 373qsi. it has, like most trailers nowadays, an awning light and well, interior lights.

I've had the awning light pop the fuse and after finally finding it and replacing it a couple of times, it kept doing it. It has a 5 amp fuse behind the control panel in the kitchen cabinet. i ran out of 5amp fuses and used a 7.5amp, i know, not ideal but needed the light.

when i flicked it on, it tripped the interior lights fuse - another 7.5amp fuse, this time in the fuse panel... how the hell did they wire 2 different things on 2 different switches with 2 different fuses on the same wire? turning off the interior lights and only the awning one does seem to work.

And how do i fix this? i've checked the wires where they connect behind the awning arm, nothing is touching/shorting out, which i guess is to be expected since the awning works without inside lights on. Any way to separate the two? so that they are on separate circuits as they should? any way to do it without ripping walls apart? anyone else run into this?

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Fosters

i have a 2017 palomino puma unleashed 373qsi. it has, like most trailers nowadays, an awning light and well, interior lights.

I've had the awning light pop the fuse and after finally finding it and replacing it a couple of times, it kept doing it. It has a 5 amp fuse behind the control panel in the kitchen cabinet. i ran out of 5amp fuses and used a 7.5amp, i know, not ideal but needed the light.

when i flicked it on, it tripped the interior lights fuse - another 7.5amp fuse, this time in the fuse panel... how the hell did they wire 2 different things on 2 different switches with 2 different fuses on the same wire? turning off the interior lights and only the awning one does seem to work.

And how do i fix this? i've checked the wires where they connect behind the awning arm, nothing is touching/shorting out, which i guess is to be expected since the awning works without inside lights on. Any way to separate the two? so that they are on separate circuits as they should? any way to do it without ripping walls apart? anyone else run into this?

Many circuits have more than 1 piece of equipment on them. Separate circuits aren't required if you can't use 2 or more items at the same time. You house is wired the same way.

[babock]

Something doesn't sound right. Pull both fuses and just put in one. What doesn't work when you do that? Move that fuse to the other slot. What works then?

[wahoonc]

Sounds like they may have combined some wires in the wrong order. Turning all the lights on then pulling one fuse at a time is a good idea if the fuses don't blow. If you are blowing fuses you either have a grounding issue or an overvoltage issue. I bet on something grounding out that isn't supposed to. There are multiple places a 12-volt system can ground out, that fact it started after a while says something changed. Perhaps a wire has rubbed against something and shorted, a connector is loose or? Hard to track down. Another way to check is to run a fused direct line to the lights, then the switch and keep working your way down the line.

I had one unit that when you pulled all the fuses and reinstalled them one by one, sometimes a supposedly dead circuit would get a partial feed on it causing the lights to come on very dim. Never found where that bad connection was, sold the trailer first.

Aaron

[B and B]

Sounds like the reports of some media outlets about issues at FR plants might be true. I would do as others have said trace it out and put on a separate circuit. It is entirely possible the wrong size fuse was used in the first place due to piece work wages and poor knowledge of what or how to do it.

[mwdilday]

The light probably requires 5 amp protection - that could be why the 5 amp fuse is in the line downstream. The 7.5 amp in the main panel is there to protect the wire. It sounds like there is a problem with the light or the wire to the light. Upping fuse ratings is a really bad idea. Your problem is between the 5 amp fuse and the light.

[PenJoe]

Let's try a process of elimination. First, are the interior/exterior lights incandescent or LED? Second, was this initially a problem or something that started over time? Third, do the interior lights work when the exterior light is off?

By what you are explaining, the exterior light is drawing more than 5 amps, but less than 7.5 amps. That would be why the exterior light blows a 5 amp fuse, but works on its own with 7.5 amps., When the interior lights are turned on it overloads the circuit (more than 7.5 amps). If the exterior light is an LED, it may be faulty. Even though the panel fuse went first, it may have been a bit weaker.

What needs to be determined is if it is an overloaded circuit or a short. If you can provide a bit more info, we may be of more help.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by mwdilday

The light probably requires 5 amp protection - that could be why the 5 amp fuse is in the line downstream. The 7.5 amp in the main panel is there to protect the wire. It sounds like there is a problem with the light or the wire to the light. Upping fuse ratings is a really bad idea. Your problem is between the 5 amp fuse and the light.

Yes! It makes perfect sense to put a low-amperage fuse on the awning light since the wires flex and are likely to be chafed/pinched when the awning is deployed. If that fuse blows, nothing else is disabled and your trip isn't spoiled. It seems like a smart thing to do.

BTW, could all the lights and fans and other 12v appliances and tell us how many fuses it would take to wire them all independently. And how much wire if everything had to be home-run instead of daisy-chained.

Did you know that your sticks-and-bricks home has 5 to 7 outlets for every breaker?

Larry

[Broncorick]

Do you have a hand control for the awning and the awning light? If so they had some that would make the light stay on, or could short out. The control boards were a problem.

Just food for thought.

Good luck with it.

Broncorick

[Fosters]

Originally Posted by cavie

Many circuits have more than 1 piece of equipment on them. Separate circuits aren't required if you can't use 2 or more items at the same time. You house is wired the same way.

My house doesn't have 2 fuses for 2 different things on the same circuit. This does - that's the confusing part. I'd understand it if there were multiple switches for multiple lights on the same circuit. but 2 fuses of different values as well?

Originally Posted by PenJoe

Let's try a process of elimination. First, are the interior/exterior lights incandescent or LED? Second, was this initially a problem or something that started over time? Third, do the interior lights work when the exterior light is off?

By what you are explaining, the exterior light is drawing more than 5 amps, but less than 7.5 amps. That would be why the exterior light blows a 5 amp fuse, but works on its own with 7.5 amps., When the interior lights are turned on it overloads the circuit (more than 7.5 amps). If the exterior light is an LED, it may be faulty. Even though the panel fuse went first, it may have been a bit weaker.

What needs to be determined is if it is an overloaded circuit or a short. If you can provide a bit more info, we may be of more help.

All of the lights are LED - inside/out. The awning light is a strip, the inside ones are the standard round led puck lights.

I honestly don't know if this started over time, I had not used the awning light that much; maybe turned it on 2-3x in the past, and no idea if the interior lights were on at the same time. So to say it started a year and a half into owning this thing is a bit misleading.

I believe the exterior light will work on 5 amps - but not with the interior ones turned on. As soon as you turn both on, the 5 amp fuse will blow if I have a 7.5 in the second spot (and I agree, the 7.5 amp fuse by the interior lights likely blew because one of them had to when I put a 7.5 in each place)

mwdilday - I know going up in fuse sizes is a bad idea, hence 7.5 is max I was willing to go... but it also did show me the "feature" built in... I have a bit of experience with car audio and i quickly looked up the amp/awg/distance charts, and even 16 gauge (which these wires appear to be) would carry 12 amps at 15ft roughly... so I think 7.5 is safe. Would definitely not go higher.

I have visually inspected the wires and couldn't find any frays or anything looking abnormal - and the other reason I don't think anything is worn out or grounded - is that the light works fine by itself, it's only when turning both on that they overload.

I cannot for the life of me visualize how they'd wire the whole thing - going from the source (lets say battery) to 2 fuses and 2 switches to 2 different things... on the same circuit?

I think my only option is to hook up a multi meter in line to each of the lights (maybe at the fuses) and see how much each individually is drawing? Does that sound like a plan or a recipe for a 40ft long bon fire?

[Fosters]

Originally Posted by Broncorick

Do you have a hand control for the awning and the awning light? If so they had some that would make the light stay on, or could short out. The control boards were a problem.

Just food for thought.

Good luck with it.

Broncorick

The awning is power - I did read that on some of them the motor and the light are on the same circuit, but on this one it looks like they aren't. The fuse for the awning light is oddly the only fuse I've found (so far) that's not in the fuse panel, but as an afterthought added in line with the switch behind the control panel.

[Fosters]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Yes! It makes perfect sense to put a low-amperage fuse on the awning light since the wires flex and are likely to be chafed/pinched when the awning is deployed. If that fuse blows, nothing else is disabled and your trip isn't spoiled. It seems like a smart thing to do.

BTW, could all the lights and fans and other 12v appliances and tell us how many fuses it would take to wire them all independently. And how much wire if everything had to be home-run instead of daisy-chained.

Did you know that your sticks-and-bricks home has 5 to 7 outlets for every breaker?

Larry

Not everything needs its own breaker/fuse, I understand that part... it has 3 7.5 amp fuses labeled front middle back - those are all lights. Front has 2 puck lights and the ornamental blue light strip on the front cap; rear has 2 puck lights and middle has 6 puck lights - and apparently the awning light strip. There's also a 15 amp fuse labeled "light" but despite pulling it out, every light still works.

Anyone have any idea what the awning light strip is supposed to draw current wise?

The stereo is another issue in this thing - the sound bar that controls all of the speakers draws about 1.2-1.3 amps when turned off... used to kill batteries constantly. its fuse has been permanently pulled and now my draw with everything off is like 0.1-0.15, which is more normal... That's a topic for another thread, but that was my first clue that the wiring in this thing was done by stevie wonder....

[babock]

One of the first things I did was put in a switch in front of the radio. No need for it to be powered all the timed drawing all that standby current.

[PenJoe]

Originally Posted by Fosters

My house doesn't have 2 fuses for 2 different things on the same circuit. This does - that's the confusing part. I'd understand it if there were multiple switches for multiple lights on the same circuit. but 2 fuses of different values as well?



All of the lights are LED - inside/out. The awning light is a strip, the inside ones are the standard round led puck lights.

I honestly don't know if this started over time, I had not used the awning light that much; maybe turned it on 2-3x in the past, and no idea if the interior lights were on at the same time. So to say it started a year and a half into owning this thing is a bit misleading.

I believe the exterior light will work on 5 amps - but not with the interior ones turned on. As soon as you turn both on, the 5 amp fuse will blow if I have a 7.5 in the second spot (and I agree, the 7.5 amp fuse by the interior lights likely blew because one of them had to when I put a 7.5 in each place)

mwdilday - I know going up in fuse sizes is a bad idea, hence 7.5 is max I was willing to go... but it also did show me the "feature" built in... I have a bit of experience with car audio and i quickly looked up the amp/awg/distance charts, and even 16 gauge (which these wires appear to be) would carry 12 amps at 15ft roughly... so I think 7.5 is safe. Would definitely not go higher.

I have visually inspected the wires and couldn't find any frays or anything looking abnormal - and the other reason I don't think anything is worn out or grounded - is that the light works fine by itself, it's only when turning both on that they overload.

I cannot for the life of me visualize how they'd wire the whole thing - going from the source (lets say battery) to 2 fuses and 2 switches to 2 different things... on the same circuit?

I think my only option is to hook up a multi meter in line to each of the lights (maybe at the fuses) and see how much each individually is drawing? Does that sound like a plan or a recipe for a 40ft long bon fire?

[QUOTE=Fosters;2056669]My house doesn't have 2 fuses for 2 different things on the same circuit. This does - that's the confusing part. I'd understand it if there were multiple switches for multiple lights on the same circuit. but 2 fuses of different values as well?


Actually you do. All of your circuits originate via breakers (fuse) on the main panel. Kitchen, bathrooms, basement, garages, exterior outlets and wet areas have GFI circuits and will trip before the one in the service panel. GFIs are basically fuses TVs, computers, microwaves, and expensive electronics have integral fuses.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by Fosters

I cannot for the life of me visualize how they'd wire the whole thing - going from the source (lets say battery) to 2 fuses and 2 switches to 2 different things... on the same circuit?

Let's look at this another way.

Suppose we have some lights--they don't draw much current--so we decide they can be all be aggregated on a single circuit. And we decide that we can fuse them individually, so that if one fails shorted or high current/low resistance it doesn't leave everything in the dark. One of the lights is outdoors and part of a mechanical apparatus, so multiple modes of failure are possible.

But if we do that, then the line from the battery out to the individual fuses is unfused. If that line is pinched or shorted, the trailer really could catch fire. So let's connect it to one of the fuses in the distribution panel, with a higher capacity fuse, since its only purpose is to protect the wire, not the lights at the end.

That thought process leads to the wiring you describe. The only question in my mind is what changed to cause the awning lights to suddenly exceed 5 amps and blow the fuse. Is there leakage current due to moisture? A high resistance connection to ground?

If your theory, that the current draw has always been this way, you are probably safe to change the awning fuse to 7.5 amps and the panel fuse to 10 amps, restoring the hierarchy and again allowing 2.5 amps for the interior light. If after time, the awning light starts drawing more current and blows fuses again, you will have to break down and fix it--and restore both fuses to their original values.

By the way, did you know that it's very easy to measure current draws on these elements? Simply remove the fuse, set your multimeter on the 10 Amp DC scale and plug it in, in place of the fuse.

I have to admit to a somewhat-related adventure. As we get older, we need things brighter to see well. (There's a scientific explanation for this.) Outfitting the trailer with 1141 lamps, or replacing them with "corncob" LEDs wasn't doing it for us. So I went for these really bright honkers. I put one in each fixture in most cases. In a couple of spots where I wanted it brighter, I put in two. (I mounted them by putting three layers of double-sided foam tape on strips on the back side, to conform to the concave dome shape of the fixture.) I used the bayonet adapters that came with each unit.

Almost everything worked fine. In one situation, when I had all the double-fixtures set to turn both sides on, the fuse blew. Not instantly--it wasn't a dead short, but after a few minutes. I figured I had overloaded the circuit and simply set a few of the double fixtures to one side only. Several months later, I wanted a little more light in just one spot and turned only one of the fixtures back on. A few minutes later I smelled something scorching. I located to the fixture. When I took off the lens, I found that the hot wire to the LED had been cut by the sharp edge of the adapter's bayonet shell. (See the link.) There was no damage to the LED or fixture. I just had to replace the adapter. The lesson was that you can have a low-resistance path that's not a dead 0-ohm short.

Larry

[bubbles]

I didn't read everything but can you move the awning power wire from the load side of the light fuse and connect to the line side of the light fuse putting them in parallel? That's the way it probably should have been done with one line feed wire (correct gauge for combined loads) but each on its own fused circuit.

[Ale_Brewer]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Let's look at this another way.

Suppose we have some lights--they don't draw much current--so we decide they can be all be aggregated on a single circuit. And we decide that we can fuse them individually, so that if one fails shorted or high current/low resistance it doesn't leave everything in the dark. One of the lights is outdoors and part of a mechanical apparatus, so multiple modes of failure are possible.

But if we do that, then the line from the battery out to the individual fuses is unfused. If that line is pinched or shorted, the trailer really could catch fire. So let's connect it to one of the fuses in the distribution panel, with a higher capacity fuse, since its only purpose is to protect the wire, not the lights at the end.

That thought process leads to the wiring you describe. The only question in my mind is what changed to cause the awning lights to suddenly exceed 5 amps and blow the fuse. Is there leakage current due to moisture? A high resistance connection to ground?
Larry

This is exactly what is happening here. Your awning LED strip and your interior lights are all on one circuit that is protected by a 7.5 amp fuse in the breaker panel. The LED strip is very prone to failure since the wires are tweaked and twisted every time you open and close your awning, so they added a 5 amp fuse in-line to the wire that supplies power only to the awning light (off the 7.5 amp circuit) so that when the LED strip effs up, the wire between the awning light switch and the main panel is protected. Long story long, there is a problem with your LED strip on the awning.