wire diagram ?

[yelhelp]

My salem toy hauler has been sitting in a lot next to our house for a month. I have it plugged in to the electric because I'm working on some little things to get it ready for a trip in Sept . I walk in yesterday and No lights , no radio, no power . I check the breakers and a double throw is tripped. I know that they sometimes get weak , so off I go to get a new one. Come back , install the new breaker , wha-la that trips as well. SO Now it seems that I have a short SOMEPLACE in the unit. Anyone agree or disagree? This circuit seems to be all the lights ,radio, maybe receptacles (got to check that) But two other breakers not tripping off. It would be great if there was a wire diagram of this. I wonder do these have fusible linkes? that may have gone ? I have 10 days to figure this out or this trip is toast and the trip to Texas in Jan is on the line.

[Witch Doctor]

I'm confused too with your problem. All lights, radio are 12V, so that could be a ground. The breakers only should take care of your 110v. I know of no links. I would check your convertor with a meter. If you are tripping a breaker like that you would need a dead short. Also check your ground fault plugs. Are you sure it is not the power cord coming in? You need to work backwards from the source. Even if you shut off your main breaker the 12V side should still work. Is your unit 50 amp or 30 amp? As far as a wiring diagram I called the factory, they said they do not have one at least for my unit. They told me it would depend on who wired it, which I find hard to believe.

[yelhelp]

Originally Posted by gljurczyk

I'm confused too with your problem. All lights, radio are 12V, so that could be a ground. The breakers only should take care of your 110v. I know of no links. I would check your convertor with a meter. If you are tripping a breaker like that you would need a dead short. Also check your ground fault plugs. Are you sure it is not the power cord coming in? You need to work backwards from the source. Even if you shut off your main breaker the 12V side should still work. Is your unit 50 amp or 30 amp? As far as a wiring diagram I called the factory, they said they do not have one at least for my unit. They told me it would depend on who wired it, which I find hard to believe.

I did notice that the main line that you plug in for the power has a separation at the wire / plug and I think this happened after a real heavy down pour rain storm. Rain could have gotten under the outer covering.
Thanks I will start there I wish they sent a wire diagram with these things,
.To be clear on our 30amp " breakers are for the 120, My lights and radio work on 12volt"/? I now have a starting place thank you for your reply.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by yelhelp

I did notice that the main line that you plug in for the power has a separation at the wire / plug and I think this happened after a real heavy down pour rain storm. Rain could have gotten under the outer covering.
Thanks I will start there I wish they sent a wire diagram with these things,
.To be clear on our 30amp " breakers are for the 120, My lights and radio work on 12volt"/? I now have a starting place thank you for your reply.

That is correct, your 110v go's to your convertor and breaker panel. You should have all mini type fuse's for the 12V not breakers.It is really two different systems in that panel.Make sure also that you do not have a dead short in the battery. PM me if you run into a problem. by the way were did your double breaker trip at? in your trailer panel or home panel? You should not have a double pull breaker in your 30 amp trailer. If it was your house panel it would be 220v and then you fired everything in that converter..

[yelhelp]

The breaker in the RV not at the home Panel. there are two 20 amp top and bottom and one 15 amp in the middle of them It is the 15 amp that is triping. in the panel for the RV.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by yelhelp

The breaker in the RV not at the home Panel. there are two 20 amp top and bottom and one 15 amp in the middle of them It is the 15 amp that is triping. in the panel for the RV.

Okay check your GFI receptacles. You might have 1 in the bath, 1 near the galley, and maybe one outside. the 15amp would go to one of your appliances or the GFI. try that. Also if you can check that extension you got running to the trailer if you got water in it you will trip. Also unplug each 110v app. then plug them back in 1 at a time and see which one is tripping the 15 amp breaker. You lights should still work off the battery. If not check for a dead short in the battery. Sorry about all these steps, but that's the way I would start. Hope this helps

[Witch Doctor]

You should also have a 30 amp breaker in that trailer panel, should be on top first, that is your main breaker, if that is not tripped it is on what ever that 15 amp feeds.

[Mister]

Agreed, I'm a little confused too but it seems to me you have two problems not just one.

As the previous poster said, find out what is all plugged in and hard wired to the 15A breaker that's tripping. Disconnect them and reconnect them one at a time. Of course all disconnecting and reconnecting should be done with the breakers off. Each time you add an appliance or load, turn the power back on for a few minutes to see if it trips. Once it does, you should have it narrowed down.

As for the DC side. Just to be clear... ALL of the lights in the unit, radio, TV amp, furnace, LP detector, roof vent fans, fridge (running on gas)... None of them work? If this is the case, check inside your converter/breaker box. Look for a collection of high amperage fuses (usually 2 - 4) rated some where between 20-40 each that should be right next to each other. This would be the main fuse cluster from your battery. Sometimes reversing polarity on a battery can blow these. Check you battery polarity. If none of this is wrong look at your battery cables and make sure there are no cuts or bare spots from the battery all the way back to the converter (I hope you don't have an enclosed underbelly.

It's a start anyway... Best of luck!

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by yelhelp

The breaker in the RV not at the home Panel. there are two 20 amp top and bottom and one 15 amp in the middle of them It is the 15 amp that is triping. in the panel for the RV.

I have a few questions yelhelp.

1. Exactly what are you plugged into at your house in order to receive 120 volt electricity? Are you plugged into an actual 30 amp outlet (that would had to be special wired) or are you plugged into a 15/20 amp outlet (common household circuit) via an adapter....or even something else?

EDIT: Are you also running extension cords to the lot next door, and if so, how long are they.

2. Have you accidently left your water heaters electric heating element turned on, with no water in the heater? A burned out element will sometimes play havoc on the circuit breaker for it. Here is a FAQ on the Suburban water heaters possibly location of it's electric switch that commonly get's left on and the heating element burns out.

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ore-36197.html

[Mister]

Originally Posted by wmtire

I have a few questions yelhelp.

1. Exactly what are you plugged into at your house in order to receive 120 volt electricity? Are you plugged into an actual 30 amp outlet (that would had to be special wired) or are you plugged into a 15/20 amp outlet (common household circuit) via an adapter?

2. Have you accidently left your water heaters electric heating element turned on, with no water in the heater? A burned out element will sometimes play havoc on the circuit breaker for it. Here is a FAQ on the Suburban water heaters possibly location of it's electric switch that commonly get's left on and the heating element burns out.

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ore-36197.html

Good point on the water heater.

[yelhelp]

Originally Posted by Mister

Agreed, I'm a little confused too but it seems to me you have two problems not just one.

As the previous poster said, find out what is all plugged in and hard wired to the 15A breaker that's tripping. Disconnect them and reconnect them one at a time. Of course all disconnecting and reconnecting should be done with the breakers off. Each time you add an appliance or load, turn the power back on for a few minutes to see if it trips. Once it does, you should have it narrowed down.

As for the DC side. Just to be clear... ALL of the lights in the unit, radio, TV amp, furnace, LP detector, roof vent fans, fridge (running on gas)... None of them work? If this is the case, check inside your converter/breaker box. Look for a collection of high amperage fuses (usually 2 - 4) rated some where between 20-40 each that should be right next to each other. This would be the main fuse cluster from your battery. Sometimes reversing polarity on a battery can blow these. Check you battery polarity. If none of this is wrong look at your battery cables and make sure there are no cuts or bare spots from the battery all the way back to the converter (I hope you don't have an enclosed underbelly.

It's a start anyway... Best of luck!

well it seems that I'm dealing with the DC part I was able to check all the receptacles as they are on the 120 and that is fine. I traced out the wire from the circuit breaker that is tripping and it feeds the transformer that provides the dc 12 volt. I then thought maybe there is something with the dual battery set up . This is real confusing for me , I would think that on a duel system battery's running in succession would have to both be equal. Not so here. I have a 6 volt @6.55 v and a 12 volt running 12.11V ? (RV Is new to me bought it from a private seller) I thought if you run two battery they must be equal? Could this be as simple as having the wrong batteries? If so maybe one of the batteries have warped plates causing a short?

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by yelhelp

well it seems that I'm dealing with the DC part I was able to check all the receptacles as they are on the 120 and that is fine. I traced out the wire from the circuit breaker that is tripping and it feeds the transformer that provides the dc 12 volt. I then thought maybe there is something with the dual battery set up . This is real confusing for me , I would think that on a duel system battery's running in succession would have to both be equal. Not so here. I have a 6 volt @6.55 v and a 12 volt running 12.11V ? (RV Is new to me bought it from a private seller) I thought if you run two battery they must be equal? Could this be as simple as having the wrong batteries? If so maybe one of the batteries have warped plates causing a short?

You can not hook 6V to 12V take the 6 volt out of the circuit. get another 12v and wire them PLUS to PLUS and NEG to NEG. Get the same amp hrs. I think you found your problem or just stay with 1 battery, unless you dry camp alot.........

[BarryD0706]

I don't think anything downstream of the converter (you called it a transformer) is going to cause it to trip it's breaker. You could always disconnect the batteries to make sure.

It sounds to me like it's time for a new converter. You should look into the Progressive Dynamics brand. Note that you don't normally have to replace the whole box...just the converter piece.

Assuming you have a WFCO converter now, you can find a troubleshooting document for it in our Library.

Please make sure you measured the battery voltage directly on the posts of each battery. I think it's very unlikely that someone installed both 12v & 6v batteries. Look at the labels. Maybe the 6v one is a badly discharged 12.

[BarryD0706]

Originally Posted by gljurczyk

You can not hook 6V to 12V take the 6 volt out of the circuit. get another 12v and wire them PLUS to PLUS and NEG to NEG. Get the same amp hrs. I think you found your problem or just stay with 1 battery, unless you dry camp alot.........

From what I've seen, most people recommend two 6v in series if you're going to have two batteries. Also multiple batteries have to be matched up so replacing one is usually not an option.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by BarryD0706

From what I've seen, most people recommend two 6v in series if you're going to have two batteries. Also multiple batteries have to be matched up so replacing one is usually not an option.

If you read my post Barry you would seen that I said that. You need to match the amp hrs. Ideally it would be great to buy new batteries. I do not know how old his 12v is do you? As far as what most people do it depends on your useage. I have a 2-12V battery pack which works perfect for me. It also depends on the space you have. It would take 4 - 6v to get the amp hrs. Besides the cost factor involved. I use to have 6 D-10's in my boat but I had the space and needed the power being a sail boat. There is always options. Lets hope the guy didn't fry his convertor.......He making progress......

[BarryD0706]

Originally Posted by gljurczyk

If you read my post Barry you would seen that I said that. You need to match the amp hrs. Ideally it would be great to buy new batteries. I do not know how old his 12v is do you? As far as what most people do it depends on your useage. I have a 2-12V battery pack which works perfect for me. It also depends on the space you have. It would take 4 - 6v to get the amp hrs. Besides the cost factor involved. I use to have 6 D-10's in my boat but I had the space and needed the power being a sail boat. There is always options. Lets hope the guy didn't fry his convertor.......He making progress......

It's not enough to "match the amp hrs". The older battery will have different characteristics than a new one (due to its usage/history). Putting the two in parallel will cause the older battery to draw down the newer battery to its level.

I agree with your earlier suggestion that it's probably best to just go back to one 12v battery.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by BarryD0706

It's not enough to "match the amp hrs". The older battery will have different characteristics than a new one (due to its usage/history). Putting the two in parallel will cause the older battery to draw down the newer battery to its level.

I agree with your earlier suggestion that it's probably best to just go back to one 12v battery.

I agree with that except his 12V was measured at 12.11V that alone tells me it is not that old. Full charge is 12.8V on most batteries. he might even be a little over charged even.......You are right about the progressive compared to WFCO. I hope he get's it figured out.......

[BarryD0706]

Originally Posted by gljurczyk

I agree with that except his 12V was measured at 12.11V that alone tells me it is not that old. Full charge is 12.8V on most batteries. he might even be a little over charged even.......You are right about the progressive compared to WFCO. I hope he get's it figured out.......

I'm very sorry but that voltage doesn't tell you how old the battery is at all. What that tells you is that the battery has about 55% of its charge remaining. Since we don't know when it was last charged, we really don't know anything about it at all.

[1A Camper]

The water in the cable would be tripping the house breaker not the one in the trailer.

Now for the battery. I am thinking you have two 6 volt battery, so if you measure from ground one will read 6 and the other will read 12. If that is true then 12.1 is a low battery but it is enough to run the lights.

Now I am thinking that you have two 12 volt battery and can select one or the other battery and the 12 volt battery that is reading 6 volt is selected and not being charged. Sel the other battery and your light should work until your battery run out of power. If this battery does run the light that is saying that 12 volt circuit is OK. Turn the breaker back on and if it does not trip, measure the voltage on the 12.1 battery is it now higher then the 12.1 reading earlier? if it is the 12v battery that reads 6 may be bad ( shorted cell)

If the breaker trips again that would mean that the problem is after the breaker and before the battery. That leave the converter / battery charger has gone bad or something else that that breaker supply power to. The reason the light and other 12v are not working is the battery is not being charged because the breaker is tripped and not charging the battery.

[Mister]

Originally Posted by yelhelp

well it seems that I'm dealing with the DC part I was able to check all the receptacles as they are on the 120 and that is fine. I traced out the wire from the circuit breaker that is tripping and it feeds the transformer that provides the dc 12 volt. I then thought maybe there is something with the dual battery set up . This is real confusing for me , I would think that on a duel system battery's running in succession would have to both be equal. Not so here. I have a 6 volt @6.55 v and a 12 volt running 12.11V ? (RV Is new to me bought it from a private seller) I thought if you run two battery they must be equal? Could this be as simple as having the wrong batteries? If so maybe one of the batteries have warped plates causing a short?

This thread has drifted a little. Bottom line get that 6V battery out of that circuit!!! If wired in parallel with a 12V, the 12V battery is going to try and charge the 6V with (in a worst case) explosive results! In series the system is outputting over 18V which could toast all kinds of equipment in your rig (including you DC converter, what you referred to as your "transformer".)

Note if your system is parallel the lights should work from the one 12V battery and you should tape off the spare POS cable with electrical tape to keep it from grounding out on the frame of the trailer and sparking. If yours was a series system, removing the 6V battery may cause no power on the DC side of your system. Before doing anything else PM me or post again here. We need to discuss things further to make sure we're all on the same page.

Try your converter with just the 12V battery hooked up. See if it still trips the breaker. If it doesn't trip connect your multimeter to the POS and NEG terminals and see if the battery is charging. (A 12V battery will start charging in the 12-13V range and slowly climb, topping out at about 14.3-14.4V. After that the converter should back it down to about 13.2V (takes several hours to a day.)

You are correct. Dual battery systems need to have batteries of the same voltage and Amp Hour ratings. Wired in parallel, two 12V batteries can provide twice as much power as one (in theory) however, one battery will always be drawing from the other in order to stabilize voltages between them. Miss matched pairs in terms of size or performance will escalate this problem. Wired in series two 6V batteries are used to do the same thing. This system is preferred by most users as (when the battery sizes are equal) the two 3 chamber batteries act as one 6 chamber battery. There is roughly 2V of output per chamber. There is no "fighting" or equalizing as the batteries distribute voltage across them, not load.