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05-25-2017, 01:49 AM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 4
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Xantrex Inverter Freedom 458, 2000 watts.
I purchased a 5000 watt inverter from the net for $600.00. Once connected to the 6 batteries I had installed on the front of my trailer - I turned on the A.C unit in my WildCat Maxx Forest River 2015 Trailer. The inverted breaker - popped. I tried it again - and again the inverter breaker popped. I realized this pure sine inverter wasn't as advertised on the net.
I contaced Royal Coach in Bakersfield California. The service manager (Frank) recommended an Xantrex freedom 458 2000 watt inverter. I asked how could it at 2000 watts could power up the A.C Unit when the 5000 watt inverter I had purchased wouldn't. Frank advised that the surge of 50 amp service on the Xantrex Freedom 458 would handle the A.C. unit.
I also asked about solar panels. I took my trailer to Royal Coach. Withing 3 days they had installed 2 solar panels and the Xantrex 2000 Freedom 458 inverter.
MY wife and I took the trailer to dry camp near Pismo Beach. On a hot day I turned on the inverter. (A little nervous I might add since the 5000 watt inverter had failed so miserably.) I then turned on the A.C. Unit. It powered right up. In fact, it ran for 6.5 hours until I turned it off to go to dinner. My batteries were at 10.65 volts. When we returned 3 hours later from dinner the solar panels had charged the 6 batteries back to 12.35 volts. The purpose of this note is to encourage anyone considering an Inverter to purchase the Xantrex 2000 watt Freedom 458 inverter for a single AC unit. NOw, we do not need power from a RV Park.
I recommend the Xantrex 2000 Watt freedom 458 inverter. It cost me $2,100 for it to be installed. It was and is worth every penny. I no longer use propane to power the refrigerator and freezer unit. The inverter is on 100% of the time. The solar panels keep it charged. If you are looking for a high quality "suitcase" 100 watt solar panel I recommend Renogy. Go to renogy.com. Then click on solar kits and then click on suitcase. You will need the one that has the controller. ( $279.00) Just put both alligator clips on battery posts. I have 2 that I also use at various times on cloudy days to increase charging capacity.
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05-25-2017, 07:34 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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I wouldn't do that again.
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2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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05-25-2017, 07:46 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Englewood FL
Posts: 2,797
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Well, next time the run will be a lot shorter!!! Those batteries are going to age fast!
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2015 335DS
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05-25-2017, 08:36 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,060
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Misunderstanding/Labeled
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Reed
I purchased a 5000 watt inverter from the net for $600.00. Once connected to the 6 batteries I had installed on the front of my trailer - I turned on the A.C unit in my WildCat Maxx Forest River 2015 Trailer. The inverted breaker - popped. I tried it again - and again the inverter breaker popped.
****
I asked how could it at 2000 watts could power up the A.C Unit when the 5000 watt inverter I had purchased wouldn't.
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First you get what you pay for. If anyone offers you a brand new Rollls for 50K vs 200+, run don't walk.
If I recall (as an OEM), the $600 5K Xantrex is no different than the $400 Chinese Inverter at Harbor Freight - just relabeled. If you open the covers, each of the 4 outlet plugs are on "separate circuits" capable of only 1250 watts (10.4amps). You need a real inverter to handle those loads properly.
I used to use Xantrex I/Cs on my installs, R&Rs, ... but the new models S**K - long story. I've switched to using and installing the Samlex EVO-3012 3000W Pure Sine Inverter/Charger. It is a 3000watt I/C. 3K Inverter with 130 amp charger. It has exceeded all of my specifications and expectations. Quality, function, suitability, ease way exceeds Xantrex.
Again, here are pictures of my personal install - battery bank and I/C. I have the I/C output (2) switched wired to the main 120Vac CB Panel input C/Bs.
I run my Air Conditioners off the batteries & I/C ALL night as needed without needing a recharge to the Battery Bank. 2-4 hrs daytime before needing a recharge to Battery Bank.
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05-25-2017, 09:05 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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If your inverter didnt cut out before 10.6V... Its not setup correctly.
Mine shuts of @ 12.2V
__________________
2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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05-25-2017, 02:32 PM
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#6
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 4
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Xantrex 2000 Watt Inverter
I appreciate each of your comments; and the pictures. Not being an electrician or having a background in electronics I thought the 5000 watt inverter with a surge wattage to 32k would be more than adequate. And it is if -it actually was ! Obviously it didn't. That being said I am very happy with the Xantrex. This is copied from the owners manual " When in invert mode, if the battery voltage drops to 10.0 volts, the inverter will automatically shut off. The solar units obviously was supply amps to the batteries while using the inverter. But, in the future I will make every attempt to stop the inverter at 11.5 volts.
I appreciate all of your experiences and advice. Thank You.
Travel On !
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05-25-2017, 03:35 PM
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#7
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 90
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The max drawdown on the lead acid's should be about 50%...so, shoot for 12.0V or so based on the chart above...I'd also look at a few more charts, that one looks off based on my recollection.
I'm glad you posted this, I've discussed a/c off an inverter and there's a serious pushback based on...I'm not sure what. I know:
-older A/C's didn't have soft start capacitors in them
-some have fan delays
-these two serve to drastically reduce the startup amps required...I seem to recall about 80A for some compressors
-using a pure sine wave inverter will provide more useful power/efficiency, so a lower rated unit should be able to run it than would be required with a modified sine wave inverter
-most of the units are breaker'd at 20A, at 120V that's 2,400W.
-the Wynn's have a video with their A/C running and only consuming ~1,100W once started...peaked at ~80A temporarily
-mostly this seems to come down to inverter quality/characteristics and having an adequate battery bank.
What I haven't been able to find is any decent ratings on max draw's from GC2 or other lead acid batteries. I presume that the cold cranking amps are a reasonable indication you're not damaging them with a big draw on startup.
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05-25-2017, 04:10 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny kustom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottBrownstein
Well, next time the run will be a lot shorter!!! Those batteries are going to age fast!
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If they aren't shot already. Below 50% capacity they start gassing off and sulfating the plates.
I think they are probably screwed already. You cannot run heavy loads like an ac on just batteries, even 6 of them.
and...the solar panels won't bring a pooped out battery back that fast anyway.
That was basically a one shot deal.
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05-25-2017, 04:14 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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Yup
__________________
2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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05-25-2017, 04:15 PM
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#10
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip
If they aren't shot already. Below 50% capacity they start gassing off and sulfating the plates.
I think they are probably screwed already. You cannot run heavy loads like an ac on just batteries, even 6 of them.
and...the solar panels won't bring a pooped out battery back that fast anyway.
That was basically a one shot deal.
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Is there something about the A/C specifically that you think is bad? My expectation is that the draw was in the territory of 1,000W or ~ 83A, across six batteries this is ~14A draw on each. 14A is only 170W and there's definitely nothing wrong with that.
I agree that you shouldn't draw them to dead...I just don't see what the AC has to do with it.
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05-25-2017, 04:23 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,024
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Time to get 6 Li-Iron Group 27's and then you can pull them down to basically zip with no issue., you can recharge them from zero without any issues. The issue is, they cost $800.00 each., thats 4800 clams for the juice boxes.
Myself, I don't have that big of a wallet. Maybe the OP does.
Far as solar goes, you'd need to cover the roof of your RV to make sufficient redeposit to your batteries to account for the heavy withdrawl you are pulling out...
Used this analogy before concerning any flooded cell battery, AGM or conventional vented...
A battery is like a bank account. You fill the account and then draw the funds out. Unlike a bank account, there is a withdraw limit, that is 50% of the total deposit. If you withdraw consistently more than 50% of your savings, the (bank) battery closes your account forever.
Pretty simple really.
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05-25-2017, 04:43 PM
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#12
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip
Time to get 6 Li-Iron Group 27's and then you can pull them down to basically zip with no issue., you can recharge them from zero without any issues. The issue is, they cost $800.00 each., thats 4800 clams for the juice boxes.
Myself, I don't have that big of a wallet. Maybe the OP does.
Far as solar goes, you'd need to cover the roof of your RV to make sufficient redeposit to your batteries to account for the heavy withdrawl you are pulling out...
Used this analogy before concerning any flooded cell battery, AGM or conventional vented...
A battery is like a bank account. You fill the account and then draw the funds out. Unlike a bank account, there is a withdraw limit, that is 50% of the total deposit. If you withdraw consistently more than 50% of your savings, the (bank) battery closes your account forever.
Pretty simple really.
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Where'd you find Li batteries for $800?
Also, I just put 3 315W panels on my roof...and yes it did consume some space, 46 sq ft to be exact. I could have doubled that if flexible panels were more reasonably priced. If you really needed to, you could charge while running your a/c!
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05-25-2017, 05:15 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AB_SP295BHS
Where'd you find Li batteries for $800?
Also, I just put 3 315W panels on my roof...and yes it did consume some space, 46 sq ft to be exact. I could have doubled that if flexible panels were more reasonably priced. If you really needed to, you could charge while running your a/c!
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Battle Born Batteries, Reno, Nevada. Not Lithium Ion, Lithium Iron. No fire hazard.
In stock for immediate shipment. No venting required, can be put anywhere, even up side down. 800 a toss. 26 pounds a battery.
When I win the lotto, I'll be getting a couple for myself..
Until then, I'll be watching my discharge levels...
Goggle them up...
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05-25-2017, 07:32 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,832
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And just to put a cherry on it...your batteries didn't go back to 12.3V in 3 hours. You need a battery MONITOR not a voltmeter to measure STATE of CHARGE in a working battery that has been used or charged in the last 24 hours. (And you shouldn't ever go less than 50% SOC) Victron or Trimetric ...$150 bucks...You'll be replacing more than just the set of batteries you've partially ruined already unless you get one.
And no...you can't run your a/c off your batteries...even if it works a while. You're gonna get thermal failure if you don't have it already.
__________________
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Cam
2015 Georgetown 280DS
2019 Vespa Primavera 150's (pair)
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05-25-2017, 07:39 PM
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#15
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 4
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Disagree
Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie
And just to put a cherry on it...your batteries didn't go back to 12.3V in 3 hours. You need a battery MONITOR not a voltmeter to measure STATE of CHARGE in a working battery that has been used or charged in the last 24 hours. (And you shouldn't ever go less than 50% SOC) Victron or Trimetric ...$150 bucks...You'll be replacing more than just the set of batteries you've partially ruined already unless you get one.
And no...you can't run your a/c off your batteries...even if it works a while. You're gonna get thermal failure if you don't have it already.
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__________________________________________________ _____________
I bought this trailer to go to small parks along the coast. I also have a 2003 Prevost 45' bus. Each battery of 8 costs $800.00. I run my AC's - 2 of them at a time until the batteries drain down to 11.3 volts at which time ( factory set) the 20 Kvw generator auto starts and recharges the batteries using 2 - 50 watt converters. As I said, when I arrived back my bdigitial battery indicator stated 12.3 volts. Thanks for your concerns and comments.
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05-25-2017, 09:50 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Reed
__________________________________________________ _____________
I bought this trailer to go to small parks along the coast. I also have a 2003 Prevost 45' bus. Each battery of 8 costs $800.00. I run my AC's - 2 of them at a time until the batteries drain down to 11.3 volts at which time ( factory set) the 20 Kvw generator auto starts and recharges the batteries using 2 - 50 watt converters. As I said, when I arrived back my bdigitial battery indicator stated 12.3 volts. Thanks for your concerns and comments.
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1. Well you dont have $6400 of batteries on your trailer so that is apples and oranges. What DO you have on your trailer?? Brand Model Size... ??
2. Running any 12V battery down to 11.3V before charging it back up will kill any battery in short order...that is OVER 90% discharge. Your Prevost may have lithiums...and even those don't like it that low. Any standard or AGM lead battery will die in short order at 90% discharge. You may expect 1/3 the battery life you'd get at 50% discharge.
3. I think you made a typo...50 watt converters return less than 5 amps to the batteries (each) and at this rate would take roughly 20 hours to fill up just one 100 amp hour battery.Let alone $6400 worth of them.
4. Your prevost digital battery indicator may or may not be a monitor. It doesn't matter as I assume prevost is smart enough to design a recharging system to do the job right in whatever they installed. Point is...that has no relationship to your trailer and trailer charging system.
5. So lets get back to your trailer. Exactly how does a 100 watt Renergy panel which is good for 600 watts maximum on a bright sunny day...or 50 amp hours at 12V charge up those trailer batteries since a single A/C uses that much in about 15 minutes or less??
Anyway...there's a lot you're saying that makes no sense. If you are doing what you are saying on your trailer....you are killing your batteries quickly.
Either we don't have the full story or you don't understand enough about it to comment accurately.
What 4 batteries are you using on the trailer? Brand, Model, Size
What are you using to charge them other than the solar panel? Brand/model generator? Brand/model CHARGER.
Pictures of the batteries and charger would help
Absent that information I can't do anything but tell you to stop what you are doing as others have said.
Good luck with it all in any case.
__________________
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Cam
2015 Georgetown 280DS
2019 Vespa Primavera 150's (pair)
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05-25-2017, 10:30 PM
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#17
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip
Battle Born Batteries, Reno, Nevada. Not Lithium Ion, Lithium Iron. No fire hazard.
In stock for immediate shipment. No venting required, can be put anywhere, even up side down. 800 a toss. 26 pounds a battery.
When I win the lotto, I'll be getting a couple for myself..
Until then, I'll be watching my discharge levels...
Goggle them up...
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Thanks, have seen the battle born but not the price. That's not terrible...well, for lithium its not terrible! Agreed on the lifepo4 batteries, to me it looks like the flooded lead acid charge routines would be relatively compatible with them, not ideal but reasonable.
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05-25-2017, 10:41 PM
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#18
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie
And just to put a cherry on it...your batteries didn't go back to 12.3V in 3 hours. You need a battery MONITOR not a voltmeter to measure STATE of CHARGE in a working battery that has been used or charged in the last 24 hours. (And you shouldn't ever go less than 50% SOC) Victron or Trimetric ...$150 bucks...You'll be replacing more than just the set of batteries you've partially ruined already unless you get one.
And no...you can't run your a/c off your batteries...even if it works a while. You're gonna get thermal failure if you don't have it already.
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Have you considered that the batteries hadn't stabilized and that they were nowhere near as drawn as the immediate voltage indicated? And that the batteries weren't charged to 12.3v if that measurement was made immediately following the recharge?
Your comments are right on the voltage meter, I just feel there's a more helpful discussion to be had.
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05-25-2017, 11:01 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,832
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AB_SP295BHS
Have you considered that the batteries hadn't stabilized and that they were nowhere near as drawn as the immediate voltage indicated? And that the batteries weren't charged to 12.3v if that measurement was made immediately following the recharge?
Your comments are right on the voltage meter, I just feel there's a more helpful discussion to be had.
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Read this paragraph carefully:
Quote:
"MY wife and I took the trailer to dry camp near Pismo Beach. On a hot day I turned on the inverter. (A little nervous I might add since the 5000 watt inverter had failed so miserably.) I then turned on the A.C. Unit. It powered right up. In fact, it ran for 6.5 hours until I turned it off to go to dinner. My batteries were at 10.65 volts. When we returned 3 hours later from dinner the solar panels had charged the 6 batteries back to 12.35 volts. The purpose of this note is to encourage anyone considering an Inverter to purchase the Xantrex 2000 watt Freedom 458 inverter for a single AC unit. NOw, we do not need power from a RV Park."
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15 AC AMP draw = 150 amp hours x 6.5 hours= 1000 amp hours!!!
Are you seriously suggesting that they were nowhere near as drawn down as claimed and that his belief that a voltage reading from a 100 watt solar panel of 12.3 meant good things happening and that a more productive discussion needs to take place???
__________________
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Cam
2015 Georgetown 280DS
2019 Vespa Primavera 150's (pair)
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05-25-2017, 11:03 PM
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#20
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 90
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No, i'm suggesting a more helpful discussion could take place. Out.
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