Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-13-2016, 01:59 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
Kenny kustom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
I would argue that they are under engineered. It does explain why there are so many failures. I think the folks that participate in this forum are more savvy than most but there are many that don't have a clue just how little the margins are and consequently how overloaded they are.

How many axle failures have you seen?


2016 Sabre 36QBOK
2015 Ram 3500 CUMMINS
__________________
2017 Dynamax Isata 4
Kenny kustom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2016, 02:28 PM   #22
Phat Phrog Stunt Team
 
AquaMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tipp City, OH
Posts: 7,154
I think it could be said that they are precisely engineered. It's the end user that doesn't understand the engineering and ignores the numbers. If a trailer is engineered for 1000lbs or 10,000lbs of cargo, someone is going to say that "when I put 999/9,999lbs of cargo in I'm near overloaded". It's simple math.


Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums
__________________
2016 Georgetown 364TS
2017 Jeep Rubicon Recon toad
Nights Camped 2019 - 17
AquaMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2016, 09:48 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
Too Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 939
The 5th wheels have an advantage as you can put more weight in the bed than tongue weight on a travel trailer.
__________________
Rockwood 2104S, 2014 Ram 2500 Diesel.
USMC 68 -70
Too Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2016, 10:08 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
Too Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 939
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny kustom View Post
How many axle failures have you seen?


2016 Sabre 36QBOK
2015 Ram 3500 CUMMINS
My brother in law's 5th wheel had to have both axles changed but tire and axle issues are all over the forum. Folks upgrading axles and tires. I'd just feel better if I had a little more freeboard. You know, "Too strong Never Failed".
__________________
Rockwood 2104S, 2014 Ram 2500 Diesel.
USMC 68 -70
Too Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2016, 11:10 PM   #25
Always Learning
 
ependydad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Four Corners, FL
Posts: 21,890
Honestly, I'm overloaded. I have two 7,000 lb. axles and a 15,825 lb. GVWR. The advertised dry hitch weight at the time was 1,825 lbs. which tells me that's exactly how they arrived at the GVWR.

My most recent weighing came on at 16,800 lbs. I have 3,000 lbs. of pin weight and 13,800 lbs. on the axles (split evenly).

So, in the case of my camper- in order to exceed the axle weight rating, you have to really try.

IMO, tire issues are rampant. Axles issues are much fewer- and I'd bet a vast majority of those are due to misaligned/poorly installed axles vs. being in too heavy of situations.

(Interestingly, Sabre de-rated the GVWR to 14,666 lbs. in later years of the camper. So you have even more leeway, even though the axles still don't add up to the GVWR.)
__________________
Officially a SOB with a 2022 Jayco Precept 36C
Checkout my site for RVing tips, tricks, and info | Was a Fulltime Family for 5 years, now we're part-timing on long trips
ependydad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2016, 11:13 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
wyo700's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 903
I've got two 3500 lb axles under my toy hauler. With my sidexside stuffed in full of water and everything else my wife packs inside I have seen 7200 pounds on the scale. I was worried until I did some major research on my axles and some bigger. When I found out the only difference between an alco 3500 lb and 4000 pound axle was the outer bearing I stopped worrying. A slightly bigger bearing was all. So ever time I stop I checked my bearing temps. They are literally cool to the touch after driving for 100 miles at 65 mph. I'm not saying what I do is ok but I personally am fine with it.
__________________
2012 Sandstorm 203slc
2013 Toyota Tundra
Eqil-l-izer hitch,Prodigy P3
2014 Honda Pioneer 700-4
2004 Yamaha Grizzly 660
wyo700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 12:26 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Too Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 939
Quote:
Originally Posted by ependydad View Post
Honestly, I'm overloaded. I have two 7,000 lb. axles and a 15,825 lb. GVWR. The advertised dry hitch weight at the time was 1,825 lbs. which tells me that's exactly how they arrived at the GVWR.

My most recent weighing came on at 16,800 lbs. I have 3,000 lbs. of pin weight and 13,800 lbs. on the axles (split evenly).

So, in the case of my camper- in order to exceed the axle weight rating, you have to really try.

IMO, tire issues are rampant. Axles issues are much fewer- and I'd bet a vast majority of those are due to misaligned/poorly installed axles vs. being in too heavy of situations.

(Interestingly, Sabre de-rated the GVWR to 14,666 lbs. in later years of the camper. So you have even more leeway, even though the axles still don't add up to the GVWR.)
Agree, the issues are rampant.. As you mentioned, I think a lot of it is poor construction/ welding. I've had to reweld some things on mine. The water tank framework is just poor engineering. I carried about 1/3 tank of water and the angle iron bent and I nearly lost the tank. ha. I've rebuilt that with some heavier angle iron.
__________________
Rockwood 2104S, 2014 Ram 2500 Diesel.
USMC 68 -70
Too Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 12:32 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
Too Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 939
I think a solution to the issues with design and quality would be to have every employee travel across the US in an RV before they go to work on the assembly line. Same with the engineers. Sewer vents running thru the AC ducts, wiring issues, just some really stupid stuff. No excuse for that IMO. They need a couple of the old salts from this forum as part of the QC and design team.
__________________
Rockwood 2104S, 2014 Ram 2500 Diesel.
USMC 68 -70
Too Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 04:14 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Kenny kustom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Too Tall View Post
My brother in law's 5th wheel had to have both axles changed but tire and axle issues are all over the forum. Folks upgrading axles and tires. I'd just feel better if I had a little more freeboard. You know, "Too strong Never Failed".

I have 2k extra, and that's if I load my trailer to the max!
How much more do you want??


2016 Sabre 36QBOK
2015 Ram 3500 CUMMINS
__________________
2017 Dynamax Isata 4
Kenny kustom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 08:08 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
WolfWhistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaMan View Post
I think it could be said that they are precisely engineered. It's the end user that doesn't understand the engineering and ignores the numbers. If a trailer is engineered for 1000lbs or 10,000lbs of cargo, someone is going to say that "when I put 999/9,999lbs of cargo in I'm near overloaded". It's simple math.


Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums
Yes!... x10....
Get a grasp on this concept: if you buy a 10# sack and put 10# in it, it COULD break; after some use, and abuse the odds of that increase. It is insane to complain that the sack is under-engineered. Absolutely, insane. Repeat after me: INSANE.

The human tendency for the most part, is to want something for nothing; and particularly in America; the lowest price is the driver; quality be damned. The demand for cheap goods has driven manufacturing off shore and is hurting all of us.

The RV industry isn't being deceptive or dishonest, the numbers are right there on the rigs; in BRIGHT yellow! I think people go gaga at the fake granite and fake wood; most wouldn't know quality if it smacked them in the face, and if they find it they would shy away after seeing the price. But, they totally ignore the important things. It isn't the industry and its isn't the poor engineer that we should be beating on. We have met enemy and he is us.

WW
__________________
Hyper Lite was sold

2017 F-250 4x4 6.2L Gas
I can't fix everything, but I can make it so nobody else can
WolfWhistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 08:53 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
Airdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,839
his is from a NHTSA PDF Q&A document. It should be mandatory reading for those doing the PDI on their new trailer or MH before they sign on the dotted line.

"The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use."


On edit; Tires are fitted to GAWR on trailers and GVWR on MHs.
__________________
A Trailer Tire Poster
Airdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 08:55 AM   #32
Phat Phrog Stunt Team
 
TURBS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Iowa
Posts: 34,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfWhistle View Post
Yes!... x10....

Get a grasp on this concept: if you buy a 10# sack and put 10# in it, it COULD break; after some use, and abuse the odds of that increase. It is insane to complain that the sack is under-engineered. Absolutely, insane. Repeat after me: INSANE.



The human tendency for the most part, is to want something for nothing; and particularly in America; the lowest price is the driver; quality be damned. The demand for cheap goods has driven manufacturing off shore and is hurting all of us.



The RV industry isn't being deceptive or dishonest, the numbers are right there on the rigs; in BRIGHT yellow! I think people go gaga at the fake granite and fake wood; most wouldn't know quality if it smacked them in the face, and if they find it they would shy away after seeing the price. But, they totally ignore the important things. It isn't the industry and its isn't the poor engineer that we should be beating on. We have met enemy and he is us.



WW

I couldn't agree more!


2015 Columbus 320RS
2008 2500HD Duramax
2015 nights camped "34"
TURBS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 12:41 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wade N C
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo700 View Post
I've got two 3500 lb axles under my toy hauler. With my sidexside stuffed in full of water and everything else my wife packs inside I have seen 7200 pounds on the scale. I was worried until I did some major research on my axles and some bigger. When I found out the only difference between an alco 3500 lb and 4000 pound axle was the outer bearing I stopped worrying. A slightly bigger bearing was all. So ever time I stop I checked my bearing temps. They are literally cool to the touch after driving for 100 miles at 65 mph. I'm not saying what I do is ok but I personally am fine with it.
Per the Lippert manual the 3500 and 4400LB both take the same inner and outer bearings. Since I have the 4400 it make me wonder about my weight.
__________________
George Scott
2015 Salem Hemisphere Lite 272RLIS
2006 Heartland BH 3400/Summer Home
2021 Sabre 37FBT
Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 01:27 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 1,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty View Post
Per the Lippert manual the 3500 and 4400LB both take the same inner and outer bearings. Since I have the 4400 it make me wonder about my weight.
Mine as well. I have 4k axles but the bearings are the same as the 3500. This is because the 4k rated axles just use a beefier axle tube, but the same 3500 hubs.
__________________
Lee and Anne

2016 F250 2WD CC SB XLT 6.2 3,295 lb payload cap.
2014 Salem Hemisphere 282RK 8k lbs loaded, Equal-i-zer WDH, TST 507 TPMS
2021: 35 nights already booked so far
Teamfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 01:39 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
wyo700's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teamfour View Post
Mine as well. I have 4k axles but the bearings are the same as the 3500. This is because the 4k rated axles just use a beefier axle tube, but the same 3500 hubs.

Actually from what I found with al-co axles axle tubes for the 3500 and 4000 were the same 2 3/8 inch. Just the outer bearing made the difference. Now the 4400 pound jumped up to a 3 inch tube and had the same bearings as the 4000. But if wanted and 3500 pound axle could be ordered with a 3 inch tube. Figure that out. Even leaf springs were the same on all three axles. Was all changed with bearings. Only was their a big change once jumped to a 5200 pound axle where brakes and spindle sizes came into play.
__________________
2012 Sandstorm 203slc
2013 Toyota Tundra
Eqil-l-izer hitch,Prodigy P3
2014 Honda Pioneer 700-4
2004 Yamaha Grizzly 660
wyo700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 04:19 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 1,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo700 View Post
Actually from what I found with al-co axles axle tubes for the 3500 and 4000 were the same 2 3/8 inch. Just the outer bearing made the difference. Now the 4400 pound jumped up to a 3 inch tube and had the same bearings as the 4000. But if wanted and 3500 pound axle could be ordered with a 3 inch tube. Figure that out. Even leaf springs were the same on all three axles. Was all changed with bearings. Only was their a big change once jumped to a 5200 pound axle where brakes and spindle sizes came into play.

Interesting. When I called Lippert they said the bearing set was the same for their 3500 and 4400 axles. I sure hope so since I have a set as spares. Earlier I mistakenly said my axles are 4000. Click image for larger version

Name:	ImageUploadedByTapatalk1457990330.807069.jpg
Views:	1233
Size:	242.0 KB
ID:	101918
__________________
Lee and Anne

2016 F250 2WD CC SB XLT 6.2 3,295 lb payload cap.
2014 Salem Hemisphere 282RK 8k lbs loaded, Equal-i-zer WDH, TST 507 TPMS
2021: 35 nights already booked so far
Teamfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 04:25 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
wyo700's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 903
Brand New Trailer - Axles Too Light for GVWR

So the difference with your axle is probably the axle tube size.

Another thing that was interesting to me was I had a good friend that had bought a stealth toy hauler. I have a sandstorm they are pretty much exactly the same. But he had 5200 pound axles under his. I was looking closely at the leaf springs and I swear they were identical. Length size width all of it. Was quite surprised.
__________________
2012 Sandstorm 203slc
2013 Toyota Tundra
Eqil-l-izer hitch,Prodigy P3
2014 Honda Pioneer 700-4
2004 Yamaha Grizzly 660
wyo700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 04:29 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Wade N C
Posts: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo700 View Post
Actually from what I found with al-co axles axle tubes for the 3500 and 4000 were the same 2 3/8 inch. Just the outer bearing made the difference. Now the 4400 pound jumped up to a 3 inch tube and had the same bearings as the 4000. But if wanted and 3500 pound axle could be ordered with a 3 inch tube. Figure that out. Even leaf springs were the same on all three axles. Was all changed with bearings. Only was their a big change once jumped to a 5200 pound axle where brakes and spindle sizes came into play.
Yea just doesn't seem to make since. What will the axles in these ranges really support????? Dumb design, but then after 30+ years of owning RVs I'm getting use to "bare minimum". I agree, weights are posted and it's our charge to "Read and Heed". However, for those of us that have axles in this range, what should we actually believe. 2 x 3500= 7,000 or 2 x 4400= 8800?
__________________
George Scott
2015 Salem Hemisphere Lite 272RLIS
2006 Heartland BH 3400/Summer Home
2021 Sabre 37FBT
Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 04:31 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 1,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo700 View Post
So the difference with your axle is probably the axle tube size.

Another thing that was interesting to me was I had a good friend that had bought a stealth toy hauler. I have a sandstorm they are pretty much exactly the same. But he had 5200 pound axles under his. I was looking closely at the leaf springs and I swear they were identical. Length size width all of it. Was quite surprised.

This is straight from an engineer at Lippert:

"In the evaluation of up-rating the 3500# axle to 4400# we discovcered we needed to only change the axle tube and leaf spring to a heavier version. The remaining components; spindle, brake, hub, bearing set etc have more than sufficient strength and performance to handle the 4400# axle loads and meet our minimum safety margins. The brakes meet CSA D313 braking standards along with the hubs. The bearing set we have calculated the expected life assuming proper maintenancce is done and it exceeds 50,000 miles. The published bearing ratings still exceed the rated axle capacity."
__________________
Lee and Anne

2016 F250 2WD CC SB XLT 6.2 3,295 lb payload cap.
2014 Salem Hemisphere 282RK 8k lbs loaded, Equal-i-zer WDH, TST 507 TPMS
2021: 35 nights already booked so far
Teamfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2016, 05:45 PM   #40
Senior Member
 
wyo700's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 903
That is some interesting info. Which leads me to believe my "3500" pound axle is gonna be fine. Because a newer bigger more expensive camper is not in the budget right now. And we really like our toy hauler it suits our needs great.
__________________
2012 Sandstorm 203slc
2013 Toyota Tundra
Eqil-l-izer hitch,Prodigy P3
2014 Honda Pioneer 700-4
2004 Yamaha Grizzly 660
wyo700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
axle, light, trailer

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Forest River, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:36 AM.