Brand New Trailer - Axles Too Light for GVWR

[WolfWhistle]

FYI, when my 4400# dexters were upgraded to 5200#, the brake parts (all) moved over.. The parts it took (what FR sent to local dealer) was axles, springs and equalizer. I am only assuming the spindles took the same bearings since the drums moved over. The ride height if it changed at all, was only slightly higher.
WW

[Scotty]

Originally Posted by WolfWhistle

FYI, when my 4400# dexters were upgraded to 5200#, the brake parts (all) moved over.. The parts it took (what FR sent to local dealer) was axles, springs and equalizer. I am only assuming the spindles took the same bearings since the drums moved over. The ride height if it changed at all, was only slightly higher.
WW

Now that makes me wonder, as I have the Lippert manual open and it shows the 4400lb brakes as 10" with a 4 hole bolt pattern and the 5200lb brakes as 12" with a 5 hole pattern. Not to say that you 4 bolt pattern may not bolt up, but if you have 10 X 2.25 vice 12 x 2" brake shoes you may still have 4400lb brakes!!! Just saying.

[Too Tall]

Originally Posted by WolfWhistle

Yes!... x10....
Get a grasp on this concept: if you buy a 10# sack and put 10# in it, it COULD break; after some use, and abuse the odds of that increase. It is insane to complain that the sack is under-engineered. Absolutely, insane. Repeat after me: INSANE.

The human tendency for the most part, is to want something for nothing; and particularly in America; the lowest price is the driver; quality be damned. The demand for cheap goods has driven manufacturing off shore and is hurting all of us.

The RV industry isn't being deceptive or dishonest, the numbers are right there on the rigs; in BRIGHT yellow! I think people go gaga at the fake granite and fake wood; most wouldn't know quality if it smacked them in the face, and if they find it they would shy away after seeing the price. But, they totally ignore the important things. It isn't the industry and its isn't the poor engineer that we should be beating on. We have met enemy and he is us.

WW

I wholeheartedly agree, RV makers know what sells RVs - glitz and flat screen TV's. I don't think the RV industry is deceptive or dishonest as you mentioned, it's a business with shareholders as priority. (FR owned by Warren Buffet). But there little doubt about quality, maybe except for an RV sales person. Labor costs are so high and the prices low, a lot of corners are cut, as well as the quality of the materials use. I get your point on NAFTA but these things are made by Americans. Design also has to take some of the blame. It's a very competitive business for sure. For me, at my point in my life, cost is not important but quality is. I feel sorry for folks who have to finance their RV for a period of time longer than it will actually last.

[Too Tall]

Originally Posted by Kenny kustom

I have 2k extra, and that's if I load my trailer to the max!
How much more do you want??


2016 Sabre 36QBOK
2015 Ram 3500 CUMMINS

Kenny, Thanks, I understand your point. But do you have 2K extra based on the GVWR or axle load. I weighted my little RV the other day and my GVWR, leaves 80 lbs before I'm overloaded. I weigh 200 so I'll have to sleep in the truck, ha, ha.

[AquaMan]

Originally Posted by Too Tall

Kenny, Thanks, I understand your point. But do you have 2K extra based on the GVWR or axle load. I weighted my little RV the other day and my GVWR, leaves 80 lbs before I'm overloaded. I weigh 200 so I'll have to sleep in the truck, ha, ha.

That only means you put too much stuff into your RV. If the stuff you take is required, you should have bought a bigger trailer. (I have seen 42' 5ers with low cargo for the size though, I had one, but was not overloaded). This is what I've been trying to say all along. People max out the weight of a trailer, then blame the engineers for designing it with not enough cargo weight. You wouldn't buy a 2500lb gvwr flat bed trailer to haul 3000lb. Same goes for a camper. Everyone needs to take a little bit of responsabilty here.

[Too Tall]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

That only means you put too much stuff into your RV. If the stuff you take is required, you should have bought a bigger trailer. (I have seen 42' 5ers with low cargo for the size though, I had one, but was not overloaded). This is what I've been trying to say all along. People max out the weight of a trailer, then blame the engineers for designing it with not enough cargo weight. You wouldn't buy a 2500lb gvwr flat bed trailer to haul 3000lb. Same goes for a camper. Everyone needs to take a little bit of responsabilty here.

Yes, I weighted it as heavy as I could get it other than some clothing and food supplies. (I'll have to watch my wife with the can goods.) I had full propane and I recently added 2 - 6 volt batteries which added an additional 120 lbs on the tongue. I weighted it with a full tank of water (30 gal) so to stay within the GVWR, I'll may have to leave some water out. My axles which are 2200 x 2 dexters had 1920 front and 1980 back so I'm not overloaded on the axles even with water. What was surprising, is my tongue weight was 860 lbs. Gross trailer weight was 4780. That seems heavy but I'm happy to put it on the rear of the RAM as it easily handles that even without the distribution bars. (just going to the scales). The water tank is about halfway between the tongue and the hitch.

[emm-dee]

I think most of the info here is pretty accurate, but I'll add another factor. I have a Forest River enclosed utility trailer with a sticker gross weight of 2980 pounds. The single axle is rated at 3,500 pounds and the tires are 1870 each (3,740 total).

I couldn't figure out why all the different numbers but when I asked an independent shop about it they told me that any trailer without brakes installed from the factory were always placarded at 2,980 or less. Since I was at the shop to purchase a set of brakes, they checked the trailer and said that with the brakes I was good for 3,500 pounds. I asked about the springs and got the same number, but they also said they would be glad to install a 5,200 pound axle/spring combo since the frame would easily handle that. Don't need that because the heaviest weight I carry is a small Kubota tractor tipping the scales at just under 1,500 pounds.

So, in this case the gross weight is limited by legalities of brake status.

[WolfWhistle]

In Florida trailers 3000# or more must have trailer brakes, as well as breakaway, and there is a 40% weight requirement.

There is more to weight ratings, than what the frame, springs, axles and tires can carry. Brakes, as was pointed out can be a limiting factor.

Florida statute XXIII chap 316...

(3) BRAKES ON ALL WHEELS.—Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels except:
(a) Trailers, semitrailers, or pole trailers of a gross weight not exceeding 3,000 pounds, provided that:
1. The total weight on and including the wheels of the trailer or trailers shall not exceed 40 percent of the gross weight of the towing vehicle when connected to the trailer or trailers; and .... (also)
....
(4) AUTOMATIC TRAILER BRAKE APPLICATION UPON BREAKAWAY.—Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with air or vacuum-actuated brakes, every trailer and semitrailer with a gross weight in excess of 3,000 pounds, and every pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of 3,000 pounds manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least 15 minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
(5) TRACTOR BRAKES PROTECTED.—Every motor vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, and used to tow a trailer, semitrailer, or pole trailer equipped with brakes, shall be equipped with means for providing that in case of breakaway of the towed vehicle, the towing vehicle will be capable of being stopped by the use of its service brakes.

[SuicideSaints]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

I think it could be said that they are precisely engineered. It's the end user that doesn't understand the engineering and ignores the numbers. If a trailer is engineered for 1000lbs or 10,000lbs of cargo, someone is going to say that "when I put 999/9,999lbs of cargo in I'm near overloaded". It's simple math.


Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums

100 percent agree. It is the end user that doesn't buy "enough" trailer. They load it up and then cry that it's FRs fault, buy a bigger trailer for your needs. Don't cry because you didn't research and don't understand the numbers

[TURBS]

Originally Posted by SuicideSaints

100 percent agree. It is the end user that doesn't buy "enough" trailer. They load it up and then cry that it's FRs fault, buy a bigger trailer for your needs. Don't cry because you didn't research and don't understand the numbers

I agree

[midnightpumpkin]

Yea But, the salesman said I could tow this 35 ft trailer with 3 slides with my 1/2 ton pickup!

John U

[Ford Idaho]

Originally Posted by midnightpumpkin

Yea But, the salesman said I could tow this 35 ft trailer with 3 slides with my 1/2 ton pickup!

John U

Haaa!, I tow that one with my 1973 Chebby Luv!

[aceinspp]

Anything to make a sale. Later RJD

[SuicideSaints]

Even for the ones that say "the salesman said this" my comment above still applies " it is the responsibility of the end user to research and understand". I bought a TT with a low CCC fully understanding I can't carry half my house. If I carry and bunch of stuff and it's overweight that is my fault not anyone else's. I put that stuff in there not and salesman or the engineer. I loaded it up. If I loaded up my stuff and I'm at the limit that is my fault for not buying a bigger more capable unit.

I hate every thread on this forum that blames FR or engineering for them overloading the unit and then it gets damaged. Every thread that states they bent an axle or their frame cracked and the unit is overloaded and they come on here blaming FR saying FR should have put X poundage axles on it, look they do put higher poundage axles on a TT, it's just the next model up that has a bigger capacity and costs more.

I'll step down from my soap box now.

[TURBS]

Originally Posted by SuicideSaints

Even for the ones that say "the salesman said this" my comment above still applies " it is the responsibility of the end user to research and understand". I bought a TT with a low CCC fully understanding I can't carry half my house. If I carry and bunch of stuff and it's overweight that is my fault not anyone else's. I put that stuff in there not and salesman or the engineer. I loaded it up. If I loaded up my stuff and I'm at the limit that is my fault for not buying a bigger more capable unit.

I hate every thread on this forum that blames FR or engineering for them overloading the unit and then it gets damaged. Every thread that states they bent an axle or their frame cracked and the unit is overloaded and they come on here blaming FR saying FR should have put X poundage axles on it, look they do put higher poundage axles on a TT, it's just the next model up that has a bigger capacity and costs more.

I'll step down from my soap box now.

Kinda like this guy who blamed forest river for a bent frame?


And forgot to mention he was using a swivel wheel hauling a golf cart ?

[SuicideSaints]

Exactly, I am in no way affiliated with FR other than I bought an EVO TT from them, but that made me so mad reading that whole ordeal. That's the worst I've seen.

A clear case of improper use, overloading, blatant disregard for established weights and parameters set by FR and he was blaming FR saying he did nothing wrong and didn't mis-use or abuse anything in anyway whatsoever. Once all the pics surfaced that guy bolted in a hurry.

All these people saying the axle broke, sagged, whatever blaming FR and you ask them "what's you weight, have you been to a scale" and they say no, then I say how do you know this is FRs fault, they say it's not overweight FR has an engineering problem. When if they just weighed their set up they'd know they were overweight so the fault falls back on them.

I don't say this to be the "weight
Police" but rather for people to realize the misuse and abuse they are doing and to understand "why" when something breaks or fails.

[emm-dee]

There's also a small "gotcha" that might be overlooked by some.

On my Vengeance 25, the yellow sticker publishes a maximum axle load of 5080. But, look on the axle at it says 5200. The 5,080 figure comes from the load rating of the supplied tires (D load of 2,540 pounds each) x two equals 5,080.

Now, upgrading to the E (2,800+) load tires means that the "real" axle limit of 5,200 "should" be able to used, right? Well one would think so, but FR said the max load was 5,080 on the sticker and if I actually load the axle to 5,200 (unlikely) FR would have a very valid argument if something happens because they told me not to go over 5,080.

Fortunately I'll never have to deal with that situation. With my trailer fully loaded, and I mean full load with Harley, propane, water, and a whole lot of other stuff I probably don't really need, the CAT scale shows a load of 3,350 on one axle and 3,310 on the other. Since I can only load another 2,100 pounds to reach max trailer weight total of 9,800 pounds you can see I would only put about 1,100 (plus or minus) on each axle. That was one of the reasons I chose the Vengeance over the Grey Wolf (same floor plan) because the Vengeance has an additional 1,000 pounds of carrying capacity.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

There's also a small "gotcha" that might be overlooked by some.

Now, upgrading to the E (2,800+) load tires means that the "real" axle limit of 5,200 "should" be able to used, right? Well one would think so, but FR said the max load was 5,080 on the sticker and if I actually load the axle to 5,200 (unlikely) FR would have a very valid argument if something happens because they told me not to go over 5,080.

Very true, because FR said so on the certification label.

GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) - Is the maximum
permissible weight, including cargo, fluids, optional
equipment and accessories that can be safely supported

by a combination of all axles.

That is a verbatim quote from the 2016 FR fifth wheel owner's manual.

[Too Tall]

Originally Posted by SuicideSaints

100 percent agree. It is the end user that doesn't buy "enough" trailer. They load it up and then cry that it's FRs fault, buy a bigger trailer for your needs. Don't cry because you didn't research and don't understand the numbers

This will probably cause you to go back on your soap box but it's not meant to. I wish FR offered an option to upgrade to the next size axles and wheels. On some models, moving to a bigger trailer doesn't give you much more CCC. I would happily pay the extra cost of an axle upgrade and bigger tires if they offered that. I'm not overloaded and do use the scales but with just normal camping gear and 30 gallons of water, I'm within 200 lbs of each axle. That's closer than I'd like to be. I'd also pay extra for some extra TLC in the construction process if it would yield better construction and fewer mistakes.

[TURBS]

Originally Posted by Too Tall

This will probably cause you to go back on your soap box but it's not meant to. I wish FR offered an option to upgrade to the next size axles and wheels. On some models, moving to a bigger trailer doesn't give you much more CCC. I would happily pay the extra cost of an axle upgrade and bigger tires if they offered that. I'm not overloaded and do use the scales but with just normal camping gear and 30 gallons of water, I'm within 200 lbs of each axle. That's closer than I'd like to be. I'd also pay extra for some extra TLC in the construction process if it would yield better construction and fewer mistakes.

They problem is in most cases they can't "legally" go up an axle weight or tire size.
The unit as a whole is engineered for a specific weight.
Going up in axle size would in effect mean you'd load more weight into the unit and many other areas couldn't "handle" the additional weight or stress.