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Old 10-29-2015, 11:09 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by gectisme View Post
MilCop4523,
Let preface this by saying I am new to TT's so I am in a heavy learning curve.

My WindJammer has ST225/75R15 tires and they have a speed rating of 75mph, why do you say all ST tires have a max speed rating of 65? Maybe I am missing some info?

Nope you are not missing anything.

The Speed rating of ST tires is very new. Started in early 2015
You are one of the lucky ones that have tires from a company that stepped up to the challenge. This means your tires are made more like latest technology as used in most other P type and LT type tires and not technology from 1970
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Old 10-29-2015, 11:26 AM   #162
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Tires are an interesting subject as I have no idea when ST tires started being used I suspect in the grand scheme is has not been that long. Maybe in the 1990s....... My 1988 Terry came with "P" rated tires but it only weighed 4500 lbs . The first trailer I owned with STs was the 1994 box trailer but not sure if they were the originals.

As far as why Cunningham will only use ST tires on a trailer I too suspect its liability but do not know he stays so busy he opened the 2 other stores. But his prices are hard to beat.... at least in our area......

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Old 10-29-2015, 11:27 AM   #163
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Tires are an interesting subject as I have no idea when ST tires started being used I suspect in the grand scheme is has not been that long. Maybe in the 1990s....... My 1988 Terry came with "P" rated tires but it only weighed 4500 lbs . The first trailer I owned with STs was the 1994 box trailer but not sure if they were the originals.

As far as why Cunningham will only use ST tires on a trailer I too suspect its liability but do not know he stays so busy he opened the 2 other stores. But his prices are hard to beat.... at least in our area......

I had an 1988 terry as well with p tires.
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Old 10-29-2015, 12:32 PM   #164
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On my 30RL the tire pressure was max 80lb, with the Goodyear LT the max tire pressure is 110lb


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Old 10-29-2015, 12:43 PM   #165
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My rims are not stamped anywhere ST only. My situation was that Black tire in NC just refused to put on anything except ST. That could be there policy, they also said that, I have the opportunity to have another shop put on LT. But they refused by there policy and I guess what they think is a liability issue. Is there one I doubt it, but that is there policy. They also read the pressure rated stamped inside, and said the most I could move up was from "C" to "D". So I bought Marathon ST "D" rated....

I have let Blacks balance my tires before but if I buy tires now the first place I look is Walmart online. Walmart will sell a road hazard warranty on LT tires and Blacks will not. If I can't buy the tires at Walmart then I know someone that just sells tires and he will beat Blacks price.


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Old 10-29-2015, 01:22 PM   #166
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there are triple axle toy haulers and other large 5th wheels....now i don't know what tires are on there...i had a triple axle gooseneck trailer [six tires not 12]...i was amazed at seeing the flexing and scuffing going on at slow speed turns....with news of blowouts and people getting killed i can see tire dealers being weary about right application [on account of lawyers]... but 2 axle trailers ...guess you still have to strive for right application....18000lb gw to 4500 gross weight.
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:53 PM   #167
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What I don't understand is how RV companies can claim the tires they select are the only ones appropriate for use on the RV given that they are not willing to stand behind their choice and offer a meaningful warranty on the tires they have selected. Can you provide a list of RV companies that offer multi-year warranties on these special tires that were so carefully selected by the RV company?

It’s not so much the selection process that counts. It’s the fact that the vehicle manufacturer has certified their use on the federal certification label. All P=passenger, LT=light truck an ST=special trailer tires are authorized for use on RV trailers. But because one manufacturer uses LT tires does not open the door for their use on other brands or models.

IMO the "misapplication" is not much more than a back door escape clause to be used when a company does not want to stand behind their product or when they can point to the fact that the change from OE size resulted in a decrease in load capacity or lower speed capabilities or perhaps the use of a highway tire in off-road application or summer tire in winter driving.

There are loopholes in all regulations and standards. But, without the basic regulations and standards for replacing OE tires the process would be haphazard at best.

Could you provide links to warranty literature that says that the use of an LT tire in any application where an LT was not the OE application would void the warranty?

http://media.michelinman.com/content/dam/master/Michelin/pdf/Owners_Manual_Post_Promise_Plan.pdf - page 3

http://www.keystonerv.com/media/728922/owners_manual_final_4-25-13.pdf - page 18

Given your apparent position, I trust that you would consider it a misapplication if an owner wanted to use LT type tires on small pick-up trucks that were delivered with passenger type tires. Maybe you could ask one of those knowledgeable people to contact me so they can educate me as to the design features in an LT tire that would make it deficient for application on a trailer or make it somehow deficient if ever used on a small pick-up that was delivered with passenger type tires.

The automotive fitments have other rules that provide listings of acceptable replacements. The process is not compatible with the RV trailer tire fitment rules. And, what you have presented above is a plus sizing situation. The industry has clear steps of procedures for such fitments.

The concept that an LT type tire that exceeds both the load capacity and speed rating and warranty time of the ST tire it was replacing is somehow deficient seems like a long stretch considering the fact that the RV company can not demonstrate having done any technical evaluation for the selection of tires for use on the RV other than meeting the needed load capacity published in some letter of booklet.

Somewhere in the tire manufacturing process the parties building tires and RV trailers met to determine the needs of the trailer builders. In that process the TRA must have got involved and produced tire sizes and inflation charts for those sizes. it’s a no brainier selecting the correct tire from such listings. RV trailer manufacturers build to a GVWR.

I have never heard the term "LT Hybrid" before. It is not recognized in US Tire & Rim Association spec book. Where can I learn about this new type of tire?


I used the word hybrid (composed of mixed parts) because I feel it’s a needed term for such tires as the GY G614s that are LT235/85R16G tires with “for trailer use only” printed right on their sidewalls.

The strict rule that only the replacement of the OE tire with an exact replacement creates significant problems for a few trailer owners. I have identified a few applications when the tire selected and provided by the RV company does not follow the published load and inflation tables and in fact is only allowed because that specific tire importer submitted a letter to NHTSA claiming that the tire was capable of carrying the load that would allow the tires to meet the load capacity requirements in federal regulations. I got this information directly from NHTSA when questioning how it was legal for a tire to be supplied when the load capacity molded on the tire did not meet the GAWR. Nowhere in the literature from the RV company was the manufacturer of that brand tire identified as the only acceptable replacements.

As I understand it such letters would be necessary for tires of the same size and load range that have more than one published load capacity. That would be the ST235/80R16E which has published load capacities of 3420#, 3500# and 3520# all at 80 psi. Without documentation they would all default to the lowest published load capacity making the 3420# tires unsuitable for use on GAWRs of 6840# or more.

As a side note. In all that RV literature that you read have you ever seen a mention of the max speed rating of the tires the RV company has selected as appropriate? I would think that this is an important bit of information for them to provide the prospective owner of the RV.

As it would also be for cars and pick-up trucks.
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Old 10-29-2015, 02:17 PM   #168
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I just checked with my insurance carrier and was advised in Canada at least if i were to install LT tires (which in the same size and inflation limits) have a lighter carrying of weight ratio and had an accident - my insurance would be voided.

That being said the ST tires have a max continuious spped rating of 65 miles per hour - which most highway haulers exceed for sustained periods causing temp breakdown.
I had switched out our biasply Chineese tires and put Kumho Eurometrics on in the LT format on our 2012 Salem when we had it becasue they were still over the capabilities of the weight being loaded.

I'd rather be safe than dead or sorry that my installing LT's on my 5th wheel which is heavier could cause a slim margin of being acceptable.
we went with the Maxxis 8008's instead.
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Old 10-29-2015, 07:25 PM   #169
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I just checked with my insurance carrier and was advised in Canada at least if i were to install LT tires (which in the same size and inflation limits) have a lighter carrying of weight ratio and had an accident - my insurance would be voided.

That being said the ST tires have a max continuious spped rating of 65 miles per hour - which most highway haulers exceed for sustained periods causing temp breakdown.
I had switched out our biasply Chineese tires and put Kumho Eurometrics on in the LT format on our 2012 Salem when we had it becasue they were still over the capabilities of the weight being loaded.

I'd rather be safe than dead or sorry that my installing LT's on my 5th wheel which is heavier could cause a slim margin of being acceptable.
we went with the Maxxis 8008's instead.
Did you ask if your coverage would be void if the replacement tires had equal or greater load capacity plus higher speed capability than the tires being replaced?
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:20 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
Did you ask if your coverage would be void if the replacement tires had equal or greater load capacity plus higher speed capability than the tires being replaced?
To answer your specific questions above:

Yes this was asked
their answer was I would be insured however,
and there always seems to be a however...

"The specific design of the ST trailer tires side wall is such that it will withstand flexion and side wall impacts to a greater degree than LT's.
Curb scuffing plus up to 90 degree spot turns aka scrubbing twists ST tires core design - something which P and LT truck tires would not be exposed to on a repeated basis...."

"Whereas ST tires are industry designed for Travel Trailers and LT truck tires are designed for trucks and not trailers- there is no manner in which we the underwriter can insure that if you have LT tires on your trailer that they have not met with a degree of normal use that would not have caused the failure to which an ST trailer tire would have withstood."

In our remembering that the tires replacing the originals must meet the
Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) limits specified by the manufacturer (found on a decal on the trailer) made up of the unit itself plus the actual weight of the items used to fully load the trailer, including all cargo, fluids, and optional equipment, as measured by a scale.

for instance:
on the 2012 Salem we had the original tires were a bias ply -
swithed to radials but in a Eurometric "E" rated tire which surpassed the original tires in both weight and speed capabilities.

Another thing that was mentioned by 3 tire businesses here was that
a one spec size wider on the rimsize would add stability to the trailer. As a result 2 dealers spec'ed my original rims out to see if they would support for air pressure increase with that different tire config.

I was also reminded that increasing air pressure does not increase load carrying ability of the tire...

Whereas the replacement tires exceeded the manufacturers minimum specs for both weight distribution and speed capabilities and the rims were capable of sustaining the air pressure increase - if we had an accident - we would be covered. The eurometric tires are used overseas for trailer towing and commercial applications. They are different than LT truck tires.

For the 2009 Sundance - heavier trailer
No LT tire would match the weight classification in the 225/R75/15 tire size. Close but with the loaded amount - just short.

so we had to settle for ST's.
We tow with a TST monitoring system and watch the readouts as part of my cursory checks while driving.

I've seen no appreciatable increase in tire temp if hauling at 110 kms an hour vs the 104 (65mph). Weight is distrubuted as even as possible.

Insurance claims are one of 3 things you can't cheat on and they will always get the better of you in their favor.

The other 2 are Death and Taxes.

i guess as far as my family is concerned if the tires i am replacing with are a better standard originally used, (and that includes the side wall configuration as well as load capacity and speed rating) then it makes sense.

To merely switch from an ST tire to an LT tire because I can get more speed out of it but loose the sidewall durability - I'll choose my tire wisely for my families sake and the sake of safety to others on the road.

I'm still suprized that some manufacturers are legally permitted to use bias ply tires.
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:36 AM   #171
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On my 30RL the tire pressure was max 80lb, with the Goodyear LT the max tire pressure is 110lb


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I'm not a tire SME but I've been urged to be aware that the rims on my 5th wheel may or may not be capable of handling the increased pressure of a different tire as to what you are referring to.

last thing i would want is my rim splitting on one or all 4 rims driving down the I-95.

increasing pressure in the tire apparently by all literature does not increase load carrying ability of the tire itself.
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Old 10-30-2015, 10:15 AM   #172
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I'm not a tire SME but I've been urged to be aware that the rims on my 5th wheel may or may not be capable of handling the increased pressure of a different tire as to what you are referring to.

last thing i would want is my rim splitting on one or all 4 rims driving down the I-95.

increasing pressure in the tire apparently by all literature does not increase load carrying ability of the tire itself.

That's what it says on the tire and also on the side of camper. 110lb, what would do put less?


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Old 10-30-2015, 11:43 AM   #173
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spock123

to answer your last question...
I would question the following:
your original post states "On my 30RL the tire pressure was max 80 lb, with the Goodyear LT the max tire pressure is 110 lb"

then you added

"That's what it says on the tire and also on the side of camper. 110lb, what would do put less?"

Not being familiar with your trailer, I would have to question why the manufacturer posted the MAX cold air pressure is 110 lbs on the trailer and install tires rated for a MAX of 80lbs as you state were on it.

If you followed the vehicle spec label wouldn't you be at risk of having service technicians over pressuring the tires and thereby increase the risk of tire blow out at the 110 lb trailer designation on a max 80 lb tire limitation?

For example I replaced the "P" rated tires on my truck to "LT" tires for hauling the trailer.

If you underinflated the tires you would risk tire damage would you not?


Every time the dealership servicing my truck for air pressure adjustment they look at the vehicle sheet on the door regardless of the type of tires installed. I always have 36 lbs in it when they should be 55 lbs. Excessive Tire wear is probable if the condition persists.

If you've had or know someone who has had even one issue with a trailer (and you know plenty by simply being on the forum here) never put all your faith in the sticker.


Normally Trailer rims are stamped on the back with "max load" and "max pressure"

To answer your question of:


"That's what it says on the tire and also on the side of camper. 110 lb, what would do put less?"

Logic dictates that before I put 110 lbs in as per the Goodyear tire MAX cold air pressure stipulations, I'd be sure the rim to which the tire is attached could hold the 110 lbs for the upgraded tire requirements.

Simply put - I'd check the back side of the rim for specs to be reassured that the manufacturer didn't make a human error.




"
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:52 PM   #174
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On my 30RL the tires were Westlake st max air on tire 80lb. On my 32RL that I have now, Goodyear LT tires max air 110lb. The Westlake worked for me, I kept them at 80lb and a 507 TPMS on them. I keep the Goodyear tires at 100lb. Should I trade for a Cedar Creek 36CKTS the Goodyear LT tires that I have now will be put on the new camper and the st tires that come on the new camper will be put on the camper that I have now.


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Old 10-30-2015, 01:21 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by MilCop4523 View Post
To answer your specific questions above:

Yes this was asked
their answer was I would be insured however,
and there always seems to be a however...

"The specific design of the ST trailer tires side wall is such that it will withstand flexion and side wall impacts to a greater degree than LT's.
Curb scuffing plus up to 90 degree spot turns aka scrubbing twists ST tires core design - something which P and LT truck tires would not be exposed to on a repeated basis...."

Have to wonder where that person is getting their information. Can they point to any industry standard of government regulatory test for the above conditions? IMO this sounds like a nice excuse to deny coverage while accepting no responsibility for demonstrating a tire is capable of passing some fictious test criteria.


"Whereas ST tires are industry designed for Travel Trailers and LT truck tires are designed for trucks and not trailers- there is no manner in which we the underwriter can insure that if you have LT tires on your trailer that they have not met with a degree of normal use that would not have caused the failure to which an ST trailer tire would have withstood."

In our remembering that the tires replacing the originals must meet the
Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) limits specified by the manufacturer (found on a decal on the trailer) made up of the unit itself plus the actual weight of the items used to fully load the trailer, including all cargo, fluids, and optional equipment, as measured by a scale.

for instance:
on the 2012 Salem we had the original tires were a bias ply -
swithed to radials but in a Eurometric "E" rated tire which surpassed the original tires in both weight and speed capabilities.

Another thing that was mentioned by 3 tire businesses here was that
a one spec size wider on the rimsize would add stability to the trailer. As a result 2 dealers spec'ed my original rims out to see if they would support for air pressure increase with that different tire config.

I was also reminded that increasing air pressure does not increase load carrying ability of the tire...
Have to wonder if the person writing this has informed the US Tire & Rim Association and the equivalent organization in Asia JATMA or in Europe ETRTO or the US DOT that all their references to Load and inflation tables is wrong. I would really enjoy having a discussion with that person.

Whereas the replacement tires exceeded the manufacturers minimum specs for both weight distribution and speed capabilities and the rims were capable of sustaining the air pressure increase - if we had an accident - we would be covered. The eurometric tires are used overseas for trailer towing and commercial applications. They are different than LT truck tires.

For the 2009 Sundance - heavier trailer
No LT tire would match the weight classification in the 225/R75/15 tire size. Close but with the loaded amount - just short.

so we had to settle for ST's.
We tow with a TST monitoring system and watch the readouts as part of my cursory checks while driving.

I've seen no appreciatable increase in tire temp if hauling at 110 kms an hour vs the 104 (65mph). Weight is distrubuted as even as possible.

Insurance claims are one of 3 things you can't cheat on and they will always get the better of you in their favor.

The other 2 are Death and Taxes.

i guess as far as my family is concerned if the tires i am replacing with are a better standard originally used, (and that includes the side wall configuration as well as load capacity and speed rating) then it makes sense.

To merely switch from an ST tire to an LT tire because I can get more speed out of it but loose the sidewall durability - I'll choose my tire wisely for my families sake and the sake of safety to others on the road.

I'm still suprized that some manufacturers are legally permitted to use bias ply tires.
Have to wonder what excuse the person giving this incorrect and un-scientific information would use for a denial for insurance coverage on any ST tire with a belt separation. After all belt separation does not involve road hazard only tire design and tire operating conditions and since they are claiming ST tires meet some special secrete performance criteria, they must have data to support and justify their position.
Maybe you should let the person that made the claims know that you will use their statements as justification for any claim for coverage of any ST tire failure that cannot be proven to involve puncture or road hazard.

Watch em tap dance around that one.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:24 PM   #176
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I'm not a tire SME but I've been urged to be aware that the rims on my 5th wheel may or may not be capable of handling the increased pressure of a different tire as to what you are referring to.

last thing i would want is my rim splitting on one or all 4 rims driving down the I-95.

increasing pressure in the tire apparently by all literature does not increase load carrying ability of the tire itself.
Did you mis-state? and intent to say

increasing pressure in the tire apparently by all literature does not increase load carrying ability of the wheel itself.

Your wheel may have a max load capacity number stamped on it. I would contact the wheel company concerning wheel load & inflation capacity which is separate from tire load, inflation and speed capacity.
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:09 PM   #177
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Although it is an across the board fact, Goodyear is the only ST tire manufacturer to take advantage of this procedure outlined in the reference below.

Without vehicle manufacturer approval I doubt it would be valid.

Another thing to note in the PDF is the GY implied approval for using LT tires as replacements as long as they meet the load requirement of the tires they are replacing.

ON Edit: After worrying a bit about what I said above I went and looked at the GY LT tire warranty. There are two disturbing statements that would disallow the use of LT tires to replace original equipment ST tires. One is their statement about what is a comparable tire and the other is their statement about misapplications. Here is a copy of the warranty, you can be the judge.

https://www.goodyear.com/images/PDF/...03.01.2014.pdf

http://www.casitaclub.com/forums/ind...ttach_id=21712
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Old 10-30-2015, 04:20 PM   #178
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My camper came with the Goodyear tires, it was a option. Some camper's still come with the Goodyear tires as a option, not Cedar Creek, not now


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Old 11-02-2015, 12:11 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
Have to wonder what excuse the person giving this incorrect and un-scientific information would use for a denial for insurance coverage on any ST tire with a belt separation. After all belt separation does not involve road hazard only tire design and tire operating conditions and since they are claiming ST tires meet some special secrete performance criteria, they must have data to support and justify their position.
Maybe you should let the person that made the claims know that you will use their statements as justification for any claim for coverage of any ST tire failure that cannot be proven to involve puncture or road hazard.

Watch em tap dance around that one.

I merely referred to what my underwriter reflected upon. There is no question here about what excuses the insurance business does or does not do to avoid liabilities.
Similarly one cannot have a vehicle re-certified for carrying extra weight in a trailer by adding a heavier suspension, air bags or extra leaf springs and changing P rated tires to LT tires.

"increasing pressure in the tire apparently by all literature does not increase load carrying ability of the wheel itself.

Your wheel may have a max load capacity number stamped on it. I would contact the wheel company concerning wheel load & inflation capacity which is separate from tire load, inflation and speed capacity"


I'm pretty sure i said tire but it should have perhaps read tire and wheel assembly.

"Special Trailer (ST) Tire Speed Ratings

Industry standards dictate tires with the ST designation are speed rated to 65 MPH (104 km/h) under normal inflation and load conditions.
However Goodyear Marathon and Power King Towmax STR tires featuring the ST size designation may be used at speeds between 66 and 75 mph (106 and 121 km/h) by increasing their cold inflation pressure by 10 psi (69 kPa) above the recommended pressure for the rated maximum load.

Do not exceed the wheel's maximum rated pressure. If the maximum pressure for the wheel prohibits the increase of air pressure, then maximum speed must be restricted to 65 mph (104 km/h).

The cold inflation pressure must not exceed 10 psi (69 kPa) beyond the inflation specified for the maximum load of the tire.

Increasing the inflation pressure by 10 psi (69 kPa) does not provide any additional load carrying capacity."

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...jsp?techid=219
one of several sites offering the same information as my agent passed along.

For me this means making the tire stiffer with air will not permit overloading of the max limit of the tire which apparenlty is limited to what the tire is mounted to for air pressure....

for instance i would think that if we had 110 psi max tires and my rims were limited to 80 - we would have to fill those tires carrying the 110 psi max to a max of 80 psi or risk the rim failing.

Would i be correct?


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Old 11-02-2015, 02:38 PM   #180
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For instance I would think that if we had 110 psi max tires and my rims were limited to 80 - we would have to fill those tires carrying the 110 psi max to a max of 80 psi or risk the rim failing.


Would i be correct?


If the rim manufacturer has taken the time to mark the rim with a maximum psi rating of 80 psi - they are not required by regulations to do that - I would not exceed that with a tire's cold inflation pressure.

On the other hand, if the rim is marked with a maximum load capacity and no psi rating, any psi needed to get your tires to the rim's maximum load capacity would be acceptable.
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