Tire balancing

[bakken]

Originally Posted by prof_fate

I got new TT tires here and shopped around the word is - nobody balances TT tires.

Well "the word" around here is that most people do balance their TT tires, and those who haven't wished they did.
We bead-balanced ours, inexpensive, effective, and good for the life of the tire.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by Tiggerdad

One would think so but that is not always the case. Lugcentric is the way they should be done. Cheap rims and tires are not built to the same specs. as auto and truck tires and rims and are.

Perhaps you need to read the specs on the 06Series alum wheels normally used on FR products.

Quality Control - HiSpec Wheel & Tire, Inc. - The Safety Wheel

"Cheap rims and tires are not built to the same specs. as auto and truck tires and rims and are."
And the objective evidence of the above quote can be found where?

[bakken]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Perhaps you need to read the specs on the 06Series alum wheels normally used on FR product.

X2

[maggiek]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Perhaps you need to read the specs on the 06Series alum wheels normally used on FR products.

Quality Control - HiSpec Wheel & Tire, Inc. - The Safety Wheel

Yes sir. Those are the ones I've got and they sure seem to be well made. Even the folks at the tire place where they were balanced commented at the quality. After looking at the wheel ass'y again, it seems that the rim and tire are indexed, meaning the red dot on the tires is aligned with the valve stem. I believe that is what some are talking about. Could the fact that the tires have about 3000 miles on them in the unbalanced state influence the amount of weight required the bring them into spec? Just thinking out loud and trying to justify the weight required to get the tires balanced. It just seems to be a lot considering they are built for "fair weather" use, not like they are heavy snow or all terrain tires.

[Tiggerdad]

Not trying to start an argument or debate but I have the HiSpec 06 series of rims and have had good success and am pleased with them and the BG Goodrich tires that are on them. They are Chinese made and require more weights than any American made rim I have ever had. This is even after I had the tire turned several times to reduce the required weights. When I insisted on lug centered balancing, the weights were considerably less. I got exactly what I expected for a $100 rim and am satisfied with that.

I am interested in whether the tires were cone centered or lug centered when balanced.

[youroo]

Originally Posted by Tiggerdad

Not trying to start an argument or debate but I have the HiSpec 06 series of rims and have had good success and am pleased with them and the BG Goodrich tires that are on them. They are Chinese made and require more weights than any American made rim I have ever had. This is even after I had the tire turned several times to reduce the required weights. When I insisted on lug centered balancing, the weights were considerably less. I got exactly what I expected for a $100 rim and am satisfied with that.

I am interested in whether the tires were cone centered or lug centered when balanced.

So you have had the (Rim-Wheel) balanced without the (Tire) and you know the rim is the problem? That is why you kept indexing the (Tire)? Seems strange to fault the (Rim-Wheel). Youroo!!

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by youroo

So you have had the (Rim-Wheel) balanced without the (Tire) and you know the rim is the problem? That is why you kept indexing the (Tire)? Seems strange to fault the (Rim-Wheel). Youroo!!

X2, I think I smell some smoke being generated.

Besides, a CNC machine would detect an out of balance condition on a forged wheel.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by amxpress

Were they using a cone on the inside of the rim to center it on the balancer ? If so, ask them to use the adapter that mounts on the outside and centers the rim using the stud holes.
If it spins, rotates or rolls at 65 mph, balance it.

This is the absolute best answer.
Most shops do not know they need to do this.

[Misterdanderson]

FWIW Not all wheels are built the same. Some are out of round just like tires. If you can index heavy spot on tire and oppose that to the "heavy" spot on the rim then that can cancel a lot of weight naturally. Finger mount balancing in lug holes is the most accurate balance (especially done with a road force balancer) but that can be expensive (we charged $20 per tire on new installs for road force at the shop I helped manage.

An often overlooked install procedure by most tire technicians on new installs (because it is a time consuming and nobody much cares..or knows it should be done for that matter... if it is done is to air the assembly up then deflate it and then air again. This allows the bead to seat, then the deflate allows it to "even out" when relaxed, then re-inflate. If balance machine is calling for a lot of weight then The first thing I would do is deflate and re-inflate, especially on a new TT bc I doubt highly they did that on factory install.

Another consideration is machine calibration. It takes about 5 minutes to recalibrate each machine and should be done daily at a busy shop or any time the machine is bumped. Often my techs wanted to skip that and just turn on the machine. If you are having balance issues and nothing else seems to work, then ask them when they recall rated machine last. It may be a machine issue and not a tire or wheel issue.

[OldCoot]

Don't disagree with either the finger or cone balancing, I'm just saying that after spending 45+ yrs in manufacturing, the chances of an alum forged wheel machined on a CNC machine would not be 4 or 5 oz out of balance without it shaking the machine and being rejected. By the very nature of a forging, it is extremely unlikely to produce such a defect. Also, if the wheel is machined on a CNC, it is just about impossible to produce an out of round or wobbling wheel.

[Misterdanderson]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Don't disagree with either the finger or cone balancing, I'm just saying that after spending 45+ yrs in manufacturing, the chances of an alum forged wheel machined on a CNC machine would not be 4 or 5 oz out of balance without it shaking the machine and being rejected. By the very nature of a forging, it is extremely unlikely to produce such a defect. Also, if the wheel is machined on a CNC, it is just about impossible to produce an out of round or wobbling wheel.

In America, I agree. Chinese (and other countries) stuff coming to our store sometimes not up to same quality standards as one would hope for. Ideally forging and CNC exact, but in the service bay that wasn't always our experience.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by maggiek

Could the fact that the tires have about 3000 miles on them in the unbalanced state influence the amount of weight required the bring them into spec? Just thinking out loud and trying to justify the weight required to get the tires balanced. It just seems to be a lot considering they are built for "fair weather" use, not like they are heavy snow or all terrain tires.

Well there is another variable to consider.

[maggiek]

Further to my post of yesterday. I did the bearings on the other side today, again without to much heart ache. The discussion is centered on the tire balancing. So, for the right side tires the additional weight required was. 5 oz and 2.5 oz. The machine was the same one as yesterday as was the tech. The method was with the cone mount. So for some thoughts:
1. The tt is a Rockwood Mini Lite 2304.
2. With the floor plan most of the weight is on the left side. That is stove, fridge, furnace and water heater. The right side has the shower and dinette.
3. When checking the tires/hub temps during our travels I've noticed about a 20F temp differential between the left/right sides. The left side hotter. The brakes seem to be adjusted about the same using the dirt road method for comparing the stopping effort of the tires on each side. The little piles of gravel were about the same and the skid marks were also about the same. So one could discount one set of brakes being "tighter" than the other.
So, I'm thinking the extra weight on the left side could, over time, along with the tires not being balanced from new, cause some deformity/wear pattern that is causing the excessive weight required to bring the tires into balance. Anyway, I'll know on Fri after the tt goes for its spring service. I'll let y'all know how it feels.

[amxpress]

Trailer axles are stud centric, as they center the rim using the studs. That's how the rim should be balanced; by using the fingers mounted on the outside during balancing.
As for the quality of aluminum rims, I found the post on the aluminum rims used on my Columbus and other FR products to be impressive. That being said, they still need to be balanced using the fingers.
The point of having a properly calibrated machine is important as I often find that to be a problem.
And finally, the skill of the balancer operator is very important.
I do this stuff for a living and in my 30+ years of experience have seen all these to be potential problems when balancing a tire/rim assembly.
1) crappy tires
2) cheap quality rims
3) improper mounting on the balancer
4) not having a calibrated balancer
5) a mechanic that isn't properly trained on balancing a tire.
As I've already said, have the tires balanced on a Hunter 9700 by a qualified mechanic.
I've hooked up an NVH analyzer inside a TT before and after a balancing the tires. There was 20+ Dbg less after balancing the tires, a BIG improvement in the ride quality inside the TT.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by amxpress

Trailer axles are stud centric, as they center the rim using the studs. That's how the rim should be balanced; by using the fingers mounted on the outside during balancing.
As for the quality of aluminum rims, I found the post on the aluminum rims used on my Columbus and other FR products to be impressive. That being said, they still need to be balanced using the fingers.
The point of having a properly calibrated machine is important as I often find that to be a problem.
And finally, the skill of the balancer operator is very important.
I do this stuff for a living and in my 30+ years of experience have seen all these to be potential problems when balancing a tire/rim assembly.
1) crappy tires
2) cheap quality rims
3) improper mounting on the balancer
4) not having a calibrated balancer
5) a mechanic that isn't properly trained on balancing a tire.
As I've already said, have the tires balanced on a Hunter 9700 by a qualified mechanic.
I've hooked up an NVH analyzer inside a TT before and after a balancing the tires. There was 20+ Dbg less after balancing the tires, a BIG improvement in the ride quality inside the TT.

You forgot a major potential problem is an improperly seated tire.

In my 40+ yrs of pulling rv trailers and having the tires balanced using a cone, I've never had cupped tires from them being out of balance. I watch them spinning them and pay particular attention to any runout also. To me, the best way of balancing was the old spinning them on the vehicle, but you had to know what you were doing and it took a lot of experience to balance them that way.

[prof_fate]

Originally Posted by BarryD0706

No passengers? Ok, but there is a lot of dishes and electronics that I don't want vibrated all to H!!

All of the smart people on this forum get theirs balanced. ;-)

OK...but those IN THE INDUSTRY - be that TT makers, sellers, tire sellers DO NOT.

So do you see an MD when your sick or get out the crystals because everyone on 'the crystal healing website' uses crystals?

[PHS79]

Originally Posted by prof_fate

OK...but those IN THE INDUSTRY - be that TT makers, sellers, tire sellers DO NOT.

So do you see an MD when your sick or get out the crystals because everyone on 'the crystal healing website' uses crystals?

The tire shop I worked for 10 ago balanced every tire that went out the door, including trailer tires. My parents 2013 Open Range 5er came from the factory with the tires balanced. And even the tilt bed equipment trailer my boss just bought last week is hanging weights in the rims, whether it was the dealer or the factory that balanced them I don't know but they are balanced. I should also add that they are LT tires and not ST tires.

I think at this point everyone has their own opinion on the subject and it kinda like beating a dead horse...

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by prof_fate

OK...but those IN THE INDUSTRY - be that TT makers, sellers, tire sellers DO NOT.

So do you see an MD when your sick or get out the crystals because everyone on 'the crystal healing website' uses crystals?

Interesting that you picked a medical example. If you are diagnosed with an illness the first thing they say is "Get a second opinion."

Why? because experts do not agree on anything. MY doctor says to get them balanced, so I will (and do).

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by herk7769

...MY doctor says to get them balanced, so I will (and do).

X2, only took me one set of unbalanced tires to re-confirm what I already knew, BALANCE ALL TIRES that go on the highways, etc.

[melk-man]

Originally Posted by prof_fate

OK...but those IN THE INDUSTRY - be that TT makers, sellers, tire sellers DO NOT.

So do you see an MD when your sick or get out the crystals because everyone on 'the crystal healing website' uses crystals?

and Forest River also made the xlr27hfs Hyper Lite with 3500lb axles.. the are in the industry, the seller, etc.. that did not make it RIGHT that a 27xlr should come with 3500lb axles. And in fact the started putting 4400lb axles on later.
Your comparison is kinda weak prof_fate.. No offense.