Tire Information

[rockwood06]

Here is a link about tires. There was a discussion about Nitrogen filled tires a while a go and a member of the forum wanted to know where I got the info to back up my statement, well here it is. Once you pull up the link go to the left and click on "Nitrogen"
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/trailerchart.htm

[aintgotnun]

and to backup a few pages on that site http://www.innovativebalancing.com/Nitrogen.htm

while I believe that nitrogen has its bennies I do not know that in my personal situation taht the cost justifies the bennies. but again that's just me


good reading though,

thanks,

greg

[MtnGuy]

OK, so compressed air is 80% Nitrogen, and the article says that after an airfill you will have 95% Nitrogen with 5% Oxygen. I am just not sold on the extra expense of an N2 fill.....which by the way, how much does it cost??

Wheel rust: When I last put tires on my 79 F150 (before I sold it), it was very little rust on the inner part of the steel wheel.....and just surface rust at that. And that was after 25 years or so of use.

Air Loss: I gotta compressor in my garage, and an TPMS on my camper tires.

Tire Deterioration: Seems like most of the blowouts I read about concerning trailer tires are from tread seperation, which happens near the outside of a tire. Of course that is subject to the 20% oxygen of the atmosphere.

Heat buildup: The pressure on my tires will increase from 50 lbs. to ~57 lbs. on a sunny hot day, traveling @ 65 mph. I can't see where this would be a problem, as manufacturers give a cold inflation figure, knowing that the pressure will be more as the tires heat up.

Has anyone on the forum run an experiment with just 1 tire on their camper filled with 95% N2, and then see if there is any major diffence at highway speed? I might do this, just to see what happens, because of right now I am just not sold on this idea.

[turbopuppy]

Good day!

I don't post often unless I have a real need to correct bad information- now is certainly a time I am compelled to set straight some erroneous internet information. The link above will take you to a corporate web site that will sell you a product. Nitrogen is a beneficial gas but there are significant mis-statements on the webpage.

First, I am not flaming anyone, any product, or any company. I am attempting to correct errors in my area of expertise only. I actually use nitrogen when available.

Fact: Air is a mixture of mostly Nitrogen. About 79%. Oxygen accounts for about 21%. There is a trace of other gases. There is moisture in the mixture. Both Oxygen (O2) and Nitrogen (N2) are diatomic. That is, they exist in your tires as a molecule of 2 atoms of N or 2 atoms of O. As you compress air, all the components increase in concentration proportionally. All that means is there is always 79% N2 and 21% O2 and some moisture. Compressing moist air will condense the water vapor and you will get water in the tire. Thats the best and frankly, only reason to invest in this system for home, personal use. I have a water separating filter on my compressor at home. It cost me $40.

So for fleets, there is a significant advantage for the capital outlay. For me and you? At any rate, here are the falsehoods:

Nitrogen is smaller than oxygen, sitting to the left of oxygen on the periodic table of elements. Permeable material, like...tires, are permeable to all gasses. The leakage is at the Rim-Tire joint, the valve hole, the valve, and through the rubber at a virtually unmeasurable rate. But yes, rubber is permeable. BUT nitrogen will permeate faster by virtue of being a smaller molecule. As nitrogen moves through the rubber it reacts with the rubber. The reaction is pretty much the opposite of the damaging effect of the oxygen reaction. Nitrogen changes the organic rubber molecule into a pliable waxy nice material. Oxygen dries is out, not really changing anything, but cracks develop. Its not like the wind blowing through the screen on an open window. Rubber absorbs gas on one wall, and respires the gas to the atmosphere on the outside after millions of tiny reactions.

Oxygen is not corrosive. In this system (the Tire), Water is the reactant. Water corrodes the rims and attacks the materials in the presence of oxygen. The website was correct stating Nitrogen is far less reactant. But reactant never the less. Especially on alloys containing copper. Lower concentrations of Oxygen correlates with less corrosion. Air quality is your best friend. Make your air dry.

Copper? Good qustion. Do you have all rubber or all Stainless valve stems? Not unless you installed them yourself. Nearly all valve stems are rubber coated brass- a copper alloy. Recall rubber is permeable. There's why you should replace valve stems during the tires life.

A recent article from the Wall Street Journal states:

“One thing government and tire-industry officials agree on is the
importance of keeping tires properly inflated. The risks of
underinflation, which stresses tires by causing their sidewalls to flex more and the air temperature inside to rise, were highlighted during congressional hearings two years ago into the Firestone tire problems. Underinflation was identified as a factor in the failure of Firestone tires.”
Wall Street Journal, September 25, 2002

I actually remember reading that article years ago. Funny thing is it was about using nitrogen to fill tires. I recall the paragraph right before this one questioned the cost for a consumer to switch to nitrogen. While agreeing nitrogen is beneficial, the cost savings where optimal when the consumer maintained proper inflation whether using nitrogen systems or air. I resent the website claiming the nitrogen is the reason your tread lasts longer, tires wear evenly, and temperature run lower. Those are attributes of proper inflation and driving habits.

On one funny note, I hope no one reading this is pulling a trailer fast enough to ignite them.

[LadyWindrider]

There is one very correct statement from Turbopuppy, "MAKE YOUR AIR DRY". I have been in shops where the air hose would blow a fine mist of water. All compressors need a GOOD FILTER/DRYER on them. The air is heated by compression, and when it cools in the tank, the water vapor condenses. ONLY fill your tires where there is a good filter on the compressor system. Nitrogen eliminates the water problem as the nitrogen is extracted first, and the compressed. I personally don't think nitrogen is worth the expense. Tires should be replaced every 5 years regardless of tread depth. My 2 cents.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by turbopuppy

Good day!

I don't post often unless I have a real need to correct bad information- now is certainly a time I am compelled to set straight some erroneous internet information. The link above will take you to a corporate web site that will sell you a product. Nitrogen is a beneficial gas but there are significant mis-statements on the webpage.

First, I am not flaming anyone, any product, or any company. I am attempting to correct errors in my area of expertise only. I actually use nitrogen when available.

Turbopuppy, we need to hear a lot more from you when our discussions are heading down questionable paths. I see you are chemist by trade, so your expertise should help all of us when the need for direction arises.

Can I ask why do you use nitrogen when available?? Is that because it is usually drier ?

[aintgotnun]

Originally Posted by turbopuppy

On one funny note, I hope no one reading this is pulling a trailer fast enough to ignite them.

not me

[turbopuppy]

Originally Posted by mtnguy

Can I ask why do you use nitrogen when available?? Is that because it is usually drier ?

First time I saw it was at Costco ten years ago. I thought it would be drier because the gas is bottled hi purity nitrogen. Nitrogen generators require dissicant or refridgerated air. I thought it was cool because they send you home with green valve caps. But yeah, Dry. Only time I got N2 was when they balanced and rotated my tires.

If people really want to get into nitrogen, you just need a basic set up. Nitrogen regulator (Ebay $50) and a tank of nitrogen (more than $50). I have seen regulators that come with a hose and chuck. But it's all standard NPT fittings you can use your regular air compressor fittings with. Bottles come from welder supply stores and should last a long time if you remember to close the tank valve after use. It's safe and easy. There are small bottles like overgrown fire extinguishers, large bottles like on a welders rack, and really big tanks that weigh over 500 pounds containing liquid nitrogen. Thats the best deal there. Dewars (pronounced DOO-ers) internally generate gas from the liquid state and should last years. Tanks can be purchased or leased. Tanks aren't usually refilled- they're exchanged for full ones. Get an account with a supplier and they pick up empty ones dropping off full tanks. Paint ball shooters also have nitrogen bottles that someone may experiment with.

Only caution (Danger): small enclosed spaces. These bottles have safety valves. If you are in a car or elevator and a bottle vents, it displaces your breathing air and may make your ears ring (because its loud). You will asphyxiate (drown) as your air is replaced with nitrogen. It may be nontoxic but you cant breath it any more than a fish out of water.

But again, I have an air compressor with a filter - works for me.

[rockwood06]

Sorry that this has created an issue but I am glad it cleared some things up from the link. Just trying to pass on alternative ways of doing things. The link has other selections as well to look over for info. The only reason I pointed out the nitrogen issue is because well in the past a member posted about tires getting hot and I had read where nitrogen helps keep the tires cooler, so I posted that info, well the member came back and ask "where did you get your info to back up your statement" Maybe it was the way the reply was put, it made me think that the member thought I had pulled this info out of the air. I never replied back, I was a little twisted over it and did not want to start any problems. Now that the subject is back this where I got the info to back my statement for the record. As far as nitrogen go's for other applications, I use it to pressurize A/C systems for leak checks after a repair. Well like I said I am sorry for a misleading link, I am not one to give bad info knowingly and I do fell bad about it. If a FRF Administrator wanted to delete this thread it would not hurt my fellings, thanks for the correction.....

[NWJeeper]

My mother in law came to me a couple of years ago after having just filled her tires with nitrogen and handed me the brochure on it. I looked through it and they touted the facts that Nascar uses it, and Nasa uses it on the space shuttle. I handed the brochure back and told her that since I don't run my motorhome at Daytona at 220mph and I very rarely experience the vacuum of space or the harsh realities of re-entry in to the earths atmosphere that this seemed to me to be a real slick marketing job to those that are easily parted from their money. Put me in the crowd who uses good clean dry compressed air and have for many many years without any issues.

Turbopuppy: Thanks for the very well worded and informative advice and information. I like to see facts not sales brochures from those that stand to make a lot of money.....

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by rockwood06

Sorry that this has created an issue but I am glad it cleared some things up from the link. Just trying to pass on alternative ways of doing things. The link has other selections as well to look over for info. The only reason I pointed out the nitrogen issue is because well in the past a member posted about tires getting hot and I had read where nitrogen helps keep the tires cooler, so I posted that info, well the member came back and ask "where did you get your info to back up your statement" Maybe it was the way the reply was put, it made me think that the member thought I had pulled this info out of the air. I never replied back, I was a little twisted over it and did not want to start any problems. Now that the subject is back this where I got the info to back my statement for the record. As far as nitrogen go's for other applications, I use it to pressurize A/C systems for leak checks after a repair. Well like I said I am sorry for a misleading link, I am not one to give bad info knowingly and I do fell bad about it. If a FRF Administrator wanted to delete this thread it would not hurt my fellings, thanks for the correction.....

Rockwood06, this thread has not created an issue.....it has created a constructive discussion. We should thank you for that. I have been hearing about the N2 fills, as a number of local car dealers offer and toot is as the best thing since rubber tires. I wasn't sold on thier advertisements, and am still not convinced about the advantages of N2 after reading the infomation here on the thread, and the links provided.

By what I have been reading, the main advantages of an N2 tire is drier air, and maybe cooler running tires that stay inflated better. So, if you check your inflation regularly (as I do), and rust is not a problem with your wheels, then regular ol' breathing air should be fine without all of the expensive ($10 per fill"??) of N2 fills.

As far as cooler running tire....is that really an advantage??? As stated in 1 of my above posts, the pressure on my tires will go from a cold inflated 50 lbs. to 57 lbs./sq.in running at 65 mpg on a sunny, hot day (~35 degree increase??). So if the N2 filled tires just increase to 55 lbs. or so (~25 degrees or so??), is that extra 10 degrees gonna really affect the tires?? And with the extra pressure, shouldn't I get less rolling resistance with air instead of N2.....at least in theory??

Maybe I have had way to much coffee this morning.

[cfsoistman]

Wade, I have to agree with mthguy. You've done a great service to all of us by getting this topic out for discussion. We've received honest opinions and expert knowledge and statistics of this topic. If everyone only paid attention to advertised info from sales reps and distributors we'd all need to start planting quarters and hope dollar trees grow. Thanks again.

[rockwood06]

Believe it or not it makes me fell better to get a positive reply on this subject and I appreciate the professonals in the field to help keep us all in line. There seens to be pro and cons, positive and negitives to most issues. When one reads a link on a topic, one would think that the person that puts it out would have done there home work completely, and by that I mean list the pros and cons. Things like rust... in my mine that is long term effect and so, if you have aluminum wheels how are they effected...most likely not at all. Again thanks....Wade.

[turbopuppy]

Rockwood: my intention was to clarify the misleading statements at http://www.innovativebalancing.com/trailerchart.htm. You are OK. OOPS>(
In addition, the person "complaining" of tires getting hot was not being realistic. All tires are engineered to heat, expand, flex and release heat. They are temperature rated - everyone please study up at http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTreadwear.dos

This is trivial but all gas behaves the same when heated - it expands. You might think that one gas expands more than another - but they don't. At a given temperature, a gas takes up the same volume as any other gas. The point being you are doing right by your tires to properly inflate them regardless of gas.

I lived in southern New Mexico long enough to know that I was safe going 75 mph on a nice 110 degree day on I-25 with a surface temperature of 150. Would you go slower? It's 220 miles between Las Cruces and Albuquerque!

MTNGUY: Is the MAX tire pressure 50 psi?. My point is after going 65 on a hot day we need to look at the pressures and bleed the air back into the design limits. My tires carry a max load of 1750 lbs at 50 psi max. That means don't go over 50 psi. Hot or cold.

My owners manual on my truck says to allow 10% expansion for hot tire pressure. So for a hot tire that I want to inflate to 40 psi, I would fill a hot tire to 44 psi. My truck tires are good to 80 PSI max.

I just checked the facts and I was wrong. N2 molecules are about 3% larger than O2 molecules. Sorry. Fly-poop in the pepper has been removed.

[Bama Rambler]

Oops! I didn't read your last post where you corrected the size.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by turbopuppy

MTNGUY: Is the MAX tire pressure 50 psi?. My point is after going 65 on a hot day we need to look at the pressures and bleed the air back into the design limits. My tires carry a max load of 1750 lbs at 50 psi max. That means don't go over 50 psi. Hot or cold.

turbopuppy, the maximum cold inflation pressure on my ST tires are listed at 50 lbs. psi. It has always been my impression that the tires should be inflated to this pressure before the tires heat up due to travel. So hopefully the design of the tire leads to the 57 lb psi I get during a hot day of traveling.

This was copied from the Goodyear website: "Tire pressure should be checked cold, or before you have driven that day, as tire pressure ratings have been designed with typical running heat/pressure build-up in mind."
Check out: http://www.goodyear.com/rv/tirecare/...iontables.html

Another bit of interesting information is included in this pdf file from Goodyear: http://www.goodyear.com/rv/pdf/marat...nfo_032806.pdf

According to information included in that file, (with max. wheel pressure limitations), you can increase the maximum rated speed of 65 mph to 75 mph by inflating your Marathons 10 lbs. psi over the maximum cold rated psi.....which I have no plans on doing, BTW. Interesting though, ain't it??

[turbopuppy]

Thank you for the clarification, MTNGUY. Allow me to clarify myself too. It's not worth it to me to exceed the sidewall pressure. Ever. I never load my tires to the max load so I never need max pressure. Everyone's different. I see no benefit but I do see problems. I apologize for my assumptions. Peace.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by turbopuppy

Thank you for the clarification, MTNGUY. Allow me to clarify myself too. It's not worth it to me to exceed the sidewall pressure. Ever. I never load my tires to the max load so I never need max pressure. Everyone's different. I see no benefit but I do see problems. I apologize for my assumptions. Peace.

turbopuppy, there is absolutely nothing to apologize for. I had remembered reading some of the Goodyear information previously, and thought I would include it in this excellent thread on tires and pressures. Myself, I can't see overpressurizing a tire by 10 lbs. psi so that people can pull a trailer at 75 mph.....that seems to really go against the max. cold inflation pressure printed on the sidewall.......but I would guess that Goodyear has done the research to justifiy that.

Like you, I do not intend to every load my Surveyor to the maximum weight, and intend to keep the weight below the maximum for the tires. I owned a single axle Trailmanor before my current rig, and there were many instances of tire blowouts reported on the Trailmanor Forum because of the weight being so close to the tire maxs. I even upgraded my 14" wheels and tires to 15" for an extra saftey margin on my Trailmanor. So, like you, I am very safety concious about my tires.