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Old 03-13-2016, 11:14 PM   #1
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A-frame newbie, question on dry camping with A frame

Greetings all,
New to the forum and to RVs in general. Wifey and looked and read and waited and finally decided and signed on a 2016 Flagstaff T19SCHW A frame (shower and toilet were a must for the wifey). I'll make a camper out of her yet, ha ha...

We pick it up later during the week and plan to leave this weekend for our first trip out. No hookups where we are going to put it through its paces. Have a 2800/3000W inverter genny for power. My concern is water. Fresh tank only holds 26 gallons....

I had a thought but I am relying on some of the experience here. What is the feasibility of adding more water to the tank from a second tank? I have 55 gallon drums with hose spigots on the bottom of them that I intend to use for rainwater collection. Assuming I had one full in the back of my Truck, would this hooked up to the water inlet be enough to keep the 26 gallon tank Topped off by gravity alone? What about 5 gallon jugs and a creative adapter?

Thanks in advance!
Jeff
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Old 03-13-2016, 11:37 PM   #2
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I wouldn't tow with the fresh water tank full. That's a lot of weight behind the axle. I would be concerned of excessive sway. How long is your trip for?
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Old 03-13-2016, 11:52 PM   #3
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3 days 2 nights. I'm totally sure we would get by if we used sparingly. Just like the idea of having a little "extra" if you know what I mean.

Think that 26 gallons of water would make that much of a difference during towing? Its only like 216 pounds?

Jeff
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Old 03-14-2016, 01:09 AM   #4
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I towed an A frame to Alaska and back from Colorado with no problem with the tank full.
Me thinks your water tank is only 20 gal. Maybe you are counting the hot water tank.
I do not have a shower that we use, so don't know how much water you need. We carry two 3 gal jugs, for back up if the 20 gal tank goes dry. We also carry a case of drinking water bottles. We do disk washing with less then 1 gal of water. We only wash dishes once a day. Even with no hookup they normally have some place to get water.
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Old 03-14-2016, 05:42 AM   #5
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we've been dry camping for years.

we always tow with a full FW tank, cause it doesn't make much of an impact.
UNLESS you have a marginal tow vehicle.

we also have a 6 gallon FW jug and a 15 gallon blue tote tank for the gray water.
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Old 03-14-2016, 09:04 AM   #6
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Just a note on the water tank location... My 2014 Rockwood's water tank is in front of the axle, so double check that. They seem to have moved them from time to time.

Mine pulls a bit better with that extra weight in the front. Just watch the tongue weight if you have a smaller SUV like me. I usually don't fill it completely because it's just me out there when boondocking.
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Old 03-14-2016, 09:31 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by DesertSchnzrs View Post
Greetings all,
New to the forum and to RVs in general. Wifey and looked and read and waited and finally decided and signed on a 2016 Flagstaff T19SCHW A frame (shower and toilet were a must for the wifey). I'll make a camper out of her yet, ha ha...

We pick it up later during the week and plan to leave this weekend for our first trip out. No hookups where we are going to put it through its paces. Have a 2800/3000W inverter genny for power. My concern is water. Fresh tank only holds 26 gallons....
According to the specs/floor plan I pulled up, this is a high wall unit with dormer. It has the larger TT style fridge, stove with oven, inside shower with cassette potty. 20 gal fresh water tank plus 6 gal hot water heater. Does not say what size of gray water tank you have. Don't believe there is a black water tank due to cassette potty.

Generally, stock RVs run out of battery first. A-frames and PUPs do not come standard with battery shut-off switches, so the stock batteries are often trashed within the 1st year by parasitic loads when the camper is parked (or sitting on display on the dealer lot). High wall A-frames have higher parasitic loads due to the bigger TT-style fridge - especially if there is a condensation-eliminating heat strip on.

You talk about taking a generator for power. Will you be able to (or even want) to run the generator continuously? The condition of your battery and your electrical usage will determine how much you will need the generator.

Second point: there's a reasonable chance you won't stay the second night because enough things don't work or you can't get them to work the way they are supposed to. I hope this isn't true, but I'm warning you in advance. Our first trip (3 days, 2 nights) was cut short the 2nd day by a propane leak at a faulty fitting where the hose joined the propane piping. And the stock mattresses were really uncomfortable (cured by adding mattress toppers).

Water usage is going to be driven by the shower. Without the shower, 3 gals per day per person is easily achievable - and you can manage on half of that with a little care. Sea showers (wet yourself, turn off, lather up, turn on to rinse) are the only way to have hot water at the finish of the shower - and it minimizes water use. Gray water tank capacity may also be a limit on both water and shower use.

Our first mods (and really the only things we needed) to make our A-frame comfortable for a long weekend (4 nights) with no hook-ups were a dual battery install and the mattress toppers. We do love our A-frame after tent and PUP camping previously.

Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan with E2 Equalizer WDH/anti-sway
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time -
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Old 03-14-2016, 11:24 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by pgandw View Post
According to the specs/floor plan I pulled up, this is a high wall unit with dormer. It has the larger TT style fridge, stove with oven, inside shower with cassette potty. 20 gal fresh water tank plus 6 gal hot water heater. Does not say what size of gray water tank you have. Don't believe there is a black water tank due to cassette potty.

Generally, stock RVs run out of battery first. A-frames and PUPs do not come standard with battery shut-off switches, so the stock batteries are often trashed within the 1st year by parasitic loads when the camper is parked (or sitting on display on the dealer lot). High wall A-frames have higher parasitic loads due to the bigger TT-style fridge - especially if there is a condensation-eliminating heat strip on.

You talk about taking a generator for power. Will you be able to (or even want) to run the generator continuously? The condition of your battery and your electrical usage will determine how much you will need the generator.

Second point: there's a reasonable chance you won't stay the second night because enough things don't work or you can't get them to work the way they are supposed to. I hope this isn't true, but I'm warning you in advance. Our first trip (3 days, 2 nights) was cut short the 2nd day by a propane leak at a faulty fitting where the hose joined the propane piping. And the stock mattresses were really uncomfortable (cured by adding mattress toppers).

Water usage is going to be driven by the shower. Without the shower, 3 gals per day per person is easily achievable - and you can manage on half of that with a little care. Sea showers (wet yourself, turn off, lather up, turn on to rinse) are the only way to have hot water at the finish of the shower - and it minimizes water use. Gray water tank capacity may also be a limit on both water and shower use.

Our first mods (and really the only things we needed) to make our A-frame comfortable for a long weekend (4 nights) with no hook-ups were a dual battery install and the mattress toppers. We do love our A-frame after tent and PUP camping previously.

Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan with E2 Equalizer WDH/anti-sway
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time -
Fred
Thanks for the lengthy repsonse, lot to consider. This is our first RV so I'm sure it's going to be comical to a certain extent when we get out there. If we have to cut it short because of (Insert disaster here), we are both OK with it. This is more of a dry run so to speak.

As far as the Genny goes I was thinking more along the lines of running it s few hours each day to keep the battery topped off. Only reason I see to run it outside of that is to use AC or microwave? Maybe I'm missing something.

I asked the dealer about a second battery on purchase (I'm familiar with the whole 2 6v batt in series vs 12v batts in parallel argument). Said there is no room on the tounge. I beg to differ and that will be an upgrade soon...I kind of like the idea of a second battery and power inverter to run small electronic devices.

Reference the tank capacities, i Think you are looking at the t21 specs; that has the dormer; no dormer in this model . This has 26 gallon fresh/0 grey (collect or divert)/5 gal black by way of cassette potty. My "understanding" is that in my state there is nothing new unlawful about dumping grey water. Without somehow destroying the environment, I don't see what the difference between showering or doing dishes outside with the attached hose or dumping grey water is anyways.

Jeff
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:21 PM   #9
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My wife and I boondock a lot and we use about eight gallons per day. For extra water we use a 45 gallon collapsible tank with a 12volt pump for transfer.

We usually camp in the southwest where there are a lot of sunny days and we use a 100watt Renology solar panel with two six volt batteries. It provides all the electricity we need. We have led bulbs in our light fixtures. We don't use the microwave. I hate the sound of a generator even if it is my own.

One thing we did to our a frame was add ropes which we could attach so the panels wouldn't overextend when setting up in the wind.
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:28 PM   #10
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I would check under the trailer and see how well the fresh water tank is supported. Some seem to bulge quite a bit when full, only being held up by one strap, and could benefit from some extra support. Would not be hard to put another strap or two across the bottom to add more support if planning to travel while full.

Two batteries are definitely recommended, and should provide all the 12v power you need for a couple of days, and will support an inverter better than one battery. As you point out, you will need a genny to run the microwave or AC. The propane furnace is a big amperage hog (many find only one night/battery if camping in cold weather).

My last recommendation is do not run refrigerator on 12v, unless you are charging at the same time. Better to run on propane when boondocking and even while traveling if your TV is not charging.
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Old 03-14-2016, 04:44 PM   #11
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Jeff


Where does the shower drain to? Having the non-high wall, we have no inside shower, only a single sink, and a smaller continuous-run fridge with no thermostat or DC control board. But we chose smaller to fit in the garage and easily tow behind our minivan in the mountains.


We drain our sink into a 5 gal bucket. We cook, eat, and wash dishes at the picnic table. Basically, the A-frame is a great sleeping space, and a place to lounge only when weather outside is miserable. We use campground toilets and showers, although the camper came with a porta-potty. But that's our camping style; others choose differently.


We had dual batteries installed by the dealer as part of the purchase. He put 2 Type 24 12V batteries in a single box that measures 21.25in long, 7in wide, and 11.75in deep on the inside. The 12V batteries didn't fit that well because of the lift lips on the battery ends overlapped.


The dealer wouldn't put bigger 12V batteries in because a bigger box would not fit between the A-frame box members on the battery mount rails.


My golf cart 6V battery replacements from Costco actually fit the existing box better length-wise. They are just short enough to clear the wood replacement box cover I made - the plastic original cover took off in heavy cross-winds. I did add a battery shut-off.


If you don't have a battery shut-off, disconnect one terminal of the battery completely when you get home so that parasite current draws don't deplete and ruin your battery.


My next mod is to improve the air flow over the fridge condenser coils. I notice the plywood bulkhead under the sink next to the fridge gets pretty warm when the fridge is running for a couple of days. This tells me the air flow over the fridge cooling coils is not what it should be. I bought some Reflectix insulation to guide the air flow to the upper exhaust vent.


Enjoy your trip, and I really hope all goes well.


Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan with Equalizer WDH/anti-sway
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Old 03-14-2016, 08:11 PM   #12
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I put more fresh water in my tank using an Aquatainer. Remove the built in spigot, it leaves behind a standard 3/4 FPT opening. Replace it with a PVC MPT to MHT adapter from your local hardware store. On the adapter use a short piece of hose and a Camco 40003 Water Tank Filler. Lift the Aquatainer above the intake and let it drain.

The filler is good to have anyway just to fill the tank at home.
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Old 03-15-2016, 09:10 AM   #13
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You can hookup a $25 (on eBay) 10 watt solar panel to your battery without a charge controller. It will extend you stay, and the life of your battery. We have a 100 watt panel glued to the roof with a charge control and battery monitor with 2 batteries. We don’t run out of electricity. Change your bulbs to LED off eBay, don’t run microwave or AC, turn off the furnace at night and use sleeping bags at night to stay warm. I can’t sleep through the noise of the furnace coming on, and it comes on many times a night. I turn it on in the morning to warm the trailer. We keep a couple of 5 gallon water jugs in the back of the truck. I set them on a ladder and siphon the water into the RV. They can usually be refilIed if you’re out and about. If you’re not close to a lake or stream, you can run you grey water out on the ground with a hose. Phosphates from soap are a fertilizer, but too much causes problems in streams and lakes. If you’re in a developed campground or next to water, you’ll want a tote to haul it away. I can shower with a couple of gallons of water, but if your wife is washing her hair, that takes a lot more. Four people for four days, and we used about 50 gallons of water.
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:10 AM   #14
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What we've done

Our rig is a 2014 Rockwood A127TH. It has a 23 gallon FW tank located behind the axle. When full, it really looks bulged out on the bottom. As was said above, it doesn't look like it's very well supported. With the toy hauler platform forward, on which I've mounted a standard cross-bed truck tool box (since I had one laying around), we travel with a Honda i2000 Companion inverter gennie in the tool box, a fuel container strapped down outside the box, and we carry up to 4 7 gallon cube-type Reliance Aquatainers, and lastly a 5 gallon diesel fuel container as backup for the truck's 38 gallon onboard capacity. So, we have lots of weight forward to counterbalance the FW tank behind the axle.

We've towed with a full FW tank and I don't care for it. It's noticably heavier, even towing with an F350 diesel. Our trip from NC to Montana and back last summer featured quick overnight stops with no need for onboard water on the way out and back, so all tanks were empty, save for a supermarket 2.5 gallon container just to make coffee and brush teeth. Once we reached Dillon, MT, the last town before our Twin Lakes destination, we filled the FW tank and the cubes at the Rocky Mountain Supply where we also took on diesel, ice, and other necessities for the next 6 days. With the on board tank and the cubes full, we were sporting over 400 lbs of water, and it was definitely noticable.

As far as the gennie went, with high elevation campsites, we had no need for A/C. I don't think I can even run our A/C with the i2000, anyway. We have a standard Group 24 deep cycle and an AGM Group 27 in a box as a backup. I carry a Schumacher charger and the gennie powers it well on Eco setting. Our use of lights is minimal and we were not pumping lots of water via showering every day, so we needed literally a 15-20 minute gennie run every third day to keep the battery fully charged. Never unstrapped and connected the backup AGM.

We topped off the onboard FW tank from the cubes once and only used two of the four, so in the first 6 nights we used < 40 gallons. We made no effort to economize. I like the idea mentioned here of putting the cube on a ladder and letting it gravity flow or siphon. Holding nearly 60 lbs of water at chest height while it pours into a funnel into the onboard tank wasn't the best way to do that.

After 6 days, we started hopscotching around on a long way back to NC, ending up in the Nebraska Sandhills for two nights at a National Forest CG with nice bathhouses/showers. We dumped all of the remaining water before turning southeast on the slab for the 3 day run home.

Unless you're trying to run A/C and pump a lot of water (and remember you need to catch that water/properly drain the holding tanks somewhere) I can't imagine needing to run the gennie a lot to charge the battery. Finding somewhere to fill the FW supply immediately before heading in to the mountains works well, too, so you're not needlessly dragging hundreds of pounds of water cross-country down the highway.

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Old 03-21-2016, 06:55 AM   #15
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Welcome to the forum and to A-frame camping. Over time your family will develop your own style of camping. Camping is not the same for everyone. My wife also demands certain necesities that I seldom think of. The amount of water and acessories for me are determined by what is available at the campsite. If it has water, bathrooms and showers then I am all good, if not then we adapt. We usually fill the fresh water tank before we leave home and I keep it topped off if water is available on site. The trip home, the tank travels empty. We also carry a generator and a solar panel to keep the batteries charged. If the wife wants to use the microwave or the air conditioner it is there. Have fun with your new A-frame!
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Old 03-23-2016, 04:42 PM   #16
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Except in early spring, I run with the 20 gallon tank and 6 gallon hot water heater tank full to the campground with no problems. Even pulling in the mountains.
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Old 03-23-2016, 07:05 PM   #17
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I usually drive with a full fresh water tank and water heater. I do this because its easier to flip the water pump switch than to hook up the hose, for the small amount of water I use. My guess is that with both tanks full, the tongue is slightly heavier than it would be with both empty. I never notice the difference in weight.

This plan didn't work this past weekend when the water pump stopped working and I had to hook up the city water. The toughest part was bling removal of the screws on the back side of the pump. They were put in at an odd angle instead of going through the holes already in the feet. Thankfully I had a #2 square bit on hand and a ratcheting driver. After that was done, the installation of the new pump was easy.
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