Took Delivery, To-Do List is Growing

[pgandw]

Took delivery of our 2019 T21TBHW A-frame 2 weeks ago. We had sold our 2014 A122, and wanted the layout of the TBHW, the high walls, the front storage compartment, and a usable cassette toilet for when the all-too-common in Colorado vault toilets aren't clean enough. Liked the Flagstaff colors and dealer better than the Rockwood colors and dealer.

I took it out last weekend locally as a trial. Our findings so far:

- I have to remove the spare tire, but can leave the mount, to store the camper in the garage. I have yet to figure out a good place to put the spare for traveling without remounting it with the 3 bolts. There isn't enough road clearance to put the tire underneath, especially with the longer overhang of the camper on both sides of the tires. I may end up putting the spare in the minivan, or I may just continue bolting and unbolting at home.

- tongue weight can vary a lot more than with the A122. We installed 2 GC-2 batteries, and this added tongue weight. The water tank is close behind the axle, but carrying a full tank does help reduce tongue weight some. The storage trunk is also an easy way to add tongue weight. I have moved my tool kit to the left rear compartment to help compensate. I will probably try adding a washer to our E2 600/6000 to get a little more weight on the minivan front end. I am also looking to see if I can move the L-brackets back all the way to the 27" point (currently at 24.5").

- The bigger fridge, with a small freezer, is a big step up for us. Unfortunately, it struggled to cool on propane, but does fine on AC. The propane exhaust is really too low so I will try adding an exhaust pipe that directs the exhaust to the vent better. Also, add Reflectix to improve ducting of the hot air to the exhaust vent. Am considering adding computer case fans directly on the exhaust vent grill like I did with the A122. There is already a fan and fairly tight baffle below the cooling coils.

- I saw in another thread moving one of the Cool Cat ducts to face forward. This will involve moving the water pump switch and supporting the duct above the drawer. Without the king bed center filler, and the roof vent opened a little, A/C to the forward end was adequate as is. But I think the center filler in place (we will probably set up as a king at night) will prevent distribution of the cool air.

- the sink is a tremendous improvement. And we like the two burner stove better than the 3 burner. The glass cover is one piece and I don't expect so many problems with the plastic hinge bolts working loose/breaking.

- I am told the CO/propane detector is a different manufacturer due to all the problems with the previous FR unit. In any case, had no issues with the heater, dog, water heater setting it off.

- The WFCO converter will likely need to be replaced. Just like the one in my A122, the converter won't go into trickle charge mode. The camper has been plugged in since Sunday evening, and I'm still getting 13.7V at the batteries. I have already bought a cut-off switch to mount on the battery box. The dealer does - as standard practice - put in a removable 30 amp fuse in the positive battery wire to serve as a cheap disconnect in the interim.

- the mattress on the A122 had no support - I could feel the plywood beneath the mattress. The TBHW has the opposite problem - the mattresses are too firm for decent sleeping. Will need to add mattress topper(s), and figure a way to store during the day.

- the dormer is difficult to set up/pull down without a step stool for us (69" and 64"). However, the window in the dormer is very nice and gives great cross ventilation. The dormer window is high enough to have the curtains open without outsiders being able to look in.

- the higher cabinets and the increased headroom over the bed are just as great as we thought they would be. However, I can no longer see over the top of the camper through the rear view mirror when towing.

- the sink drain is now a standard garden hose fitting. No adapter needed! A short piece of hose and a bucket, and I'm good to go.

- the electric roof raise is supposedly improved for much longer life. Also has an electric plug for easy removal. It is nice to partially open the roof in the garage (can't open all the way) to crawl access the interior while stored. High wall makes crawling not so bad.

- came with 14" LR D Castle Rock tires. They have combined rating of over 4,000lbs (max gross is 3350 I believe, uvw is 2630). Speed rating is 75 MPH. I will still keep a close eye on them in light of other reported experiences. I intend to have them balanced.

- dealer has FR remove electric tongue jack and substitute decent quality manual jack to prevent issues on their orders. I like the sturdier manual jack compared to the one on the A122. And handle moves in vertical plane instead of horizontal - no more knuckles hitting the propane tank cover.

Looking forward to camping once a month.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[OYO]

Congrats Fred. Sounds like a keeper. I'm glad (and jealous) to hear of some of the improvements FR has made.

The WFCO will go to trickle, eventually.

Enjoy!

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by OYO

The WFCO will go to trickle, eventually.
Enjoy!

Thank you. Pretty sure it will never go into trickle mode, which makes 2 for 2 (the WFCO in the A122 had the same problem). WFCO specs say 44 hours without significant change in current output, it should go to trickle mode.

Didn't pay attention with the A122, and ran a battery low on water, causing a cell to fail. I'm not making that mistake again. Will be ordering the PD4135 replacement for the WFCO converter this weekend unless I suddenly see 13.2V. Installing the PD converter will give me a chance to correct some of the electrical connections I'm skeptical of.

Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[lcangler]

Can you explain the trickle charge issue with the WFCO converter in non technical, electrical challenged person friendly terms. Not quite understanding what is or is not happening.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by lcangler

Can you explain the trickle charge issue with the WFCO converter in non technical, electrical challenged person friendly terms. Not quite understanding what is or is not happening.

Battery Chargers aka Converters in RV's have 3 basic modes.

Bulk, Absorption and Float charge ranges. They are roughly 14.4 volts, 13.6 volts and 13.2 volts.

When a battery is discharged to say 60% the charger is supposed to charge at the Bulk rate until it reaches ~ 80%-90% of full charge, then it goes to the Absorption charge until the battery is fully charged. Once fully charged it supposed to switch to Float mode to keep the battery topped up. If it stays in Absorption mode it will over charge the battery and eventually boil all the water out of it and ruin it.

WFCO units are notorious for not behaving properly, there have been many different things tried to get them to work properly. Things like using heavier cables and moving the batteries or charger to get them closer together to reduce the amount of voltage loss. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Progressive Dynamics builds a better unit that behaves itself and does what it is designed to do.

Also WFCO has a failure rate that is probably well above the industry average for a basic component, but no one knows for sure. I have had several WFCO crap out on me over the years, two in the same unit less than a year apart, both were replaced under warranty... eventually. The third time it started going flaky I yanked it and put a PD unit in and never looked back. My current rig has a WFCO, it will be replaced with a PD in the near future.

Aaron

[pgandw]

Aaron

Thank you. I couldn't have explained it better myself.

I have never been able to find the WFCO cut-in or cut-out points for bulk mode. Only the 44 hour spec for trickle (float) mode.

Fred W

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by pgandw

Aaron

Thank you. I couldn't have explained it better myself.

I have never been able to find the WFCO cut-in or cut-out points for bulk mode. Only the 44 hour spec for trickle (float) mode.

Fred W

They used to have the cut in/out points on their website somewhere. I don't know if I have ever seen a WFCO actually work properly. Been messing around with RVs for close to 40 years, I can still remember the single stage chargers, annual battery replacement was considered normal.

Aaron [emoji41]

[lcangler]

Aaron[/QUOTE]

Thank you. I guess I have one in my 2018 A213. I Will keep an eye on things.

[farmgirl]

I have an A122, Rockwood, and interested to hear about the converter. I am sure mine isn't working either, how much is a new one that you are putting in cost? Also will have to hire someone to do it.
I am also trying to go to as many VT state parks as I can, even if my husband isn't that excited 😐

[pgandw]

The Progressive Dynamics 4135 is a "drop in" replacement for the WFCO 8735P. I just ordered mine from Amazon for $144. Actually, the PD is slightly smaller than the WFCO. I had to put pieces of trim on either side and some 1x2 (or 1/2" plywood) to hold the mounting screws.

Having someone else do it for you is not going to be cheap because unless he is very familiar with FR wiring, he is going to have to identify each circuit before moving it from the WFCO to the PD distribution panel. It's not difficult work, but it is time consuming. It took me about 8 hours, but I'm kind of slow and anal about this kind of work. I cut over each circuit one at a time, and tested before I went on to the next.

I also got rid of the mass of wire nuts joining the negative DC wires, and took them all to a bus bar, so that took some time, too.

There are some sticky posts at the top of the A-frame forum that contain more details about the circuits in the FR A-frames.

You don't need to swap out the converter if you never use a generator to recharge your batteries, and you disconnect your battery after a week or so at home (plugged in). The problem with the WFCO converters not switching modes is considerably longer recharge times, and frying the battery if left to charge it for more than a week or two.

hope this helps
Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame (sold in July)
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

[wahoonc]

Fred just gave you the best answer!

I am swapping mine out (happens to be in a motor home) because ours stays plugged up 24/7 when we are at home. We leave the air on in the summer to keep the humidity down, and run a small space heater in the colder months. I check my batteries monthly and top the water up as needed. So far so good, but I just don't trust the WFCO units anymore. I strongly suspect that the main reason you see so many of them is the price to the OEM market. I had an electronic/electrical engineer buddy of mine take a look at the WFCO and the equivalent PD and in his opinion the PD was better assembled and more robust unit. I know I have put PDs in several different RVs (not all mine) and have never had an issue with any of them.

Aaron

[NMWildcat]

And then there are those of us that have no problems with our WFCO converters. We boondock a lot, keep the RV plugged in when not out in it, and WFCO performs fantastic.

So give it a chance before you spend $$$ on something you might not need.

[lcangler]

[QUOTE=pgandw;1903967]

You don't need to swap out the converter if you never use a generator to recharge your batteries,

I understood everything but this quote? What does using a generator have to do with the converter not working properly vs what the new one would do?

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by lcangler

You don't need to swap out the converter if you never use a generator to recharge your batteries,

I understood everything but this quote? What does using a generator have to do with the converter not working properly vs what the new one would do?

My faulty WFCO converter puts out 13.7V, period. It won't shift into bulk or trickle mode.

This has no impact if you camp with shore power.

If you dry camp and recharge your batteries using a generator and the WFCO, the failure to go into bulk mode increases the generator run time to achieve 90% SOC from about 3-4 hours to somewhere about 9 hours. The battery recharges at 13.7V, just not as quickly as it can.

The PD replacement (PD4135) charges in bulk mode (14.4V) until 90% SOC, and then it switches to 13.7V for about 42 hours. After the 42 hours, the PD goes into trickle mode at 13.2V to maintain the battery long term.

For NMWildcat, I'm glad to hear yours works fine. I'm now 0 for 2 with WFCO converters working correctly.

Hope this helps
Fred W

[farmgirl]

Thanks for your reply. We do dry camp mostly, but it sounds like quite a job! It is helpful to know what it might be to get it done.

[MontyPP]

YouTube is your friend. There are several showing the process.GoingNowhereFast swapped his in his Aliner. So similar but not the same.

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by pgandw

Having someone else do it for you is not going to be cheap because unless he is very familiar with FR wiring, he is going to have to identify each circuit before moving it from the WFCO to the PD distribution panel. It's not difficult work, but it is time consuming. It took me about 8 hours, but I'm kind of slow and anal about this kind of work. I cut over each circuit one at a time, and tested before I went on to the next.

hope this helps
Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame (sold in July)
2008 Hyundai Entourage minivan
camping Colorado and adjacent states one weekend at a time

Hmm. Different trailer, a Cherokee 38P, but I replaced a WFCO 8955 with a Power Dynamics 4655. This was also a drop-in and I bought just the refit parts: the converter and DC distribution/fuse board, without the outer housing and AC breakers.

First I replaced the converter board. I wanted to use the existing stickers for the DC fuses so I wouldn't have to chase everything down, so I left the WFCO distribution board connected. Then I held the PD distribution board alongside and transferred the wires, one circuit at a time, working from the top down. Then I connected the converter and battery wires and mounted the distribution board. It didn't take much more than an hour.

Larry

[pgandw]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

Hmm. Different trailer, a Cherokee 38P, but I replaced a WFCO 8955 with a Power Dynamics 4655. This was also a drop-in and I bought just the refit parts: the converter and DC distribution/fuse board, without the outer housing and AC breakers.

First I replaced the converter board. I wanted to use the existing stickers for the DC fuses so I wouldn't have to chase everything down, so I left the WFCO distribution board connected. Then I held the PD distribution board alongside and transferred the wires, one circuit at a time, working from the top down. Then I connected the converter and battery wires and mounted the distribution board. It didn't take much more than an hour.

Larry

Unfortunately, the WFCO 8735 and the PD 4135 are not as modular as the bigger versions. The converter appears to be hard-wired in, and not a separate board, as in the bigger versions. So there is no migration without replacing the whole distribution panel. I migrated all the AC circuits (5) to the new panel re-using the existing breakers first, then the DC circuits (6, re-using existing fuses).

What took me a lot of time was trying to figure out why the WFCO 8735 had 7 fuses in the distribution panel, and the PD only had 6. If I had been smarter, I would have counted output wires sooner and realized that one of the WFCO fuses was for the converter (reverse polarity?) and did not have an output wire.

Somebody who understood the converter and distribution panel wiring better than I probably could have done the job in less than 4 hours (I took 8). And the location of the panel/converter in A-frames - installed in the base of the dinette seat - does not speed things up.

I anticipate 4-6 hours this time.

just my experiences
Fred W
2019 Flagstaff T21TBHW A-frame
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame

[babock]

For everyone replacing the converter module in the power center, consider mounting an external one as close to the batteries as possible and then run the 120V AC cord back to the power center. You will get way less voltage drop that way and the converter will stay in bulk mode longer. Problem is, any voltage drop will not be seen by the converter so it will sense the battery voltage higher than it actually is and drop you out of bulk. The main reason for getting rid of the WFCO in the first place is so that you are actually in bulk mode which the WFCO rarely does.

[OYO]

I guess my WFCO is broke or my battery monitor is bad: