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05-15-2017, 01:23 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SW Oklahoma
Posts: 263
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Disc Brakes - Failure
I am a strong proponent of disc brakes on 5th wheels. The difference in stopping distance is night and day. I currently have them on my 2014 Dynamax Trilogy and had them on my 2008 Cedar Creek.
We were heading to Aurora, Colorado after having spent part of the winter in Arizona and California. We had just left Ely, NV Sunday morning and we were headed to Moab, UT to visit the Arches National Park. After traveling on the loneliest road in America (US 50 in Nevada and Utah) we emerged at I-15. We needed to go about 15 miles North where US 50 turned East again so we could reach I-70 and then continue on to Moab.
We got off the Interstate at our exit and pulled up to get Diesel so we'd have enough to make the remaining part of the trip. I dropped my bride off so she could go get us a hot dog and drink. As I was turning the camper around to get Diesel, my wife motions me over. Says the rear wheels on the camper is making a very loud scraping noise. OK, noted, and I proceeded to fill-up.
After getting the Diesel I pulled up to an auto/truck repair shop right next to the Flying-J where we stopped. I asked the guy to look at the camper wheels while I pulled up a little so we would know which one was having the issue. He identified it and told me to stop. He indicated it was the forward axle/tire on the drivers side. About that time his partner comes over, asks what's going on, and then says lets check it out. They jacked up the axle and pulled the wheel off.
Compare the pictures.
I have a high-end ($$$$$$$) suspension and disc brakes on the camper. Well, the disc brake pad was scraping on the inside of the wheel. Note I said pad, not pads. There should be two but one was missing and the other was hanging out, scraping! Also, a pin that holds the pads in-place was gone as well as a mounting clamp and securing clip. Hmm... you know, we did pass within about 100 miles of Area 51 ...
In the above picture you can see the new cotter pin (shiny on the right) he installed on the good brake assembly so it wouldn't suffer the same demise.
In the picture above you can see the cheap clip either Dexter or Dynamax installed to secure the pin that goes through the disc pad retaining clamp. You can also see it has a couple of shiny spots on it where it was rubbing and would soon fail.
Then to top it off, while inspecting the damage to the mag wheel from the scraping, one of the guys noted the tread on the tire was starting to separate Goodyear G114's (P215/75R17.5) You could tell by the wear pattern and also the steel belts starting to show. Oh my, cha-ching! This was the 2nd tire with this issue, a third one was found to be in progress of doing the same thing. So, 4 new tires at $440 each (Cooper Load Range H) and no idea on the cost to fix the brakes yet.
One of the guys calls his cousin who is an auto parts store owner. The cousin goes to the shop (It's Sunday so shop is closed) to see if he has the parts we need, in stock. No dice. They have to be ordered Monday morning and will be here either Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday afternoon. Won't know for sure until the call in the order tomorrow morning.
Meantime back at the ranch ... We are somewhat boon docking tonight. We are parked at the repair shop on a cement pad. The repair shop gave us some electrical to use and free use of his property to stay until the repair is complete. Sure was nice of him!!
Fortunately we had just driven through 5 or 6 mountain passes between 7,400' and 7,700' and did not lose the braking action. Pretty sad when a part is used to save money over a simple cotter pin that would have done a better job.
Bottom line, if you have Dexter hubs/disc brakes you better get yours inspected immediately before you have a similar or worse disaster!
John
__________________
2014 Dynamax Trilogy 3850RL - South Hampton Interior, Full Body Paint (Black / Silver / White), MOR/ryde Independent Suspension, MOR/ryde Disc Brakes, ONAN 5500 Generator, Progressive Industries HW50C w/Dual Display, Winegard HD Dish w/DirecTV, Washer & Dryer, iSprings 7-stage Reverse Osmosis Water Filter, Trail-Air Flex Air Pin Box, Third AC installed, AC Voltage/Amp Meters, DC Amp Meter, Garnett See Level Tank Sensors, TST 507 TPMS
Retired USAF - Full Timers!
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05-15-2017, 02:36 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,401
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Glad you found this before things got to bad and also you finding a shop and a place to stay, good luck on the repair and keep us posted.
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05-15-2017, 02:40 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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There is no force pulling against that pin.
The clip installed is adequate. Improper installation would be my first guess.
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2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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05-15-2017, 02:42 PM
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#4
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Pickin', Campin', Mason
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: South Western PA
Posts: 19,051
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As bad as that 'could' have been... look how fortunate you are that things fell into place like they did. Best of luck.
__________________
2022 Cedar Creek 345IK 5th Wheel•Solar & Inverter•2017 Ford F-Series SCREW 4x4•Factory Puck•B&W Companion•TST Tire Monitor w/Repeater•Sinemate 3500w Gen.
F&AM Lodge 358 Somerset, PA - JAFFA Shrine - Altoona, PA
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05-15-2017, 03:43 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
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If this is the same "upgrade" Dexter was doing...there was a problem in "05
Dexter hydraulic disc brake problem - 5thWheelForums.com
__________________
2017 Puma 297RLSS
2005 Ram 2500 4X4 diesel SMOKER!!
I love puns, irony and tasteless jokes...
born in Texas.... live in Arkansas
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05-15-2017, 03:59 PM
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#6
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Mod free 5er
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny kustom
There is no force pulling against that pin.
The clip installed is adequate. Improper installation would be my first guess.
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X2, that clip is more expensive than a cotter pin. Head of the pin should be toward the wheel, the clip should stick out in space.
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05-15-2017, 04:05 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
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IMO real brakes have at least "nibs" on the back of the pads to help prevent pads coming out or better they have a "forked" type and to go around an area of the caliper or bracket. Bad design?? I think so. Proprietary to Dexter? I dunno. Prolly not.
I am not sure of the "repair" for this problem.
1. get the best quality bolt or pin I could find and replace that crap
2. add some type of bracket between the two caliper pieces(manufactured)
3. enter crappy comment... have them change to a manufacturer who knows how to design and build...most important..test the brakes.
OK I have had kind of a bad day and this kind of crap makes it worse.
I am no expert, but I sold this kind of stuff for 25 years and went to MANY brake classes. Light and heavy duty.
__________________
2017 Puma 297RLSS
2005 Ram 2500 4X4 diesel SMOKER!!
I love puns, irony and tasteless jokes...
born in Texas.... live in Arkansas
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05-15-2017, 04:12 PM
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#8
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Mod free 5er
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwannacamp
IMO real brakes have at least "nibs" on the back of the pads to help prevent pads coming out or better they have a "forked" type and to go around an area of the caliper or bracket. Bad design?? I think so. Proprietary to Dexter? I dunno. Prolly not.
I am not sure of the "repair" for this problem.
1. get the best quality bolt or pin I could find and replace that crap
2. add some type of bracket between the two caliper pieces(manufactured)
3. enter crappy comment... have them change to a manufacturer who knows how to design and build...most important..test the brakes.
OK I have had kind of a bad day and this kind of crap makes it worse.
I am no expert, but I sold this kind of stuff for 25 years and went to MANY brake classes. Light and heavy duty.
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What is pictured is a pretty much standard disc brake assembly. If the pin was installed backwards, that is not a design flaw.
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05-15-2017, 04:20 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwannacamp
IMO real brakes have at least "nibs" on the back of the pads to help prevent pads coming out or better they have a "forked" type and to go around an area of the caliper or bracket. Bad design?? I think so. Proprietary to Dexter? I dunno. Prolly not.
I am not sure of the "repair" for this problem.
1. get the best quality bolt or pin I could find and replace that crap
2. add some type of bracket between the two caliper pieces(manufactured)
3. enter crappy comment... have them change to a manufacturer who knows how to design and build...most important..test the brakes.
OK I have had kind of a bad day and this kind of crap makes it worse.
I am no expert, but I sold this kind of stuff for 25 years and went to MANY brake classes. Light and heavy duty.
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Not possible on a fixed caliper design.
Only on " floating " calipers.
__________________
2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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05-15-2017, 04:22 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,024
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Sure looks like a twin piston Girling style to me (same as Fords uses on their Superduty). I'd say a bad install of the retainer pin.
I do not like the cotter in the retainer pin at all. Cotters are soft metal. Tha haripin is tempered steel.
I'd say bad install too. I'd have a look at the backside of the rotor where the pucks have been 'machining' it as well.
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05-15-2017, 05:05 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,464
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The fords still use a floating caliper.
These are fixed. Pistons on both sides.
Toyota uses them, along with most high performance vehicles.
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2017 Dynamax Isata 4
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05-15-2017, 05:57 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SW Oklahoma
Posts: 263
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I can't say if it was a bad install or not, since I am not the one who installed it. This was an OEM installation by Dynamax.
After reading the posts on the 5thwheel forum, it seems Dexter has had this issue in the past with other types of retention bolts using locking nuts.
Personally, I don't care if it was a bad install. My issue is it failed on me while we were in the mountains and we were fortunate there was only damage to the wheel and brakes, and not to us.
We have now changed the other three clips out and installed cotter pins. They are snug in the end of the retainer bolt. If they break, then so be it. Using a flimsy clip that wears through is not a good solution. All three of the other clips have wear showing they were rubbing and were susceptible to failure. The three remaining brake assemblies had the retention pin installed from the outside to the inside.
Can't find replacement parts in Utah. Pinched off the brake line for that wheel and we'll head out tomorrow. Parts are being shipped from Dexter direct to my son's house and we'll finish the repair.
Who said that going on vacation with an RV saves you money?? Obviously it was marketing folks for the RV business that never used an RV
__________________
2014 Dynamax Trilogy 3850RL - South Hampton Interior, Full Body Paint (Black / Silver / White), MOR/ryde Independent Suspension, MOR/ryde Disc Brakes, ONAN 5500 Generator, Progressive Industries HW50C w/Dual Display, Winegard HD Dish w/DirecTV, Washer & Dryer, iSprings 7-stage Reverse Osmosis Water Filter, Trail-Air Flex Air Pin Box, Third AC installed, AC Voltage/Amp Meters, DC Amp Meter, Garnett See Level Tank Sensors, TST 507 TPMS
Retired USAF - Full Timers!
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05-15-2017, 06:17 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
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Disc Brakes - Failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hagen
I can't say if it was a bad install or not, since I am not the one who installed it. This was an OEM installation by Dynamax.
After reading the posts on the 5thwheel forum, it seems Dexter has had this issue in the past with other types of retention bolts using locking nuts.
Personally, I don't care if it was a bad install. My issue is it failed on me while we were in the mountains and we were fortunate there was only damage to the wheel and brakes, and not to us.
We have now changed the other three clips out and installed cotter pins. They are snug in the end of the retainer bolt. If they break, then so be it. Using a flimsy clip that wears through is not a good solution. All three of the other clips have wear showing they were rubbing and were susceptible to failure. The three remaining brake assemblies had the retention pin installed from the outside to the inside.
Can't find replacement parts in Utah. Pinched off the brake line for that wheel and we'll head out tomorrow. Parts are being shipped from Dexter direct to my son's house and we'll finish the repair.
Who said that going on vacation with an RV saves you money?? Obviously it was marketing folks for the RV business that never used an RV
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I'm with the other poster....imo. Get the cotters out. They are to soft. Try to bend on of the spring pins
Also. If you pinched the rubber hose...and you haven't planned...chunk it too.
__________________
2017 Puma 297RLSS
2005 Ram 2500 4X4 diesel SMOKER!!
I love puns, irony and tasteless jokes...
born in Texas.... live in Arkansas
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05-15-2017, 06:20 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny kustom
Not possible on a fixed caliper design.
Only on " floating " calipers.
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I assume you mean the bracket I mentioned? Being it's a fixed caliper then you would be able to. I don't really think the OP wants to re-engineer.
__________________
2017 Puma 297RLSS
2005 Ram 2500 4X4 diesel SMOKER!!
I love puns, irony and tasteless jokes...
born in Texas.... live in Arkansas
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05-15-2017, 06:30 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas
Posts: 1,387
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My MORryde IS DISC brakes use old GM brake pads that are available at any part house. since you have the same Morryde I would assume you have the same brakes. they gave me a disc brake info sheet telling that info. If you are wearing your tires you need a Lazer alignment
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2005 Cedar Creek 30RLBS/TrailAir Hitch/ MORryde 7K IS/Disc Brakes/ PI PT-50 EMS/ RV Flex Armor Roof
2015 RAM 3500 DRW 6.7 Cummins 3.42/ Garmin 760RV
40 Gal TransferFlow fuel tank/ TST 507
Amateur Radio W5CI 2019 Days Camping 25
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05-15-2017, 06:34 PM
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#16
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Mod free 5er
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hagen
...We have now changed the other three clips out and installed cotter pins. They are snug in the end of the retainer bolt. If they break, then so be it. Using a flimsy clip that wears through is not a good solution. All three of the other clips have wear showing they were rubbing and were susceptible to failure. The three remaining brake assemblies had the retention pin installed from the outside to the inside...
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The cotter pins are much softer than the spring clips. I would temporarily use a short roll pin instead of a cotter pin.
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05-15-2017, 10:00 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SW Oklahoma
Posts: 263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W5CI
My MORryde IS DISC brakes use old GM brake pads that are available at any part house. since you have the same Morryde I would assume you have the same brakes. they gave me a disc brake info sheet telling that info. If you are wearing your tires you need a Lazer alignment
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The MOR/ryde IS was installed by Dynamax. I don't know if MOR/ryde (at their service center) is installing the Dexter Hubs or another brand.
The tires were only showing funny wear in the very middle tread. It's wearing like hills and valleys. All other treads were wearing fine. This is (was) true for 3 of the tires, all still in their OEM positions. I don't rotate them.
Oh oh, now I am going to hear from the tire police about how I should rotate them but I choose not to.
I should also mention that the tires/brakes/axles have over 25K actual miles on them as of this writing.
John
__________________
2014 Dynamax Trilogy 3850RL - South Hampton Interior, Full Body Paint (Black / Silver / White), MOR/ryde Independent Suspension, MOR/ryde Disc Brakes, ONAN 5500 Generator, Progressive Industries HW50C w/Dual Display, Winegard HD Dish w/DirecTV, Washer & Dryer, iSprings 7-stage Reverse Osmosis Water Filter, Trail-Air Flex Air Pin Box, Third AC installed, AC Voltage/Amp Meters, DC Amp Meter, Garnett See Level Tank Sensors, TST 507 TPMS
Retired USAF - Full Timers!
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05-15-2017, 10:02 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SW Oklahoma
Posts: 263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCoot
The cotter pins are much softer than the spring clips. I would temporarily use a short roll pin instead of a cotter pin.
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When I arrive in Denver, I will look at the cotter pins when I install the new parts. That will give them about 500+ miles to demonstrate any signs of significant wear. All I know for sure is I am not going to use them flimsy clips.
John
__________________
2014 Dynamax Trilogy 3850RL - South Hampton Interior, Full Body Paint (Black / Silver / White), MOR/ryde Independent Suspension, MOR/ryde Disc Brakes, ONAN 5500 Generator, Progressive Industries HW50C w/Dual Display, Winegard HD Dish w/DirecTV, Washer & Dryer, iSprings 7-stage Reverse Osmosis Water Filter, Trail-Air Flex Air Pin Box, Third AC installed, AC Voltage/Amp Meters, DC Amp Meter, Garnett See Level Tank Sensors, TST 507 TPMS
Retired USAF - Full Timers!
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05-15-2017, 10:48 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
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__________________
2017 Puma 297RLSS
2005 Ram 2500 4X4 diesel SMOKER!!
I love puns, irony and tasteless jokes...
born in Texas.... live in Arkansas
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05-16-2017, 12:01 AM
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#20
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Just as confused as you
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: south central Wisconsin
Posts: 5,108
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It looks to me if there is room for a flat stainless washer it would keep vibration from wearing on the pin. Just a suggestion.
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Richard & Jill
2014 Flagstaff 832IKBS Classic Super Lite
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