35QB4 Outside Kitchen

[kevcher95]

The outside kitchen on my 2012 unit does not have any water shutoffs to secure water to the outside kitchen during winter camping. To me this is a accident waiting to happen. I would like to be able to charge the water pipes in the camper but not to the outside kitchen since the plumbing is not protected at all from the cold. There is about 6 inches of riged pipe coming out from below the unit that feeds the flex piping for the actual kitchen plumbing where I could install some shutoffs pretty easily but those 6 inches of pipe would still be unprotected. I have not torn the underbelly off yet to trace the plumbing back to find a better spot to secure the water but might have to. Anyone else find a solution for this potential problem.

[dlturner00]

Wow. Haven't even thought about that. We don't do much winter camping but you never know. I'm going to have to take a look at that. Thanks for pointing that out.

[kevcher95]

Roger that, We don't winter camp to much either but we do push November sometimes which gets pretty chilly. I like to be prepared, enclosed underbelly, and Heated tanks are only as good as the weakest link. Tried to get a plumbing schematic from FR as well to no avail.

[golfmedik]

Our 2011 Sandpiper came the same way. I complained, very loudly I might say, to the factory rep. When we ordered our 2012 Sandpiper, they put cut-offs under the rear bathroom sink so we could winter camp. The line feeding our outside kitchen went to the rear bath first. So, they put cut-offs under the sink and a drain near the rear kitchen sink. We drain it, winterize the coach, turn off cut off to outside kitchen, and then if we go camping(usually do), we then leave the rear cut offs in the off position and flush out the coach. IT then stays winterized and the exposed lines won't freeze. Our dealer did not want to put them on our 2011, but you or your dealer may do just that. Now all of the Sandpipers and Sierras come that way. It should be a straight forward mod, just a little time consuming if you had to drop the belly. I didn't do our first one due to it being under warranty and raising so much h**l with the factory. Just locate the water line, under the belly, going to the rear kitchen, and put a cut-off in it. The only thing is, is that it must be out of reach of cold air due to one side of the cut off being exposed to water. I'm not familiar with your floor plan, but you may be able to put one under the main kitchen sink and put you a drain down through the belly there. Hope this helps stir some thinking. They should've all been done like that from the factory. If you want pics, let me know and I will show you how and where the factory did my new one.

[TURBS]

Just a thought but why couldn't you just suck antifreeze through the pump and only turn on outside kitchen taps ?
Antifreeze would only be in hot and cold line to outside kitchen.
Of course you would have to bypass Hw heater while doing it then UN bypass it after.
thoughts?
Ron

[golfmedik]

Ok, I went and looked at your floor plan. It is very similar to mine now and just like my 2011 Sandpiper 355QBQ. With that being said, I went out and took a couple of pictures to show what I was taking about in the previous post. THis is how it looks under my half bath sink.

You can see the main water line coming up through the floor going to the rear sink. In that those lines, they put a T in place and put a cut-off on the branch side going out to the rear kitchen(white line). That is how I turn off water to my outside kitchen for winter use. I looks a little cramped as far as getting in there to it, but they did it, so you should be able to.
Another pic.

Here are the drain lines sticking through the bottom of the camper under the rear bath. There are 2 more Ts (one for each line)under the belly, with the drain tubes coming off the branch side of the T and sticking through the bottom of the camper and sealed.

I hope this will help you guys so you can figure out how to make it work.
Monty

[golfmedik]

Originally Posted by f1100turbo

Just a thought but why couldn't you just suck antifreeze through the pump and only turn on outside kitchen taps ?
Antifreeze would only be in hot and cold line to outside kitchen.
Of course you would have to bypass Hw heater while doing it then UN bypass it after.
thoughts?
Ron

You can do that, but then you will have to let the other faucets rinse out the antifreeze to the others or it will taste funny. Even then, after a lot of use, it will suck a little of the antifreeze out over time. Then you don't know what your protection level is.

Sorry, I burst into your forum here guys(some get ill when owners of other campers intrude into their category), I thought I could give you some ideas as to how to remedy the situation. On my '11, I was just like you because I camp in the NC mountains in the winter. I got by twice by using an electric blanket covering the entire bottom of the kitchen slide and plugging it into the outside outlet. How I did that I'll never know, because I hadn't thought about the outside kitchen faucets until I got up there and it was going to 14* that night. But it worked. When I got home is when I had a little heart to heart talk with the dealer and the factory rep.
I'll help you guys anyway I can because I once faced your dilemma.
Monty

[kevcher95]

Thanks for the Reply's all. Golfmedik, thanks for the effort with the pics they are great. Funny your first picture is exactly what I expected to see when I looked under the rear bathroom sink, putting a shutoff there makes perfect sence. Unfortunately, I just have the hot and cold line coming in to the rear bathroom sink(picture attached), which is tee'd off of the same line coming thru the kitchen floor feeding the kitchen sink. The second pic is of the lines feeding the outside kitchen from the underbelly, you see they gave me drains but no shutoff, I think putting one there would not be safe anyway unless I used heat tape or something like that to keep the exposed red and blue pipe ends from freezing. I'm thinking the feed lines to the outside kitchen might be tee'd off in the underbelly where hot/cold lines come thru the kitchen floor to feed the inside kithen and second bathroom. I'll keep digging.

[golfmedik]

On our 355 we had, I thought about putting them under the underbelly but then never did. I wondered if I could've put a 'flap' in the belly material, to reach up in there to turn the tees on and off, but I wondered how much cold air would get up in it. Ended up trading to the 365 then and didn't have to worry about it. Let us know how you resolve this. There are a LOT of people out there with your same problem, they just haven't thought about it yet!

[kevcher95]

Appologize in advance for the long rambling message....Well did some more digging tonight, not happy with what I found. There is a hot line and a cold line running from the control panel across the width of the camper behind the underbelly storage wall. The two pipes go thru the floor and head aft just under the stairs that lead up to the topside bedroom. They run back under the floor in the insulation to the kitchen where a T is used under the kitchen floor, one branch feeds the kitchen sink, and the rear bathroom sink, and the remaining branch feeds the rear kitchen. There is one other T used in the cold line that is just above the rear outside steps that feed the rear toilet. I had to cut into the outside protective membrane and into the insulation to find this last connection. I'm thinking for the cost I would like to elbow the cold line (Rather than the current T) to continue to feed the rear toilet, and then T off the rear sink similar to Golfmedik's pic to feed the rear kitchen adding a shut off under the bathroom sink.

The Hot line is a bit harder, since the rear kitchen is the only destination from the front kitchen T that I can’t really get to it without cutting another hole in the insulation in the wheel well. I think I want to feed the rear kitchen from the hot line that is currently feeding the rear bathroom sink so I can add a shutoff there that I can easily get to, and then pull the hot line up that is under the floor to feed the rear bathroom sink. Kinda convoluted but then both lines terminate at a sink so I can blow the lines out in winter and I have shutoffs under the rear bathroom sink to shut off the rear kitchen while still keeping the rest of the campers water system charged. Pic’s are the pipes where I accessed then running under the floor above the rear steps that run to the rear kitchen and the toilet.

Also thinking of another option…going with the “get loud” route that golfmedic mentioned and calling the dealer/forest River to have them fix this issue..having to do all this myself for a 6 month old camper at this price point, that is still under warranty is not cool, even though nothing has failed yet this is a obvious design issue they missed the mark on in my opinion.

[TURBS]

Did I miss something or was this unit sold with an arctic pack option?

If not how is this a design flaw?
If they didn't market the with arctic pack option then I'm not sure where forest river did anything wrong.

Just trying to understand.
Ron

[golfmedik]

Originally Posted by f1100turbo

Did I miss something or was this unit sold with an arctic pack option?

If not how is this a design flaw?
If they didn't market the with arctic pack option then I'm not sure where forest river did anything wrong.

Just trying to understand.
Ron

When I bought mine I knew they were not going to want to correct mine using this very point, so I had saved my original brochure for the 2011 that said 'All season'..That is why I got so vocal with them. They were still trying to decide how to fix it when I traded the unit. I believe that is why my new Sandpiper and the following ones came this way. I had a LONG discussion with the factory rep while ordering the 365 and told him it would not be taken if it came in without some sort of cut off for the rear kitchen. My dealer was even trying to figure out a way to do it. Good luck. Stay on them and make them do it. I still think there are a lot of people in your shoes, they just haven't noticed it yet!

[kevcher95]

Turbo, did not really say they did something "wrong" really, I said design issue. I did special order this coach and no "artic option" was available, however everything offered in this type of package was pretty much standard, enclosed and insulated underbelly, All six tanks with electric heating controlled by a switch, and thermostat, upgraded insulation, cold room tested, R-38 in ceiling and floor, 2 layers of insulation, all 5 sides of each slide out insulated. Marketing material describes 10 hour testing at 0 degrees .......I mean why bother giving me heated tanks when there is around 8-10 feet of pipe in the rear kitchen that has "zero insulation" over the plumbing and has 100 percent exposed pipes. Really, I don't care that that there is no insulation on the pipes because 99 percent of my winter camping if it is 32 degrees or below out I will have my butt cooking inside...Just should have given me a way to isolate the kitchen out of the system in the winter so I could use the rest of the plumbing in the entire coach. Your only as safe as your weakest link, if a pipe bursts in the outside kitchen and I'm done. Thanks

[MIFarmer]

This old thread just saved me a headache. I ran across it when I was studying up on our currently-on-order Silverback 35QB4. Long story short, I brought up the unprotected outside kitchen lines to my dealer, who contacted the manufacturer, and the word back was that they will put in a set of shut-offs for me. So, thanks to Kevcher95 if you're still watching.

We'll see what I end up with here in a few weeks...

[golfmedik]

Here is a pic of the cut-off I asked to be put in after our 355QBQ did not have. I was VERY unhappy with FR on that model for that. They put these on the 365SAQ as a condition of my order. Makes it really easy to winterize and then shut them off, only problem is the outside kitchen can't be used in cold weather. But I love to winter camp, so we make do with the inside kitchen . One thing I did do in the 355 for several nights is I put an electric blanket over the bottom of the slide and it kept the water lines from freezing in 8* weather for 3 days. No water got to it.

[MIFarmer]

That ^ configuration is what I suggested. I guess we'll see how receptive they are to my suggestion.

[MIFarmer]

Well, Cedar Creek's interpretation of adding a set of valves to be able to shut off the outside kitchen to prevent its freezing is this:



That would be two plastic valves on the outside of the camper, completely unprotected from the cold. And it only cost me an additional $250 have this done.

Completely clueless. And they had the audacity to refer to the $250 as an "Engineering Fee." I'm sorta curious as to what other "engineering" tidbits I might find as I get to know the camper...