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Old 09-11-2014, 07:55 AM   #1
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towing specs help!

I know this has been discussed but my head is spinning. We are moving up to our first 5th wheel from our 1st TT. I'm a physician with OCD tendencies like everyone else but this makes no sense and I can't seem to find a consensus. I have a 2013 Ford F-250 4WD crew cab SRW 6.7L diesel with a short bed (156 WB). 3.55 axle ratio. The door jamb states a 2100 lb cargo capacity with a 10,000 lb GVWR leaving a truck weight of around 7900 lbs but the payload capacity on the brochure is 3250 lbs. That's the first discrepancy and the payload probably applies to the axle rating. The truck actually weighs 8020 lbs with 1 person and a full tank of gas. Adding in my wife, dog, hitch(200 lbs), 2 portable Honda generators with extra gas(200 lbs) and other gear, let's say 8700 lbs for the truck. That leaves 1300 from the GVWR which will be the pin weight from the 5th wheel. Knowing that this accounts for around 20%, that allows me to tow a 6500 lb loaded trailer. Subtracting 2 full propane tanks(100 lbs), water if you need to carry it(500 lbs) and maybe 200 lbs of stuff (weekend tailgaters and campers), that leaves a dry weight of 5700 lbs. According to that logic, I'm probably overweight with my Rockwood Ultralite. I better stick to popup campers. Coming at this from a more realistic perspectve, the GCWR is 23,500 lbs with a max 5th wheel rating of 15,900. Subtracting the truck weight (8700) from the GCWR leaves a trailer of 14,800 lbs loaded. Using the same numbers, dry would be 14,000. Reasonable since I see these 3/4 ton trucks pulling big trailers all over not to say that some aren't overloaded. But probably the best and safest method takes into account the rear axle rating of 6100 lbs. My axle weighs 3140 and probably close to 3600 after adding the stuff above. That leaves 2500 for the pin weight which is a 12,500 loaded trailer. I think this is the route I'm going. I know most people probably go by the GCWR and max trailer weight. Safer ones may use the axle method. The GVWR seems completely useless. These people must stay in hotels. Comments?
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:17 AM   #2
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You think too much.

RV Lifestyle Magazine tested the Silverback 29IK with a Toyota Tundra with a 5.7 V8 and said the truck was smooth and steady on the road.

Here's a link to that article. Cedar Creek Silverback 29IK - RV Lifestyle Magazine
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:21 AM   #3
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I have read all kinds of articles on tow weight ratings on trucks and I am so confused I don't care anymore. The spec. on my F350 7.3L says it can tow 20,000 lbs. My 5er dry weight is 13,000 and after loading my stuff probably 15 to 16,000 loaded. so the way I see it I'm under the 20,000 lb. tow rating. I'm probably wrong but until I can understand this and clear up my confusion I am going to keep towing with my truck because it tows what I have just fine.. LOL I'll never figure this out and no one else has really ever been able to explain it clear enough for me to comprehend it. Good luck because I'm confused about all the mumbojumbo.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:34 AM   #4
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I read somewhere on the internet the GVWR for the 6.7 was closer to 15,800. I would call the dealer service department and verify specs for towing a fifth wheel.
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Old 09-11-2014, 10:36 AM   #5
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Found this for a 2008 I was looking at. Yea its only a 6.4 but.... Look at the last page for fifth wheels...

http://www.lesjacobsford.com/links/new/fsd08_towing.pdf
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:30 PM   #6
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OP...just count on your common sense and the eyeball test to determine what is right for you. ..otherwise, the math and gray areas are gonna drive you to tenting! LOL



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Old 09-11-2014, 07:28 PM   #7
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I hesitate to even reply as this topic seems to be a hot button issue for folks...

The brochure payload capacity is calculated by the manufacturer using a base model truck but since you have a diesel engine (and a few other added options I'm sure) your door jamb payload is lower. However, you are correct in that the stickered GVWR minus the payload capacity is equal to the weight of the truck as it rolled off the assembly line.

My main concern when crunching our numbers was ensuring I remained within the payload capacity of the truck...so much so that I traded my F-250 (~1,660 payload capacity per the sticker) for an F-350 with a payload capacity per the sticker of 3,120# to make sure I had the needed payload capacity to carry my estimated loaded pin weight of the 5'er of about 2,200#.

Also, remember to take the weight of your 5th wheel hitch into consideration when running the numbers as it also must be accounted for in the remaining payload capacity of the truck.

Best wishes...
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Old 09-11-2014, 07:47 PM   #8
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Well you found the weak link of the f250. My old 09 f250 psd had an available payload of 1500 lbs. We had to trade it for the 3500 in my Sig to be able to tow the fiver we wanted. Yes you are correct about the payload discrepancy. That is because the brochure payload is for the most stripped down version they can get. Anything in or on your truck counts against payload ie tonneau cover, bed liner, trim package, etc all add up and are subtracted from the payload. Also remember a fifth wheel hitch will easily weigh another 150 lbs that will have to be subtracted. If you are by the numbers like me and want to stay within all of your specs then you will need a truck upgrade. Others will tell you to stay within your gross RAWR and not worry about payload. There are scare stories about insurance companies not covering if found to be outside of specs. That wasn't my worry. My concern was my family's safety. I had already tried towing over payload specs with an SUV and tt. Handling was horrible for me and scared me so I swore never again. That was just my experience.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:19 PM   #9
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Borrel,

I have the exact Truck, Last year traded my 29 ft fifth wheel to a Cedar Creek Silverback model 33RL. Added a set of Timbrens to the rear,No problems. No push, very stable at any speed.Plenty of power. Empty 33RL is about 10,700lbs. Pin about 2015
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:31 PM   #10
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Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator

DO THE MATH. It's very enlightening. Yes it will pull your 5vr for sure,but will it STOP in an emergency situation ? Do you feel comfortable behind the wheel... white knuckles or confidence. How about safety for you and your family and others on the road ? Just me ,but do the math.
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grayfox View Post
Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator

DO THE MATH. It's very enlightening. Yes it will pull your 5vr for sure,but will it STOP in an emergency situation ? Do you feel comfortable behind the wheel... white knuckles or confidence. How about safety for you and your family and others on the road ? Just me ,but do the math.
The trailer brakes stop the trailer, the truck brakes stop the truck. Just like with any truck/5th wheel combination. The f250 and the f350 have the exact same size brakes in the single rear wheel configuration. Nothing I would worry about. Maybe you haven't noticed how many single rear wheel trucks are towing trailers recently?
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:53 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by GOTTOYS View Post
The trailer brakes stop the trailer, the truck brakes stop the truck. Just like with any truck/5th wheel combination. The f250 and the f350 have the exact same size brakes in the single rear wheel configuration. Nothing I would worry about. Maybe you haven't noticed how many single rear wheel trucks are towing trailers recently?
Not exactly a novice at this stuff... just my experience and opinion. I'll leave it go at that.
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Old 09-12-2014, 12:22 AM   #13
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You are one that has drank the Ford koolaid. They grossly missrepresent their stats to sell vehicles. The truck Is capable, but under the new JS08 standards, you will need a n F350 to pull what a Chevy or Dodge 2500 can
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Old 09-12-2014, 01:08 AM   #14
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By what are u basing that?....what specific data?..I only ask because ive been having Js08 discussions with a ford engineer..and would like some real world verifiable data to counter his ducking and dodging. ....

A 350 has the same exact frame/brakes/tranny/cooling/tuning as a 250.....the 450 gets a bigger rotor...and the newer 450 (which I have been told ARE rated JS08) gets several other upgrades to the engine and driveline....

Anyway, back to the OP Question, i have mine over payload right now wirh my 9876lb lacrosse tt and all our junk.....by 28 lbs.....lol...aint much there when they try and cap payload at 10k for classification reasons. ...
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:52 AM   #15
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Trailer brakes do not stop a trailer, they are 4 wheel light drum brakes that are intended for the assistance of stopping with the TV. Will it stop it during a breakaway, lol not sure it has been tested before it has hit a ditch that stopped it. They will slow the trailer down and yes eventually bring it to a stop but they will not stop a trailer in an emergency or even a reasonable distance in a non emergency situation.

To the OP, I think you have lots of truck there and have no worries about stopping anything you tow behind you. Your issue is payload. Most of your numbers look right but you are off on your numbers when adding propane and other items to the trailer. If you have 2k payload I would be adding all my gear to the trailer leaving only the wife, dog and personal items in with me as you are only adding 20% of the weight for items in the trailer to the payload of the truck through the pin weight. I would say a trailer loaded up at 8500pds would put you almost exactly at your payload capacity with a 1500pd pin weight and 500pds for your family and personal items in the truck. I am also ODC and that's where I would be looking and although I would be under the payload I would be adding airbags to help the truck handle better. May not make any difference but I would have to add them.

Can your truck handle more, most likely and for it being safe it most likely is as your truck is listed to tow a load of 16000pds. Will the largest issue you will have if you were to overload your truck be wearing out a rear end or other parts earlier then if you did not...maybe, I will not speak to the quality of fords. Just be sure not to kid yourself and think of things as only scare stories as bad things do happen to good people. Many people do things and have their own justification for it and have no problems at all feeling the more people they can get to do it makes it more acceptable.

Here is the sad part, your truck could be rated to tow a 13000pd travel trailer with the hitch weight of around 1500pds. I would much rather meet an f250 towing a 13000pd 5th wheel then a 13000pd TT and 99% of the people would prefer to drive the 5th wheel setup over the TT setup. I also think it would be safer but the TT option would be more "legal". Just my opinion.
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Old 09-12-2014, 05:13 AM   #16
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Ford has always been very liberal with their ratings of their trucks. The F250/350 tow ratings are based on their own, not so stringent, requirements. This is why they had to go the the F450 to try and compete with Ram in the towing department, or completely redesigned the F250/350 frame, suspension, and brakes. This would however validate what various testers, and competitors have been saying all along. My personal experience owning both an 06, and an 11, F 350 reiterates the test data.
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Old 09-12-2014, 07:48 AM   #17
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OCD

OP (Borrell),
As a medical scientist of some sort I must assume you understand liability.
That's what the basis of this topic is mostly about. The rest is all about safety.
As for the OCD part, welcome to the club. So after I got past the fact that you posted in the Cedar Creek section and your subject is about your TV... I offer the following:
Find your towing needs addressed at:
fleet.ford.com
Use a scale to obtain your actual axle, pin and if available, individual wheel weights.
Don't forget your tire capacities.
Armed with facts, determine the risk and liability YOU are willing to accept.
Let you conscience and your wallet be your guide.

I had an F250 CC SB PSD. When I bough my Creek I found that I needed to replace my rear tires & wheels as the 17" E rated tires were not suitable.
So I upgraded to an F350 DRW SC LB PSD with the factory 5th wheel tow package and hitch. That solved all of my weight issues and added copious quantities of stability, towing ability and economy (3.55:1 will not get you there when towing 10k+.)
So good luck with your non Cedar Creek and be safe.
(OK, I didn't get past it... LOL)
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Old 09-28-2014, 01:26 PM   #18
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The specs for all 3 3/4 ton trucks (Ford, Chevy and Ram) is the same, 10,000 lbs GVWR. So the 2 parameters are way apart and mutually exclusive. Using the GCWR of 23,500, I can tow around 14,500. Using the GVWR, I can tow 6500. They don't make fifth wheels that small. How the manufacturers can come up with these numbers is beyond me. Any truck executives or engineers out there?
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grayfox View Post
Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator

DO THE MATH. It's very enlightening. Yes it will pull your 5vr for sure,but will it STOP in an emergency situation ? Do you feel comfortable behind the wheel... white knuckles or confidence. How about safety for you and your family and others on the road ? Just me ,but do the math.
I have a math degree (however, attained long ago when there were only 19 numbers in the known universe), and I have tried this calculation to no avail.

I have a bumper pull trailer, and am anticipating upgrading to a 5er next year. I bought a 2015 Duramax 2500 Chevy. I can do math all day long, but the math that matters says "If that truck won't pull what they're selling out there today, someone is nuts". It better do it.

Besides, when I enter these numbers best I can, I get a max trailer weight of 5800 lbs. Now that's just silly.
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Old 10-03-2014, 11:58 AM   #20
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When I was first looking to buy a 5th wheeler and a new TV, I used that calculator and I could not believe the way the numbers came out. I eventually got a new Chevy dually diesel and my 37 foot Cedar Creek. I have since had the truck/trailer combo (fully loaded for the road) weighed, both wheel by wheel,axle by axle, and combined. All the numbers are well within the truck and trailer limits.

I don't know why the calculator gave me bad numbers. Maybe I didn't understand the terminology or the instructions. So, I don't trust it. Just my experience.
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